[Red]

But we pilots learn these skills - many of them inherently dangerous - by doing them. This is necessary for the re-invigoration of hang gliding and there is no other way in a solo sport to avoid the risk.

Rick,

With all due respect, I disagree. HG instruction can be a much safer option, when acquiring skills. When I taught HG for a living, nobody got out on the training hill without first demonstrating their basic full competence on the full-glider Simulator:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Soaring_simulators

That "full competence" includes stall recovery and turbulence corrections, as ingrained automatic reflex responses from the new pilot. Radio instruction out on the training hill would be too little, and too late.

A triangle bar and bungee cords is NOT enough, here. I had to weed out the dyslexics on the Simulator, sorry to say, because radio "commands" and even pointing which way they should turn was purely a crap-shoot, for some cases. The worst case was a guy who had as much trouble with Up/Down as he did with Left/Right, even as he watched the Simulator nose coming down or going up. I don't think today's medical science recognizes that level of dyslexia, but I have seen it.

Tossing the reserve parachute is also a skill to be learned (thoroughly) on the full-glider Simulator. Wish I had a dollar for every HG pilot who threw the reserve parachute into the Simulator's flying wires (where it wedged itself) on the first try, because they did not look first.

If the HG instructor can not teach cliff launching without a cliff, please quietly "fire" that one, and find a better one. The sky (and I) will not accept any excuses, there.

I strongly oppose any "learning to fly" in mid-air. New pilots have enough on their plate already.

All IMHO, of course.

[JoeF]

USHGRS certification process definitely admits many kinds of instruction reception by the pilots. Professional instructors will continue to play important roles for some pilots. Mentors and coaches will advance their roles. Schools and simulators too. USHGRS will draw out on top of such matter to confirm the core ratings. The ratings will never have to be renewed while the pilot ever remains responsible to be current in skills for the flight about to be experienced.

[Red]

USHGRS certification process definitely admits many kinds of instruction reception by the pilots. Professional instructors will continue to play important roles for some pilots. Mentors and coaches will advance their roles. Schools and simulators too. USHGRS will draw out on top of such matter to confirm the core ratings. The ratings will never have to be renewed while the pilot ever remains responsible to be current in skills for the flight about to be experienced.

Joe,

i agree. Good HG instruction is valuable. Good HG mentors are priceless.
.

[Rick Masters]

No, Red.
We must take neophytes to the edge of the cliff and throw them off!

It's the only way.    

My point was, after progressive advancement, once a new pilot is judged ready for that, he's on his own when his feet leave the ground.
BTW, I've seen a lot of pilots trained on little hills in a moderate breeze with a line tied to the nose for pitch and a guy on a flying wire for roll.
That's also a training simulator. Whatever does the job is okay by me.

[Red]

No, Red.
We must take neophytes to the edge of the cliff and throw them off!
https://tealshades.files.wordpress.com/ ... /throw.jpg
It's the only way.     My point was, after progressive advancement, once a new pilot is judged ready for that, he's on his own.

Rick,

There was once a time when all that was about true. I call that time "the Bad Old Days," and may they never return. Now we know enough to encourage mentorship (from both sides of the equation), and even tandem flying for many advanced skills. Nobody should be saying a new pilot is "ready," unless the new pilot is saying that first. Even then, the wise newbee might be listening for second opinions, and more information. I only hope they will get that information.

Even advanced skills like XC flying can be learned with team flying, with radio communication and discussion of options at every turn, at first. I know, we probably both struggled through without such good help, but I am not in favor of withholding knowledge from the new pilots. The risks are all too real, and for some of it, I can only claim luck, not knowledge or skill, to be alive today.
.

[Rick Masters]

In my experience, the best pilots escaped the influence of their instructors as early H3s and went hang gliding.
They left the nest. The sky became their instructor. Their human instructors couldn't keep up with them.
I ask myself, what is diminishing hang gliding?
Part of it is paragliding schools sucking off potential hang glider pilots.
Another part is pretty obviously the milking of formal instruction for the financial benefit of the instructor.
Towing and tandem. All money-makers. All unnecessary, imo.

Another part is an over-abundance of caution.
When an over-abundance of caution drives instruction, progress suffers.
When progress suffers, novices go elsewhere.
It's a dangerous sport. There cannot be progress without acceptable risk.
Everyone lauds the instructor who never has accidents but keeps his fledglings forever in training.
I think that guy is part of the problem.

You call the early period, when 10,000 people worldwide learned to fly hang gliders under peer or self-instruction, "the bad old days."
But for the majority who made it, they were the good old days.
I think good instruction can be accomplished by peers or certified instructors.
However, I do notice that many of the prominent deaths during training in recent years have been under certified instructors.
Instructors can toot their horns as loudly as they want, but there are two sides to this.

[Red]

In my experience, the best pilots escaped the influence of their instructors as early H3s and went hang gliding. They left the nest. The sky became their instructor. Their human instructors couldn't keep up with them. Another part is pretty obviously the milking of formal instruction for the financial benefit of the instructor.
Another part is an over-abundance of caution. When an over-abundance of caution drives instruction, progress suffers. When progress suffers, novices go elsewhere.
I think good instruction can be accomplished by peers or certified instructors. Instructors can toot their horns as loudly as they want, but there are two sides to this.

Rick,

I agree, on those items. My HG students were out of the nest faster, for less money, than any other HG instructors here could claim. I also had people lining up for the HG lessons, so I made plenty enough money, without vacuuming anybody's wallet. My "ground school" (HG simulator time) was free, but mandatory before the first HG lesson. My tandem flights were free, to my students who were ready. I have seen the wrong side of HG instruction, and I didn't like it. I had no broken bones among my HG students (over 1000), not in lessons or after, as far as I know. The local HG club had a raft of good mentors, and it showed.
.

[Frank Colver]

I am so happy that I came in to hang gliding before all of this. A rare time for us lucky ones, never to be repeated down through history.

I recognize that things change and I welcomed John Heiney's input before I stepped off Point of the Mountain last week. Once airborne, I was on my own and it was like the good old days again! Turning the glider and looking out along the low wing, watching the terrain pass by, was pure joy! Setting up for the sites spot landing was like no time had passed since I last set up for a precise landing. Before the flight I wondered if I could still do any of this. Once in the air the long closed file opened, loaded into the operating system, and the glider and I were on our way!

Disappointment at making a 4 point landing (2 wheels & 2 knees) but with high density altitude and very little wind in the LZ I have found, through site research, that knee landings are not rare at POTM. Before I return I will have some serious knee pads.

I make this a case for permanent ratings, not dependant on paying yearly dues.

Frank Colver

[Bob Kuczewski]

Once airborne, I was on my own and it was like the good old days again!
   :
I make this a case for permanent ratings, not dependant on paying yearly dues.

Frank Colver

That's the way that Orville and Wilbur had intended when they began the long tradition of lifetime pilot's ratings. USHPA has perverted that time-honored aviation tradition in their desperate attempt to keep their members dependent on them.

That's why we have the U.S. Hawks ... and now the USHGRS.

Thanks to Joe Faust!!!   

[Bob Kuczewski]

I just added the USHGRS to my signature line. If you quote this post, you can see the BBCode formatting that I used here:

Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org

View my rating at: US Hang Gliding Rating System

Please feel free to add the USHGRS link to your signature line on the U.S. Hawks and other forums.