[Bob Kuczewski]

I agree with your analysis up to a point ...

Not only is Jack the operator, Jack is the owner. Jack is the property owner of HG.org. Jack has property rights in his ownership of hg.org.

First of all, all restaurant owners are property owners, but as a society, we've decided to assign health inspectors to insure that they are not serving toxic food to the public. I believe the mechanism varies from state to state. Some states just shut a place down. Other states might advertise a health grade (such as "A", "B", or "C") and let the public decide. Also, society has established the rights to take or exert control over private property for a number of reasons (eminent domain, illegal activities, monopolies, etc.). So your private property analogy is already flawed.

But lets ignore all those problems. Our current society is very conscious of racial discrimination, so I'll use it (again) as an analogy. If you knew that a certain web site was excluding people based on their race, would you visit and post on that site? Probably not. But if you did post there, would you be surprised to find people being critical of you for doing so?

That's pretty much what the Wall of Shame is. It's somewhat similar to video taping people as they enter or leave a building known for illicit activity. It's a way of letting everyone know that these certain people have allowed (and in some cases participated) in doing this bad activity.

I'm sure you don't like it because you're named as one of the people who posted merrily along without taking a stand for Joe. As a "property owner" of this site, it's my right to state what I have witnessed and I am granting that right to others as well. In that sense, Red is right. I am trying to change other people's behavior. But so is Red, and so is Jack, and so are you. Red likes to call it "manipulation" when it's done to him and call it "free speech" when he does it to others. I don't care which term is used as long as it's used consistently.

Finally, I have no doubt that this will split our community between those who tolerate others being abused and those who stand against it (it already has). I know which group I want to associate with, and if these topics cause a separation, then I will be among those who stood up for Joe Faust. You can go hang out with the people you want to be associated with.

[Red]

Red, the flaw in your logic is that we cannot do the same thing repeatedly even if we wanted to do so. Ask Tiger Woods or any athlete if they can actually repeat any action exactly. Each attempt is always different.

Every time a person reads - even the exact same words - they may gain a different perspective. But more importantly, when a person reads the same message from different people, it has an amplified effect. So your analogy is obviously false. I won't call it a lie because I'll assume that you just hadn't thought it through before making your faulty statement. The next time I may not be so generous.

Bob,

*LOL* I have heard it said that insanity is doing the same unproductive thing repeatedly, and expecting different results at some point.

When two people (being neither you nor I) have a dispute between them, it is none of my business how they resolve that dispute. That personal standard will not be changed by you, or by anything you may say. I do not intrude. I am not obliged to explain anything to anybody (my Constitutional right, if you care to check on that), and certainly not to you. You DID swear an oath to defend my rights, which also means you should not attack them.

I know that you have a beef with another forum owner. This conflict is the predictable result of two control freaks, colliding head-on. It has caused you untold aggravation and frustration over these many years, but you are OBSESSED with this non-repairable mess that you have perpetuated. This obsession is just not healthy for you, but again, that is none of my business, either. I know, of course, that you can run off into a corner and write yet another bad speech for me to deliver according to your orders, as if those words were my words. You have told me that I must make that delivery.

You have used almost every form of manipulation (character assassination, insults, innuendo, bullying, invented fantasies of right and wrong, and endless harangues) to try to make me obey your orders. What you want me to do is to perpetrate a LYING FRAUD on another forum, spouting your words and ideas as if they were mine. I will NOT do that. Maybe in your world such behavior is normal, or acceptable, but in my world, it is not. The only place where you will ever see me deliver your speeches will be inside a closed mind, not in the real world.

I have refused your every attempt to coerce my cooperation in this proposed LYING FRAUD of yours, and I can assure you, my refusal will not change. You may want to set yourself up as the final arbiter of right and wrong, but I will never accept that, about you. I run by my headlights, and not by yours. You rail against LIARS, but you seem to have no qualms about having me doing that, if it might benefit you. For the record, I regard honesty as a lifetime goal, not as a cheap standard that is discarded whenever it is inconvenient.

I do want you to know, it is now, and forever will be a total waste of your time and energy to continue trying to make me follow your orders. I will NOT do that, which is my automatic response to anybody issuing orders to me. In this case, my refusal is reinforced by my perception that your LYING FRAUD is to be the end result of those immoral orders and endless harangues.

Your unending publicizing of another forum that you envy/hate strikes me as being completely counter-productive here, but that is your specialty, I think.

