Sign in, say "hi", ... and be welcomed.

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:40 am

Sorry about the embedded video trouble you're having Tony. There could be a number of reasons for problems in the U.K. (marketing decisions, regulations, ...), but if adding a link helps, then that's a good guideline for people to follow. Thanks Bill!! :thumbup:

Jim, your effort in this topic has been monumental. It shines through in everything from your engineering to your video productions. I don't know if your passion comes from a personal loss, but I'm humbled by your dedication and persistence. Thank you very very much.

With regard to regulations, I tend to be aligned with Rick's views on putting decisions in the pilot's hands. But pilots need good information to make those decisions. Your research and videos, Jim, are excellent examples of providing that information and I hope you'll disseminate them widely throughout the hang gliding community (hanggliding.org and ozreport.com).

Thanks also, Jim, for your kindness in mentioning the U.S. Hawks. We are an association of pilots who love flight and your dedication inspires us and makes us proud. I hope to meet you and fly with you some day.

Finally, thanks to Joe Faust for starting this topic and encouraging us to always find a better way.   :salute:
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you will find that opportunity in your own time.
Bob Kuczewski
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 8497
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby Bill Cummings » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:34 pm

Stick with the restraint system Jim. Good work on testing these ideas.
The only caution I see as appropriate would be a warning for near water use or some type of a quick release incorporated. :thumbup:
Bill Cummings
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 3360
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:20 pm
Location: Las Cruces NM 88005 (Region 4)

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby reluctantsparrow » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:06 am

Rick Masters wrote:
Isn't this gross negligence on USHPA's part to not require that adequate wheels be used when flying at USHPA controlled sites?

No.
If you have a better idea, some people will adopt it.
For a cross country purist, wheels add drag and will not be considered.
Hang gliding is the simplest form of flight.
Revel in it.
Anything you add to a simple system opens more pathways for things to go wrong.
The slippery slope doesn't just have wheels and complex restraint devices, it has mandatory tran$ponder$ and $earch and Rescue deposits.
Don't go there.


Been giving this a lot of thought Rick and in principle I agree but when I see sites and the sport itself at risk due to needless injuries that could have been prevented with wheels or some other form of safe splat device I am torn.
There is a lot of Ego in our sport and not everyone who gets into this sport has the same level of awareness in regards to safety. Often the reason for no wheels is to simply look like those super cool cross country pilots and normally I would be inclined to say "oh well", so what if they die trying to look cool? Long live darwin and the survival of the fittest. But when each and every crash put sites at risk? Hmmm....still mulling this over.
I do revel in the freedom of flight. But when enough pilots with inadequate skill levels take off their training wheels to look cool then pound it in thereby putting the local site at risk where do I now launch from to "revel" in the freedom of flight?
Also, When helmets and parachutes are required as safety equipment when wheels could prevent the greater bulk of our injuries does not make any sense to myself.
Still mulling this one over.....RS
reluctantsparrow
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:13 pm
Location: Morton, Wa.

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:20 am

I've over the decade proposed cool wheels via the WWW (wheels when wanted) strategy: Have wheels for launching and landing, but the WWW go hidden during longer flights. Aim to have WWW of low mass and deployable. Many design paths have been suggested; the materialization of a satisfactory WWW choices is in the future. The challenge remains. The smart and cool XC pilot would have WWW; newbies would have WWW and keep the wheels displayed during full flight.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org

View pilots' hang gliding rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
JoeF
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 4686
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby reluctantsparrow » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:26 am

JoeF wrote:I've over the decade proposed cool wheels via the WWW (wheels when wanted) strategy: Have wheels for launching and landing, but the WWW go hidden during longer flights. Aim to have WWW of low mass and deployable. Many design paths have been suggested; the materialization of a satisfactory WWW choices is in the future. The challenge remains. The smart and cool XC pilot would have WWW; newbies would have WWW and keep the wheels displayed during full flight.



