[Bob Kuczewski]

Suprone Solutions!!





Nice work Jim.

I enjoyed watching your progress along with the mini-interview with Scott. Nicely done.

[reluctantsparrow]

thanks Bob K,
I already have enough interest to do a small production run People are contacting me privately.....
this morning Don Beuch and I even talked on the phone....
The first region 4 director of the U.S.H.G.A. ......DON BEUCH!! I feel pretty honored. Don had so much to say I can't repost it all but his input was excellent and he is very excited about the flybar
....Don was also the inventor of the NEVERKINK we use on all our thimbles, Don was the test pilot for the legendary Klaus HIll Fledgling series. In fact, just found out the original Fledgling B was custom made by Klaus for Don to fly. Don had a lot to say about seated harness design. I really look forward to his input......later...Sunny Jim Fenison ( might as well give up the "reluctant Sparrow, I WANT folks to know I am a member of ushawks)
Anyway.....yeah, Don told me he did prone VS Suprone comparisons back in the day and unless a prone pilot really gets head down the suprone is far cleaner because it lines up with the airflow better.....so glad I Built harnesses for Delta Wing kites and gliders.....that short little gig is about to pay off via the sills learned ...and hey Frank! Still having fun....!!!

[Rick Masters]

the suprone is far cleaner because it lines up with the airflow better.

"Far cleaner???"
No way.
I personally doubt it could be any cleaner at all.
I am open to further discussion.
If this were true, I switch to suprone in a heartbeat.
But just look at the drag cross section.
It doesn't make sense.
I am certain a wind tunnel test would settle the issue.
But I will concede that the difference may not be significant, in the sense that a suprone pilot may be able to out-perform a prone pilot - or visa versa.
In hang gliding, skill can triumph.
We're not flying sailplanes.

[Bob Kuczewski]

thanks Bob K,
I already have enough interest to do a small production run People are contacting me privately.....
this morning Don Beuch and I even talked on the phone....
The first region 4 director of the U.S.H.G.A. ......DON BEUCH!! I feel pretty honored. Don had so much to say I can't repost it all but his input was excellent and he is very excited about the flybar
....Don was also the inventor of the NEVERKINK we use on all our thimbles, Don was the test pilot for the legendary Klaus HIll Fledgling series. In fact, just found out the original Fledgling B was custom made by Klaus for Don to fly. Don had a lot to say about seated harness design. I really look forward to his input...

That is very very cool.     I don't know if Joe Faust envisioned the Fennison FlyBar when he started this topic back in 2011, but you never know where life will lead you when you think out of the box. Thanks to both of you.

...later...Sunny Jim Fenison ( might as well give up the "reluctant Sparrow, I WANT folks to know I am a member of ushawks)

I can change your screen name if you like. A number of us have changed to use our full names recently. It's a little bit scary, sort of like signing the Declaration of Independence - in large letters.  

Decl_Sig_small.jpeg (112.94 KiB) Viewed 5346 times

the suprone is far cleaner because it lines up with the airflow better.

"Far cleaner???"
No way.

I think "Far cleaner" might also be a bit of a stretch, but there is always an upward component of the air resulting from our relative sinking through it. Of course the flow at the surface of the glider must be parallel to it (unless it's highly porous), but a few feet away it may have an upward component (from our sinking). An actual test might determine which is the greater factor.

I suspect that the difference is fairly minor in any case, and people who choose the FlyBar probably aren't looking for performance anyway. So there's little need to focus on that aspect of the invention from either point of view.  

[Frank Colver]

As I've said before: I loved flying seated. So kudos to RS.

[reluctantsparrow]

"Far Cleaner"....may be a bad choice of words....
I had just got off the phone with Don and he was referring to the position most prone pilots fly in, which is either level or slightly head up because totally head down is too uncomfortable for most pilots. I do appreciate you guys calling me on exaggerations. That is one of the things that is truly great about the hawks.....keeps it real.
Don was talking about what he sees at most sites, boys and girls boating around prone "level" or a little "head up'. pointed out how dirty that was and observed that the natural position for suprone or supine is more directly into the airflow.
When I flew comps I was always head down, feet up....which is pretty darn clean.....
But if you compare the dangle of the angle of most prone pilots compared to the natural feet down, head up position of a clean suprone harness that is perfectly aligned with the airflow....far cleaner is probably not an exaggeration....and that was the conversation in my head when I made that comment But I did not make that very clear....
I am quite sure a prone pilot aligned to the airflow is cleaner than a seated in a pod pilot aligned to the airflow.
It is just that very few prone pilots align to the airflow in real life. usually level, which is very dirty...

[Bill Cummings]

RS,
I've tried the head down for cleaner and it isn't any fun. Pilots with G.E.R.D. find it to be a terrible position.
Head down for crashing or feet down for crashing --- you decide.
As a matter of fact I fly prone, head up, for comfort knowing my body in this position is plowing through a lot of air but that's my considered trade off. I've always thought suprone would be a more efficient position to be in but due to a spine problem I picked prone over suprone or supine. (recumbent?)

"Far Cleaner"....may be a bad choice of words....
I had just got off the phone with Don and he was referring to the position most prone pilots fly in, which is either level or slightly head up because totally head down is too uncomfortable for most pilots. I do appreciate you guys calling me on exaggerations. That is one of the things that is truly great about the hawks.....keeps it real.
Don was talking about what he sees at most sites, boys and girls boating around prone "level" or a little "head up'. pointed out how dirty that was and observed that the natural position for suprone or supine is more directly into the airflow.
When I flew comps I was always head down, feet up....which is pretty darn clean.....
But if you compare the dangle of the angle of most prone pilots compared to the natural feet down, head up position of a clean suprone harness that is perfectly aligned with the airflow....far cleaner is probably not an exaggeration....and that was the conversation in my head when I made that comment But I did not make that very clear....
I am quite sure a prone pilot aligned to the airflow is cleaner than a seated in a pod pilot aligned to the airflow.
It is just that very few prone pilots align to the airflow in real life. usually level, which is very dirty...

[JoeF]

Top drawer, Jim !

[reluctantsparrow]

the "side by side" harness comparison I want to see on video is the one Rick said earlier that he wants to see:
Falcon VS. Falcon, similar pilot weights, but I want to see both "inefficient prone" VS. Suprone ... I want to see the prone pilot flying dirty, then I want to see him/her clean up in flight and as slippery as possible (a position very few fly in).....I want to see the results, in real time, between "clean Prone & Dirty Prone" vs. Suprone Flying a harness like the Gin Genie RAce.
Other ideas are coming fast and furious. (I don't go anywhere without a note pad now)
Made Drawings today of three different Aerotow set ups I see available with the Flybar Set up....none of them alter the CG in any way. Two of them are Steerable. All three keep the rear keel from dropping down. One of them is a "trainer" that makes it impossible for the nose to come over (it is the dirtiest aerodynamically but also the most user friendly)
All three designs are foot launch able. None require a "cart".
Going to start with the simplest design.
Can't wait to bend it up!

[Frank Colver]

Sometimes it's just fun to fly in a comfortable position, enjoying the view, even if it takes away some performance, you're still in the air & flying for God's sake!

Look at any of the old photos of me flying while sitting in a Sears swing seat. It would appear that I'm having a hell of a good time in spite of the drag.

If you want the cleanest, maximum performance - fly a sailplane!

Frank Colver