[magentabluesky]

I'm sure you don't like it because you're named as one of the people who posted merrily along without taking a stand for Joe.

Bob, I went back and read my posts last night.

To be quite frank, I cannot believe the support I poured out in Joe’s defense. Go back and read my posts.

Not only was I posting in Joe’s defense, I was pushing the limit in defending Bob Kuczewski and other pilots made comments that if I kept that up I would be banned too. I spoke the truth and could care less if I am banned.

The thing to recognize, I am not telling you what Christmas Decorations to put up in your house. You can put up a Christmas tree, stockings, a Menorah, or whatever is your personal choice. That is your home and I respect your choice. Shaming people to your persuasion is what Democrats do. You must have spent too much time in California, you are turning blue. Go visit Sam in Texas and hangout with some Republicans.

I am holding my head up high.

In the mean time you have your head so buried in the microscope analyzing the microbial bacteria of the manure mound you have lost sight of the landscape and are missing the big picture of what is currently happening in the hang gliding community.

“There are King Tigers in the forest of the Ardennes.”

General George Patton:

“There is no purpose in capturing these manure-filled, water logged villages. . . . Straight frontal attacks against villages are prohibited unless after careful study there is no other possible solution.”

The first intimation Patton had of the German Ardennes counter-offensive came in a telephone call from 12th Army Group, which instructed him to move an armored division from Walker’s XX Corps to Middleton’s VIII “to help repulse a rather strong German attack”

Unaware of the extent of the German effort, Patton protested. He said that the Third Army had paid “a very heavy price in blood in the hope of a break through at Saarlautern and Saarbrucken, and consequently his Army needed the division in case the Germans extended their attack in his area. In his opinion, he told Bradley, moving the armored division would play into the Germans hands.

(Patton at the time was ground to a stop in the siege of Metz.)

Patton’s proposal was astonishing, technically difficult, and daring. It meant reorienting his entire Army from an eastward direction to the north, a 90-degree turn that would pose logistical nightmares – getting divisions on new roads and making sure that supplies reached them from dumps established in quite a different context, for quite a different situation. Altogether, it was an operation that only a master could think of executing.

Eisenhower approved.

The Patton Papers: 1940-1945 by Martin Blumenson

Let’s see, Bob has pissed off General Bradley, General Eisenhower, and never got along with Monty.

'Bob Drives Bus Over the Cliff

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob, I went back and read my posts last night.

To be quite frank, I cannot believe the support I poured out in Joe’s defense. Go back and read my posts.

Not only was I posting in Joe’s defense, I was pushing the limit in defending Bob Kuczewski and other pilots made comments that if I kept that up I would be banned too. I spoke the truth and could care less if I am banned.

Yes, you did speak up. And Frank spoke up too. I was quick to put you both on the Wall of Heroes (where I'm much happier to have you). With you and Frank speaking up, you were right on the cusp of making a major change. It might have been a major change where Jack might save face by saying "since the community is asking for this, I'm going to unban Joe Faust and drop the USHGRS ban". Or he might have banned you all. Either way, it would be a painful loss for Jack and a victory for the sport of hang gliding (and justice in general).

But then you all backed down. You all ran away so you could have happy talk about more pleasant things. You all made your excuses for yourselves that don't stand up under even casual examination.

Patton? Patton?!? Patton would have slapped each of you in the face ... several times.

[magentabluesky]

Personally, whenever I am conflicted and need to re-orientate my prospective, I have a daily devotional primarily on three (what I would say are) affirmations. They are the “Prayer of Saint Francis”, “Desiderata” by Max Ehrmann, and “Attitude” by Charles Swindoll. I focus on the meaning and application of the thoughts and words into my life. When I have needed a big realignment, I have done this daily devotional for over three months.

Prayer of Saint Francis
Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is discord, harmony;
Where there is error, truth;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.