WWW....of course, and that still leaves the freedom of choice to the Pilot. I have thought of several wheels and skid designs of low to zero drag that are indeed retractable. Have not posted my designs because I have not created any prototypes as of yet but the wheel does not have to be hidden during longer flights to produce zero drag. In my mind the wheel is asymmetrical with each side of the wheel shaped differently mounted to a bushing on the basetube ( no wear and tear on the basetube).
On one side the wheel is the top of an airfoil, on the other the bottom of the airfoil. After launching the wheel is folded sideways 90 degrees by the pilot until it locks into a position that create enough lift as the glider flies to overcome its own drag. Deployment of the wheel is simple, the pilot hits a button and the wheels pop back into the upright and rotating position for landing.
reluctantsparrow
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:13 pm
Location: Morton, Wa.

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby Frank Colver » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:31 am

I've mentioned here before that i've always used wheels but in the early days, of the 1970's, I had to endure teasing about "training wheels" from some of the early HG pilots. Didn't stop me!

Well, hell, I flew seated, so some wheel drag was inconsequential. :ugeek:

FC
Frank Colver
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:21 am

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby reluctantsparrow » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:38 am

P.S.
in my mind the asymmetrical wheel folds flush with either a round or airfoil basetube. it does not sit above or below the base tube. Imagine an airfoil base tube Rick with a five inch flying saucer shaped disc flush with the airfoil basetube at each corner. Very smooth edges and nothing to catch on anything.
These discs are shaped to create their own life and I see the entire folding mechanism in my mind. There are, of course, appropriately shaped "grooves" the length of the radius of the disc on each side of the "wheel", so as the wheel is "folded" those grooves align and flush up with the airfoil base tube.
These "grooves" would only create drag when the wheel is deployed and not in the folded position. What do ya think?....RS
reluctantsparrow
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:13 pm
Location: Morton, Wa.

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby wingspan33 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm

RS and others,

Back in the early 1980s I designed and made a set of wheels for a glider carriage device. The idea was to have a way to roll your glider into a hike-in flying site, instead of carrying it on your shoulder - for a couple miles.

The whole "cart" had to be able to be broken down to as small a size as possible. But wheels that roll easily over rough terrain have to be a foot in diameter or larger. That was the problem I had to overcome.

My solution was to create a heavy Dacron cloth "tire" which held a pressurized inner-tube. This set-up attached to a modified bicycle hub (and that to the cart's axle). The "tire" could be inflated at the beginning of the hike and deflated at the launch site. It could be made quite compact.

So the current wheel topic caused me to remember my old wheel idea. It made me think of an inflatable landing wheel.

The landing wheel idea would require a couple CO2 cartridges (one for each tire) for quick inflation. But it could be designed to be held (while uninflated) inside an aerodynamic housing (actually RS's idea! :salute: ). The the two part housings could be tethered to the base tube, so that as the wheels inflated the housings would pop open without falling away. Being pneumatic, the wheels would also have some shock absorbing qualities as opposed to rigid plastic wheels.

Considering that two heads are better than one, I figured posting my (old) cart tire idea might trigger an even better Safe-Splat landing wheel idea on someone else's part. :thumbup:
wingspan33
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:24 pm

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:56 pm

Still mulling Jim's and Scott's remarks.
===================================
I let "wheels" as topic to include skis and skids. Consider texture of landing scenes (grass, rock, water, shrubs, sand, mud, ... )
Also, in former notes I brought in very-wide-rollers in W.W.W. explorations; that is, unseen wide roller (extremely wide tread wheel) when in low drag; robust diameter and very wide when deployed.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org

View pilots' hang gliding rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System
JoeF
User avatar
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 4686
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Safe-Splat

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:26 pm

What do ya think?

