[Frank Colver]

Announcing that I am ending my efforts to get JoeF back into HG.org per his request. I received this email from Joe on Dec 14 and I passed it on (with Joe's permission) to sg letting him know that I was dropping the effort per Joe's wishes. I greatly appreciate Joe's thanks for my efforts and I will no longer be posting anything on this subject. Finise!

Here is a copy of Joe's email message to me:

Frank,
I am no longer trying to get back to being a poster in Jack's forum because of his published and practicing polices and ways and means. Thank you for your actions toward an unban result--appreciated. Even if unbanned, I'd not publish in Jack's forum until severe changes are made in his policies and practices. Many other avenues are available to share HG ideas, notes, and images!
Thanks, much lift to you an yours
and your projects,
Joe

Happy winter solstice everyone! The flying days will now be getting longer.
Frank

[wingspan33]

It's good to hear from you Frank! It would have been great if my first post here at the US Hawks had been met with a similar welcome. Oh, wait, I think it may have been.

Please note the times of "joining" the US Hawks

Bob K - Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:40 pm

Wingspan33 - Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:24 pm

No one is sooner than Bob and I don't think anyone is sooner (in second place) than I. Eight years ago Bob and I were like you and Joe back in the early 1970s. But I wonder, did you and Joe have people who were actively working to STOP you from forming the USHGA?

Having people like you, who helped start the modern era of hang gliding, as members of the US Hawks, is worth more than I can imagine. And please understand also that Bob, then I, began the US Hawks because Jack the Axe had banned us - first from the HGAA, and then from sg.org. Bob and I were trying to steer things back to the positive beginnings of hang gliding. But Jack the Axe didn't like that so we were gone - made to disappear. Joe F was (more recently) also made to disappear. And I've heard that he was there at the beginning too. I am certain that you know and respect Joe very much. But I'm wondering if you know and respect Jack?

Check out the quotes that I included near the end of the thread at [ viewtopic.php?f=7&t=78&start=10 ]. I humble myself that you may think about your continued participation on a site that truly rejects individuals who honor the very beginnings of the sport of hang gliding. I speak for myself and no one else.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Frank and everyone else,

Before Joe was banned from hanggliding.org, he was posting there almost every day. That's an irrefutable fact. If Joe had not been banned, there is no reason to expect that he would have chosen to stop posting.

It was Jack's action in banning Joe that led to Joe's statement that you've quoted. Joe's statement is a consequence of an injustice and it does not mean that the banning was justified or should be allowed to stand.

I can understand that you and others may want to cleanse your consciences by quoting Joe's statement, but you are quoting a statement that is clearly the product of the injustice in the first place. You want to play with the kids who just beat up your friend, so you're looking for excuses to do so.

The reality is, Frank, that you're not "ending" your effort, but that you failed in your effort. You were destined to fail from the beginning because Jack Axaopolis is a bully and a tyrant. There's nothing wrong with failing in that circumstance. But there is something very wrong with rewarding a bully and a tyrant ... which is what I predict you'll continue to do for your own interests. We're not so stupid that we can't see that. Please prove me wrong.

[Frank Colver]

Bob

I was very close to getting Joe back in and nearing success. But I wasn't going to continue against Joe's wishes. I respect Joe very much and would not want to do something he didn't want me to do.

I still post on HG.org for the same reason Joe did - it reaches a hell of a lot of HG pilots. I never saw you condemn Joe for his posting there but you seem to think I should not follow in Joe's tradition. When looking for ideas the more pilots the better.

I will continue my discussions with SG in an effort to get his forum opened up to important and uncensored (except for bad words and personal attacks) discussions. Success is probably not in the cards but It never hurts to talk.

I feel sorry you still find ways to put me down. I thought my continued "back door" efforts on Joe's behalf would end all that. Evidently I have lost what I thought was a true friend. Se la vie.

WINGSPAN 33, There was an effort to stop the formation of the USHGA, with pilots speaking out against it but we didn't have web forums in those days.

The reason behind it was that we (the BOD) of the SCHGA were voting to abolish the SCHGA and convert it into the USHGA. We had a very active SoCal HG club, with large monthly meetings in downtown LA, and it died with its conversion to the national organization. Even though I did not like that prospect, I still voted for the USHGA because of the concern about the rules the FAA was drawing up (Part 103) and we needed national representation to guide the rule making and protect our infant sport. USHGA served that purpose very well. Too bad it morphed into what USHPA has become today.

Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Evidently I have lost what I thought was a true friend. Se la vie.

True friends do not allow true friends to be bullied ... and then go on to support the bully.