Instrument: a tool or device used for a particular purpose.
Peace: a state of tranquility or quiet, freedom from disquieting or oppressive thoughts or emotions, harmony in personal relations.
Hatred: a very strong feeling of dislike.
Love: a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person, unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another.
Injury: Harm or damage, an act or event that causes someone or something to no longer be fully healthy or in good condition.
Pardon: the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty, forgiveness for a fault, offense, or discourtesy.
Discord: lack of agreement between people, ideas, active quarreling or conflict.
Harmony: a pleasing combination or arrangement of different things, internal calm, tranquility.
Error: something that is not correct, a wrong action or statement, an act or condition of ignorant or imprudent deviation from a code of behavior.
Truth: the real facts about something, the property of being in accord with fact or reality.
Doubt: to be uncertain about something, to believe that something may not be true or is unlikely, to have no confidence.
Faith: strong belief or trust in someone of something.
Despair: to no longer have any hope or belief that a situation will improve or change.
Hope: to cherish a desire with anticipation, to expect with confidence.
Darkness: having very little or no light, devoid or light, not receiving, reflecting, transmitting, or radiating light.
Light: the form of energy that makes it possible to see things, the sensation aroused by stimulation of the visual receptors.
Sadness: affected with or expressive of grief or unhappiness, deep and poignant distress.
Joy: the emotion evoked by well-being, success, or good fortune or by the prospect of possessing what one desires, a state of happiness, a source or cause of delight.
Console: to alleviate the grief, sense of loss, or trouble.
Understand: to grasp the meaning, having the power of comprehension, to achieve a grasp of the nature, significance, or explanation of something, to show a sympathetic or tolerant attitude toward something.
Love: a feeling of strong or constant affection for a person, unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another.
Giving: to accord or yield to another, to convey to another.
Receive: to accept or acquire, to come into possession.
Pardon: the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty, forgiveness for a fault, offense, or discourtesy.
Dying: to suffer total and irreversible loss of the bodily attributes and functions that constitute life.
Eternal Life: lasting or existing forever, having infinite duration, without end or beginning, spiritual existence transcending physical death.

[magentabluesky]

desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly to the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Max Ehrmann c.1920

[magentabluesky]

ATTITUDE
by
Charles Swindoll

"The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think, say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play the one string we have, and that is our attitude... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.

And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes”

Attitude: the way you think and feel about someone or something, a feeling or way of thinking that affects a person’s behavior.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Michael,

All of your quoted passages are nice. But as some of them hint, there is a time for war and a time for peace ("As far as possible, without surrender", "Where there is error, truth", "Where there is darkness, light"). Jack has slowly removed the spine from each of his captives, and now they sit paralyzed watching abuse after abuse. I will give you credit for at least not pretending that there's nothing wrong with Joe's banning (see Red's posts), but there has to be some response or you just become part of the problem.

Jack has a long history of splitting the herd. After each ban, he lets things settle down for a while until it's business as usual again. Then he singles out the next target. That's exactly what David Jebb did at Torrey. It's time to say "enough is enough". If the clearly abusive banning of Joe Faust isn't enough to get you off your butts, then tell me what would be?

I'm quite sure Jack is reading every word of this. He's torn between a big smirk (that he's got you all backed into your corners), and the sheer terror that you might all stand together for Joe Faust. I'm just the guy taking notes for the history books. You all get to decide what I end up writing. You know darned well that I'd like to write a story where the good guys actually win in the end.

I know, I can hear you all whining ... but, but, he'll baaaan me. Oh is that really a terrible thing? Then maybe you should put yourself in Joe's shoes. Or are you so selfish that you don't care if this terrible thing happens to Joe ... as long as it doesn't happen to you? Maybe Patton would have slapped you a few more times for your selfishness.

By the way, my references to Patton's slapping incidents do not condone or support his actions in those cases. All conflicts share some underlying similarities, but comparisons always break down when taken too far. I will say that the ultimate culprit in the Patton slapping incidents was Adolf Hitler. Whenever humans are stressed to the limits of their design, they will begin to exhibit deteriorated behavior. We now recognize this with diagnoses such as PTSD. Indeed, Patton himself may have been suffering from a similar form of stress disorder in his own actions. It's hard to imagine the stress of making decisions affecting the lives of the entire 7th Army. My point is that everyone forced into such a situation suffers: from the no-stripe private to the commanding general. The solution is fighting the perpetrators of these conflicts who force people into these situations. In our little microcosm, that would be USHPA and Jack.

As I've said many times, it's been Jack's actions that have forced each of you to choose between supporting Joe Faust or having a voice on hanggliding.org. That's a choice that none of you should have to make. If you don't like being put in that situation, then what are you going to do about it?

    Michael?
    Red?
    Frank?