    I like the idea of a man attaching a lightweight wing to his back and running off a hill into the sky on his feet. The idea of landing the same way also appeals to me. I think of it as the most fundamental form of flight. Simple. Elegant. Austere. I love it.
    In fact, unlike most or all here, I have never flown a hang glider with wheels. My mindset has always been to avoid a situation where I would ever require wheels, a parachute, a miracle, an ambulance or a helicopter. I have had several crashes. All involved ground loops from tip strikes in ground turbulence. Thinking back, not one would have been improved by wheels. I chose to grab a downtube instead. But I have always encouraged pilots to use wheels, the bigger the better - and bigger is better - if it would make them feel more confident about flying. I have even seen pilots with little skill use wheels to their advantage, but it left me thinking that if they didn't have the wheels to rely on, they might have been forced to be better pilots and develop greater landing skill without them.
...what if they die trying to look cool?

    You are referring to wheels and implying that not wanting the weight or drag or hassle of wheels has to do with narcissism. That has never occurred to me. Are you sure it's not the pilots with wheels who are trying to look cool? To me it is all about efficiency. But if you want to use fatalities to bolster your argument, I would suggest you adjust your priorities based on how freeflyers actually die.
    First, by far, most freeflyers who die are flying paragliders. They die with an impact vector that is too steep for a wheel to help. They usually get into trouble within the Paragliding Dead Man's Curve, where they do not have enough time to deploy their reserve.

Image
    Even if they have enough time, they are often in an out-of-control situation where deploying the reserve effectively is difficult or impossible, such as in a high-g spiral or partial collapse with insufficient vertical speed for the reserve to deploy. Impact with the reserve often results in serious injuries, anyway.
    The most common incident trigger is encountering ground turbulence without an air frame during landing approach. Following the collapse of the paraglider's fabric airfoil, the drop is sudden, often closely approximating the acceleration of gravity and, again, resulting in a vector to impact too steep for wheels to help.
    From July 4 of last year to the July 4th of this week, 104 soaring parachutists that I presently have records for were killed by their paragliders. I do not accept the excuse of "pilot error" for those killed on such poorly conceived, critically balanced and dangerously inadequate parachutes, which can go out of control at the drop of a pin. Wheels would not have helped any of them. The only thing that would have helped them is a ballistic emergency reserve. A ballistic parachute, properly deployed, would have saved the lives of the majority of the 104 who perished and I regard a ballistic reserve as a necessity for any stuntman attempting to fly an aircraft without an air frame in turbulence. But those who fell for the marketing hype and uncritically chose to fly paragliders were, sadly, too stupid to understand this simple fact - thus the continual attrition.
    They take this as an insult but, really, it's just an observation. When you disregard the vital importance of an air frame to keep the shape of your airfoil intact when launching into or flying in perfectly normal atmospheric turbulence, or landing in perfectly normal ground turbulence, what do you have left? The impact of stupidity. That's it.
    Hang gliding, of course, is what we are talking about here on Safe Splat. In the same time period, I have incomplete records for 7 fatalities on hang gliders, representing only 6.3-percent of free-flying fatalities in the past year. All had violent, steep-vector or cliff face impacts where wheels would not have helped, except for one guy in Japan who crashed in a rice paddy, where wheels would not have helped. There may be some injury incidents where wheels would have helped. I don't know. I don't care. It's the pilot's option to put wheels on his hang glider. Or not. Hang gliding is dangerous. The more complicated you make your hang glider, the more dangerous it can become. We all do what we think is best. Some of us are wrong. Some of us are lucky. Some of us are just better pilots. Some of us should be riding bicycles instead.
    Every time you add complexity to a system, you invite disaster. For every broken neck or arm or lip you think you save with wheels, the same wheels also cause injury and death. The Jean Lake incident is a case in point. The tow line wrapped around the wheel axle. Two died because of wheels. This did not reflect well on our sport.
    Safe-splat provides no magic bullet. Wheels can be good. Wheels can be bad. But if we hold the USHPA negligent for not requiring wheels on every hang glider, the result of a successful court action would be essentially the creation of a USHPA police force to inspect and hold every hang glider pilot accountable for wheels.
    Like I said, don't go there. Outlaws like me are free and always will be. But don't make it worse than it is for everybody else.
Rick Masters
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:11 am

PreviousNext
Forum Statistics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Options

Return to Hang Gliding General