[Bob Kuczewski]

Red,

You write a lot of words to cover the fact that you stood by and watched a fellow human being be bullied and silenced. You're the one spewing venom and spinning fanciful imagery because you don't want to face the facts that can be stated in that simple 24 word sentence (see previous).

I can understand your need to do so because you're too ashamed of what you've done to face yourself. So you lash out at me as a diversion. That doesn't change a thing other than gain you some more boot licking points with your master Jack.

Here's the bottom line that you refuse to face:

    You watched Joe Faust be banned by Jack Axaopoulos and you did nothing.

Take note: There are only three people referenced in that sentence ... and none of them are me.

[Red]

Like I said, it was a waste of electrons.

I blame you, Bob, for not warning Joe that he was walking into a buzz saw. What did you THINK was going to happen? Joe is your friend, and YOU did NOTHING.

What anybody else does after that ugly fact is immaterial. Re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic if you will, but I had nothing to do with any of it.

I am certainly NOT your on-call repair man, after you let the the wreck happen.

Write another bad speech for me to deliver. See if I will do your bidding.

*LOL*

[Bob Kuczewski]

I blame you, Bob, for not warning Joe that he was walking into a buzz saw. What did you THINK was going to happen? Joe is your friend, and YOU did NOTHING.

Your memory might be failing you Red. Joe was there during the Jack Axaopoulos HGAA fiasco of 2010. Joe knew the buzz saw (your own words) of your buddy Jack Axaopoulos. And just as in 2010, Joe stood up for the rights of others and the sport of hang gliding ... while you did nothing.

You did nothing in 2010 and you did nothing in 2018. The record is clear on both counts. The only difference is that you can't claim you didn't know about it this time. The record is clear on that as well.

Red, I don't blame you for being mad, but I do blame you for not doing the right thing to fix it.

[Red]

Bob,

You seem to think that I am involved in this mess somehow. NONE of this dreck is any of my business.

You should be convinced by now, but I will say it straight, one more time. I am not, and will not be, involved in any of this mess.

It is beyond foolish for you to think otherwise.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob,

You seem to think that I am involved in this mess somehow. NONE of this dreck is any of my business.

You should be convinced by now, but I will say it straight, one more time. I am not, and will not be, involved in any of this mess.

It is beyond foolish for you to think otherwise.

Gee, you seem to be quite involved in this mess. How many slanderous quotes of yours do we have in just a few topics so far?

Furthermore, maybe you should read some of the quotes Scott posted. If you've already read them once, you might need a refresher. Here's a good one to start with:

Silence.png (187.11 KiB) Viewed 4713 times

Maybe you can adapt some of your Don Quixote rhetoric to slander Dr. King while you're on a roll.

[Bob Kuczewski]

As a side note, there's no way to ignore the fact that these have been painful topics. Some friends of many years have been pitted against each other. It's fair - very fair - to ask if it's worth it.

The sport of hang gliding is in trouble right now. We're losing sites and we're losing pilots. There are a number of factors that have contributed to that decline, and one of them is the fragmenting of our community by organizations like USHPA, hanggliding.org, and ozforum.com. Each of those organizations has chosen to fracture the hang gliding community for their own benefit.

Everyone in any of those 3 organizations is welcome to post here to discuss these problems, but the reverse is not true. What would King Solomon deduce from that situation?

Joe Faust's banning is a watershed moment because it clearly divides those who are willing to stand up for their fellow pilots and those who are not. Whether it's Jack's private living room or not, there are standards of fairness that we all understand. The "golden rule" is universal. There's not one among the naysayers who would like to be banned as Joe has been (that's why you're all scared to speak up). But you allow it to be done to Joe as long as it Isn't done to you. So much for the "golden rule".

Every one of you knows that it's your duty as a fellow human being to speak up. If you get banned for simply saying something is wrong, then you didn't belong there in the first place.

Remember Concord?
Remember Lexington?
Remember the Alamo?
Remember Pearl Harbor?

Remember Joe Faust.

[Red]

Bob,

It would be beyond foolish for you to try to involve me in your tempest-in-a-teapot squabbles.

All of this mess relates to you. None of it is any of my business.

I suggest that you ask one of your sheeple to do what you can not do yourself. I will not be any part of your silly crusade.

*LOL*

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob,

... you ... your ...

... you ...

... you ... your ... you ... yourself ... your ...

For anyone who needs a review ...

Red,
  :
    You watched Joe Faust be banned by Jack Axaopoulos and you did nothing.

Take note: There are only three people referenced in that sentence ... and none of them are me.

Please read that last sentence a few times.

I am just recording the history of what happened and who stood silent. If you don't like that ... then don't be silent. It's as simple as that. Thanks.