[Bob Kuczewski]

I know, of course, that you can run off into a corner and write yet another bad speech for me to deliver according to your orders, as if those words were my words. You have told me that I must make that delivery.
  :
What you want me to do is to perpetrate a LYING FRAUD on another forum, spouting your words and ideas as if they were mine.
  :
I have refused your every attempt to coerce my cooperation in this proposed LYING FRAUD
  :
You rail against LIARS, but you seem to have no qualms about having me doing that, if it might benefit you.
  :
my refusal is reinforced by my perception that your LYING FRAUD is to be the end result of those immoral orders and endless harangues.

In case anyone is wondering what Red is talking about, I sometimes use a short hand of writing a suggested response directly rather than saying "I think you should tell him ..., and then tell him ..., and you should also mention ...".

Just as with tandem instruction (or even training hill instruction), I sometimes find the most efficient way to communicate my suggestions is to just demonstrate it as I would do it. I figure if someone likes any of what I've written, they can easily cut and paste what they want. Of course they can always write whatever they like. I had to go back to September to find the last examples where I had made any such suggestions to Red. It was amid a number of other communications related to Joe's banning (and the similar banning of Scott and myself). I'll only include my own messages for context:

     ... communications from Red ...

Here's the exact reason Jack gave for banning Joe:

Joe, you refused to take me off your list, so im taking you off of the orgs.

http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36135&start=60

Where do Jack's rules say that people can be banned for things they post on *other* sites?

     ... communications from Red ...

It's not a windmill. It's what I would do for you and it's what Joe would do for you.

     ... communications from Red ...

You could say that all of hang gliding is a tempest in a teapot. So what?

How would this have gone differently if you'd stood up to Jack and posted this:

Bob didn't ask anyone to rig an election. He asked you to correct a ballot that included him when he clearly said he would not run if Scott accepted his nomination. Scott accepted, but you put Bob on the ballot anyway. When Bob asked to be removed, you refused. It's you, Jack, who actually rigged that election.

     ... communications from Red ...

Jack, it's time that someone said what I'm about to say.

Your ridiculous policy of banning people and changing web site names and trying to scare us all into silence is further fracturing the small sport of hang gliding that we all love.

You thought that you could crush Bob and Scott with your smear tactics. You've failed. The U.S. Hawks web site continues to grow and to spawn new ideas that challenge the failed status quo in the sport of hang gliding. It's time to drop the ridiculous "Bob and Scott (and now Joe?)" rules so we can unite the sport against the forces that are really killing it.

I've been your most loyal supporter, and I'm speaking to help you. Stop this war with Bob, Scott, Joe and others right now. If you will ban me for even saying this, then that's all the evidence I need to find a new home.

     ... communications from Red ...

Joe is a very good man. He should not have been silenced in the largest forum in the sport that he founded.

If you can't find it in you to speak up for me, ask yourself what Joe has done to deserve being banned.

     ... communications from Red ...

It's not hearsay that Joe Faust was banned. That's happening right now.

     ... communications from Red ...

You want to cut through the hearsay?

Jack, I've seen the "Bob and Scott" rule for years. But I've never seen any actual post where Bob violated any hanggliding.org rule to get banned. Can you please show me the post(s) that got him banned? Thanks in advance.

Go get it from the horses mouth.

Those are my exact messages to Red that he now claims are my "proposed LYING FRAUD". I never gave him "orders". I never told him that he "must make that delivery". I made my best suggestions as to how he might help the ongoing banning situation.

As I've said before, the best analogy I can think of to this situation is from the last episode of "M*A*S*H" where a bus load of doctors and civilians was in such terror that a woman smothered her own baby to keep it quiet. There were no bad people on that bus. They didn't ask to be in that situation. That situation was created by forces beyond their control. That's what Jack has done. He's created an environment that's so hostile that otherwise good men like Red are afraid to speak up for hang gliding saints like Joe Faust.

I will again quote Frank's quite appropriate title to this topic:

Hang gliding is in more trouble than I thought.

[Red]

I know, of course, that you can run off into a corner and write yet another bad speech for me to deliver according to your orders, as if those words were my words. You have told me that I must make that delivery.
What you want me to do is to perpetrate a LYING FRAUD on another forum, spouting your words and ideas as if they were mine.
I have refused your every attempt to coerce my cooperation in this proposed LYING FRAUD
You rail against LIARS, but you seem to have no qualms about having me doing that, if it might benefit you.
my refusal is reinforced by my perception that your LYING FRAUD is to be the end result of those immoral orders and endless harangues.