[JoeF]

I am not trying to get back in while the sg space is tilted importantly, but remaining working to have sg space altered are two distinct matters for me. I already admitted fault for having been a poster in that space while Scott and Bob were banned; and I openly asked forgiveness for having so posted; I learned. I now broadly request that every poster around the world in the sg space post an ultimatum to sg:

" Sg, unban Scott and Bob and Joe and probably some others, alter your policies severely or else such is the last posting of this poster."

Within a few days the sg space would be empty of posts unless sg changed; his advertising revenue would begin to be changed; the space would become stale and dated. Positive change might be installed by sg.

I broadly encourage every sg-space poster to work for an alteration of the sg space; I encouraged sg to consider certain principles on his way to a changing of his sg space.
I want back into a future changed sg space; if that sg space remains unchanged from its current status, then that sg space will continue to be impoverished while it impoverishes sectors of the hang gliding community. Other forums are free to advance with principles higher than what are being practiced in the sg space.

Friends are encouraged to keep nourishing their friendship during disagreements. Keep working on the principles involved in the disagreements, but keep positively feeding strands of blessing to each other.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Per Joe's request??

Announcing that I am ending my efforts to get JoeF back into HG.org per his request.

Here's Joe's actual request from just yesterday (see above):

I now broadly request that every poster around the world in the sg space post an ultimatum to sg:

" Sg, unban Scott and Bob and Joe and probably some others, alter your policies severely or else such is the last posting of this poster."

That's my request as well.

Thanks in advance to everyone who can see the value in speaking out for others.

Silence.png (187.11 KiB) Viewed 5795 times

[Frank Colver]

This battle of the forums is utterly stupid! Let HG.org be HG.org and US Hawks be US Hawks!

I don't give a flying fu*k who is banned from HG.org it's Jack's forum and he can run it any way he wishes. It will live or die on its own merits, we can neither kill it nor save it from here. His forum can be useful for discussions he lets continue, because it reaches a lot of pilots. He can censor anything he doesn't like because, well, it's his forum. This is not a free speech issue, it's a private property issue. If I owned a forum I'd like to run it any way I wanted to and if people didn't like it then it would not get much use.

This whole pissing contest about people being banned is going nowhere and I'm sick of it! Jack's never going to reinstate Bob or Scott and why does anyone care, because it's his choice, not ours. He can ban anyone he doesn't like, he doesn't need a reason because it's his property and Bob can ban anyone he chooses from this forum. If you like using Jack's forum then use it, if you don't like using his forum then stay away. We need to concentrate on building an alternative to HG.org, whether it's this forum or another one.

I understand there are people on this earth who hate each other. Go ahead and fight your personal hatred battles but don't put me in the line of fire.

STOP THE BATTLE OF THE FORUMS NOW! (That would make a great T-shirt)

Bob, you got on my case for using big letters but I notice you make a lot of use of even bigger letters than I. But I don't give a sh*t - use one huge letter per page if you like.

Sick of this bullsh*t!
Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Frank,

I posted two fairly harsh replies a few hours earlier. I removed them both because I realized that there's a lot (a whole lot) that you don't know because you weren't active when a lot of these things happened.

Jack Axaopoulos has done a lot of really rotten and underhanded things over the years. He bans people and then changes their own posts whenever he feels like it.

If you want to know the difference between hanggliding.org and the U.S. Hawks, ask Jack Axaopoulos if he banned Al Hernandez and then changed Al's own post to say:

But I like to touch little boys.

Go ahead. Get the truth from the horse's mouth. Ask Jack Axaopoulos if he did that (see the screen shot below).

How would you feel if I banned you and then posted things like that in your own name?

To all the world it looks as though Al Hernandez actually wrote those words. That's how despicable Jack Axaopoulos is. And if that's not enough, go look at http://torreyhawksforum.org and see what Jack did to the club forum that he had "donated" for us. That was our club forum with hundreds of posts by our members. Jack Axaopoulos changed my own posts there as well. Then he recently replaced the entire web site with a smear page. Go look at it.

Red keeps repeating his line that it's just two guys who don't get along. That's a lie. There is no moral equivalence between the high regard we've had for our member's posts and the filthy disgusting things that Jack Axaopoulos has done.

You may not agree with me on everything and you may not always like what I say, but you've always had a fair playing field here. Every criticism you've ever posted is still here and unchanged even though I could wipe it all out any time. That's the difference between what we're building here and the cesspool of lies and deception on hanggliding.org.

Jack even gave you the ultimatum to shut up about Joe Faust or he'd kick you out. Is that the way you want to be treated?