For the record, Red has had plenty of posts here where he could have explained why he feels it's more important for his voice to be heard than it is for Joe Faust's voice to be heard. So far, Red hasn't given much in the way of that explanation. Instead he's continually tried to blame the messenger. So I'll repeat again, that what Red should do has nothing to do with what I think he should do or not. I'm just recording the history that he's making with his own actions.

[Bob Kuczewski]

                                                                                                                                                

I'm going to again make a comparison to racial discrimination, and I can already hear the complaints. Please hear me out.

Our country has had a long struggle with the issue of racial discrimination. It's forced us to look at the principles of fairness between humans who often don't want to be fair. It's forced us to look at justice and the kinds of guarantees that we want to grant to each other to live in a civil society. These were hard fought lessons that cost many people their lives. It is foolish to ignore them or to narrowly define them. We should build on these lessons and use the clarity that we've gained in hindsight to improve our fairness and justice in all of our endeavors.

If we were in Jack's coffee shop or living room and he ejected one of our friends for racial reasons, I'd like to think that each of us - each of us - would be offended and we would leave as well. We wouldn't stand around making excuses about it being a "private" coffee shop or even a private residence. We would grab our things and head out the door ... maybe with a few choice words on the way. If there's anyone here who would stay under those circumstances when our friend was ejected, SPEAK UP NOW.
.
. tick ... tock
.
. tick ... tock
.

O.K., I'm assuming everyone would have left. That includes Frank, Tom, and Mike. But now you're going to complain that Joe wasn't kicked out for racial reasons. He was kicked out for something else. Fair enough, let's talk about that.

In the case where you would have left for racial discrimination, what were you saying by leaving? You were saying that YOU would NOT be a party to the mistreatment of another person. You weren't kicking anyone out, but you recognized that staying would be both a betrayal of your friend and an implicit condoning of the actions against him. How is the banning of Joe Faust for promoting USHGRS any different?

There has been some muddled thinking that YOU wouldn't have banned Joe Faust, but it's somehow O.K. if someone else does it. But it was either right or wrong by YOUR own standards. Those are the standards that should guide YOU in deciding what YOU should do. If there is a judgement day, YOU won't be judged by Jack's standards or what Jack did. YOU will be judged by YOUR standards. So all this crap about Jack doing what he wants in his living room or coffee shop is just a bunch of excuses because YOU don't want to do what YOU know is right. I can see that, Joe can see that, Scott can see that, and I'm sure - if He exists - God can see that.

So stop trying to use Jack's ownership of his property as an excuse for what YOU should be doing. In the end, it's not about Bob or Joe or even Jack. It's about each of YOU and what kind of people YOU are. We're trying to build a better hang gliding association here at the U.S. Hawks. I firmly believe that a better hang gliding association will require BETTER PEOPLE. We will need BETTER PEOPLE than Mark Forbes, BETTER PEOPLE than Jack Axaopoulos, and BETTER PEOPLE than Davis Straub. In my opinion, the banning of Joe Faust is a litmus test to separate those who have what we'll need from those who don't. That test may reduce our numbers, but the quality will go through the roof. Despite the harsh words we've had, I believe in each of you or I wouldn't be writing this. I know I've made it much harder for any of you to reverse course with this public rebuke. But that shouldn't matter either. You should do what YOU know is right regardless of what anyone else says or does.

Thanks for your time.

                                                                                                                                                

[Red]

Bob,

You know, you have been badgering me to go and become your mouthpiece on HG.ORG for what, more than a year? Lately (since about two months ago), you have added Joe Faust's good name to your campaign to run my life for me. Your tactics stink on that issue so far, but I gave you constant assurances from the first day, that I will NOT be your puppet. My decision remains unchanged; in part, that is a direct result of your excessive noise and abuse toward me about it. I can tell you plainly, I give you a firm NO on your attempts to dictate "my script" to me, and telling me where to say those words.

I find it interesting that I am in the great majority here, of the members on this forum; I have not seen anybody from this forum posting on HG.ORG about your complaints. Almost any member of the Hawks can go and be your puppet there. Please ask one of them, individually and repeatedly, who have so far (like me) said nothing about your complaints to the owner of that forum. Why have you not asked the membership here, and tried to manipulate them to get the answer that you want from them? Are you so sure that almost all of the members here will fail your little "litmus test," one by one?

If Joe wants to be a member of HG.ORG and post there, then he (not I) should contact the owner there and sort out any issues between themselves. It is no business of mine; I refuse to be involved. Almost anybody here can act as middleman in that transaction if needed, but I suspect that you do not want the issue settled; you just enjoy creating endless chaos and strife. Nobody (sane) can believe that your little tempest-in-a-teapot BS is in any way comparable to real social issues such as race relations. That tactic is purely a propaganda ploy, and it does not fit the situation at all.

Here you have my final answer: go ask somebody else to be your puppet. I will NOT do your bidding.