In case anyone is wondering what Red is talking about, I sometimes use a short hand of writing a suggested response directly rather than saying "I think you should tell him ..., and then tell him ..., and you should also mention ...".
Just as with tandem instruction (or even training hill instruction), I sometimes find the most efficient way to communicate my suggestions is to just demonstrate it as I would do it. I figure if someone likes any of what I've written, they can easily cut and paste what they want. Of course they can always write whatever they like. I had to go back to September to find the last examples where I had made any such suggestions to Red. It was amid a number of other communications related to Joe's banning (and the similar banning of Scott and myself). I'll only include my own messages for context:
... communications from Red ...

Here's the exact reason Jack gave for banning Joe:

Joe, you refused to take me off your list, so im taking you off of the orgs.

http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36135&start=60
Where do Jack's rules say that people can be banned for things they post on *other* sites?

... communications from Red ...

It's not a windmill. It's what I would do for you and it's what Joe would do for you.

... communications from Red ...

You could say that all of hang gliding is a tempest in a teapot. So what?
How would this have gone differently if you'd stood up to Jack and posted this:

Bob didn't ask anyone to rig an election. He asked you to correct a ballot that included him when he clearly said he would not run if Scott accepted his nomination. Scott accepted, but you put Bob on the ballot anyway. When Bob asked to be removed, you refused. It's you, Jack, who actually rigged that election.

... communications from Red ... [/i]

Jack, it's time that someone said what I'm about to say. Your ridiculous policy of banning people and changing web site names and trying to scare us all into silence is further fracturing the small sport of hang gliding that we all love. You thought that you could crush Bob and Scott with your smear tactics. You've failed. The U.S. Hawks web site continues to grow and to spawn new ideas that challenge the failed status quo in the sport of hang gliding. It's time to drop the ridiculous "Bob and Scott (and now Joe?)" rules so we can unite the sport against the forces that are really killing it. I've been your most loyal supporter, and I'm speaking to help you. Stop this war with Bob, Scott, Joe and others right now. If you will ban me for even saying this, then that's all the evidence I need to find a new home.

... communications from Red ...

Joe is a very good man. He should not have been silenced in the largest forum in the sport that he founded. If you can't find it in you to speak up for me, ask yourself what Joe has done to deserve being banned.

... communications from Red ...

It's not hearsay that Joe Faust was banned. That's happening right now.

... communications from Red ...

You want to cut through the hearsay?

Jack, I've seen the "Bob and Scott" rule for years. But I've never seen any actual post where Bob violated any hanggliding.org rule to get banned. Can you please show me the post(s) that got him banned? Thanks in advance.

Go get it from the horses mouth.

Those are my exact messages to Red that he now claims are my "proposed LYING FRAUD". I never gave him "orders". I never told him that he "must make that delivery". I made my best suggestions as to how he might help the ongoing banning situation.
As I've said before, the best analogy I can think of to this situation is from the last episode of "M*A*S*H" where a bus load of doctors and civilians was in such terror that a woman smothered her own baby to keep it quiet. There were no bad people on that bus. They didn't ask to be in that situation. That situation was created by forces beyond their control. That's what Jack has done. He's created an environment that's so hostile that otherwise good men like Red are afraid to speak up for hang gliding saints like Joe Faust. I will again quote Frank's quite appropriate title to this topic:

Hang gliding is in more trouble than I thought.

Bob,

WOW, now THAT is outrageous! For the record, everybody; except for the topmost quote box, EVERY ONE of those supposed "... communications from Red ..." above are total LIES. I never said them. They are just fictional BS generated by Bob's over-active imagination, from an unknown fantasy world which has only one occupant. NONE of that junk (seen below the top quote box) came from me.

Bob has tried to put all of those words into my mouth repeatedly, using every form of coercion possible, and when I would not comply with his proposed LYING FRAUD, he posts that stuff here, only wishing that I had said them for him. I DID NOT!

To be clear, Bob, that horrendous episode of "M*A*S*H" is NOT reality, it was just an old TV show, one that lasted several times the length of the real Korean War. They were running out of ideas. No babies were killed in this entire back-and-forth about the operation of another HG forum, and trying to construct the slightest comparison there is FAR beyond lame, it is a despicable manipulation.

You will not win this way, Bob. I view this foolish attempt as abominable. I warn everybody here, you could be the next target in this unrealistic nonsense.