This isn't some little squabble between two people. This is two different futures for the sport of hang gliding. One of them is the twisted lies, greed, and bullying of Jack Axaopoulos and Mark Forbes, and the other is the open and honest love of both hang gliding and fairness here on the U.S. Hawks.

Here's the screen shot of what Jack did to the post of Al Hernandez:

What Jack wrote in Al's post

file.png (56.18 KiB) Viewed 5694 times

[Red]

This battle of the forums is utterly stupid! Let HG.org be HG.org and US Hawks be US Hawks!
I don't give a flying fu*k who is banned from HG.org it's Jack's forum and he can run it any way he wishes. It will live or die on its own merits, we can neither kill it nor save it from here. His forum can be useful for discussions he lets continue, because it reaches a lot of pilots. He can censor anything he doesn't like because, well, it's his forum. This is not a free speech issue, it's a private property issue. If I owned a forum I'd like to run it any way I wanted to and if people didn't like it then it would not get much use.
This whole pissing contest about people being banned is going nowhere and I'm sick of it! Jack's never going to reinstate Bob or Scott and why does anyone care, because it's his choice, not ours. He can ban anyone he doesn't like, he doesn't need a reason because it's his property and Bob can ban anyone he chooses from this forum. If you like using Jack's forum then use it, if you don't like using his forum then stay away. We need to concentrate on building an alternative to HG.org, whether it's this forum or another one.
I understand there are people on this earth who hate each other. Go ahead and fight your personal hatred battles but don't put me in the line of fire.
STOP THE BATTLE OF THE FORUMS NOW! (That would make a great T-shirt)
Bob, you got on my case for using big letters but I notice you make a lot of use of even bigger letters than I. But I don't give a sh*t - use one huge letter per page if you like.
Sick of this bullsh*t!
Frank

Frank,
Sorry, but you may be wasting electrons there; Bob only hears what Bob wants to hear. Nice try, though. You know, I do like what you said.
I think I'm gonna waste some electrons here, too . . .

Campers,

Note the date of the "changed" post which Bob cited, July 10, 2011.
https://ushawks.org/forum/download/file.php?id=9943&sid=68c8a867afd08d7c9709f830b73682a4
Bob has been nurturing this old grudge for what, seven+ years, with nothing constructive to show for it yet. He may be just generating more hate, but that's a pitiful goal, for any alleged HG forum. Bob still harbors other personal grudges, even older. Who wants to be part of that?

You should know, Bob has to crank up others to do his fighting for him now, because he was an early casualty of his own uneducated tactics. Imagine a combat squad leader telling you, "Hey, I thought a night attack would work; those enemy soldiers in that machine gun nest had no right to use tracer ammo!" It's just one of Murphy's Laws of Combat: No strategy or battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy, intact. It's very obvious to me, this boy was never at the wrong end of a long-range mortar barrage in real life. Raging at the people firing those mortars just does not help.

Maybe somebody should tell Bob, his high horse is no "war charger;" it is a lame old mule. Bob's "armor" is not shining, it was made from old beer cans. His "battle lance" is just a useless broken broomstick. This lousy "Man of LaMancha" crusade is pure BS. Bob thinks the only way to win is by destroying an enemy. If he studied the writings of Sun Tsu, or the USA Pacific campaign of WW-II, he might learn that the toughest fortresses do not need to be brought down, just bypassed and cut off, to wither on the vine.

He wants us to listen to his "high" level of morality, but remember, this dreck is coming from BobK, who can not understand the simple concepts of "Private Property" or a sign saying "Please keep off the grass." If you have worked to make a fine front lawn for your house, then Bob will want to play polo there, and nobody should have the right to stop him. Really?

I can imagine that Bob is right now filling his poison pen with vitriol again. Yeah, I know, Bob has taken to SHOUTING lately, so you certainly know he's running out of ideas there. What will it be this time, Bob? More character assassinations? More insults? Bullying? Innuendo? Trying to compare li'l Bob's tempest-in-a-teapot squabbles with the true moral struggles of our lifetimes? I have told him straight out; I post where and when I please, and nobody has the right to tell me (or anybody else) what or where to post. I also told him: aside from my own good judgment, another reason I refuse his demands to shill for him is because it makes Bob foam at the mouth, and spit venom everywhere. It's kinda funny to watch, but truly, it's kinda sad, too. I would actually prefer to see Bob enjoying the sunlight, not holed up in a dark place, just spewing more hate. It's no way to live a life, Bob. Don't waste your limited lifetime on hate.