[Red]

[quote="wingspan33"]But the time has come for you to mute the negativity. It's not time for arguments or justifications. It's time to STOP. Even an 8 year old can understand the word STOP. I'm sure it's part of your vocabulary (one of the words you know).Scott,

More attacks by BobK, and now you jump in, too. I was just sitting here all peaceful, and this starts up again.

Let me say it straight. I come here to discuss HG, not to fend off endless attacks. I refuse to shill for BobK on Jack's forum. Jack may know nothing about this mess.
What do you call somebody who posts a Wall of Shame, trying to reverse the careful decisions of others?
The term CYBER BULLY seems to me like a good fit. What do you call it? I had nothing to do with that dreck.

Please make BobK quit this coercion against me.

Thank you.

[Bob Kuczewski]

What do you call somebody who posts a Wall of Shame, trying to reverse the careful decisions of others?

Ummm ... "Founding Fathers of the United States of America"?

 
To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

                 - https://billofrightsinstitute.org/found ... ependence/

Lookey there. It appears that there's a "Wall of Shame" right there in the Declaration of Independence. How American is that?

[Bob Kuczewski]

The term CYBER BULLY seems to me like a good fit.

1. Jack Axaopoulos is the CYBER BULLY in this situation. He threatens people. He bans people. He actually changes people's posts (as documented from 2011 through 2018).

2. You were well aware of these ongoing abuses and you remained silent.

3. I have reported the facts that I have witnessed in an attempt to stop Jack's CYBER BULLYING.

4. Your foul posts in this topic alone have far surpassed the abusiveness of anyone else on this entire forum.

[wingspan33]

But the time has come for you to mute the negativity. It's not time for arguments or justifications. It's time to STOP. Even an 8 year old can understand the word STOP. I'm sure it's part of your vocabulary (one of the words you know).

Scott,

More attacks by BobK, and now you jump in, too.

SG Junior, You've posted at least twice since I told you to STOP. I'm now convinced that that word is NOT in your vocabulary (those are words that many adults know the meaning of). I think you should look it up.

A few posts ago Bob quoted your own post where you started the ATTACK upon Bob K in this thread. It's there in black and white! You are a dishonest liar.

And in connection with your favorite big (?) word "Coercion" and/or "Coerce", here's some context -

"verb (used with object), co·erced, co·erc·ing.

1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual."

As to #1, Bob K has never used force against you, so we can rule that method out. Did Bob intimidate you (meaning of intimidation - intentional behavior that "would cause a person of ordinary sensibilities" to fear injury or harm.)? I can't see how Bob's statements could cause you to fear injury or harm (implied to be physical in nature), so we can rule that one out (unless you have non-ordinary sensibilities?). As for Bob's use of his authority, it's VERY clear you have no respect for Bob, so that nullifies any fear you may perceive associated with that factor.

As to #2, Once again this brings up force. But it includes "other forms of compulsion". Well what is "compulsion"? Here we have to look at the root word "compel". And we find - "to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly". Once again force is being used, which we have ruled out. But compel also includes - "to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure". Since you haven't accepted the advice or suggestion that Bob made about helping Joe F get reinstated over at sg.org, then he has not used overwhelming pressure.

Then there's #3, The relevant part here would be "by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.". What fear and/or anxiety of yours has Bob exploited? Maybe you can tell us instead of attacking Bob. Bob shouldn't be producing fear or anxiety in US Hawks members. And I don't think he is.

But then there's Bob's "Wall of Shame". Well, aka Red, you've never claimed that you feel ashamed about not speaking up on Joe's behalf over there on sg.org. But you have posted some 20 plus responses to the US Hawks since Bob put up that topic. And to think you only had some 50 prior posts altogether since you joined the US Hawks back in 2010! That's only 50 +- posts in 8 years, until very recently.

I think you do feel ashamed! But it's your LACK of action that would be behind that feeling - not Bob, who may have helped it to rise to the surface.

But I think there is also fear and pressure from authority involved. However those factors emanate from sg.org. The fear of being banned by Jack if you speak up in support of Joe. And that comes directly from a clear understanding of Jack's abusive authority as the little dictator over on sg.org.

It's as clear as day that it is Jack the Axe that is COERCING you (indirectly*) to effectively go on the war path against Bob K.

And as I have already said, it's time to STOP.


* Or maybe it really is Jack who's got your password to the US Hawks

I was just sitting here all peaceful, and this starts up again.

Let me say it straight. I come here to discuss HG, not to fend off endless attacks.

You don't come here to discuss hang gliding! Around 50 posts over 8 years? People visit relatives they don't like more often than that! And as to "endless attacks" you are the one picking fights, fabricating BS, and defaming at least one person's character on this web site.

I refuse to shill for BobK on Jack's forum.

But you'll sure as sh*t shill for Jack on the US Hawks forum. And you know it was never about Bob, aka Red. It was about Joe Faust. And turning a blind eye to that issue also speaks volumes about your character.

Jack may know nothing about this mess.

What do you call somebody who posts a Wall of Shame, trying to reverse the careful decisions of others?

I think Bob covered that in a post not too far above this one.

The term CYBER BULLY seems to me like a good fit. What do you call it? I had nothing to do with that dreck.

What it says just above I call "BS"

Please make BobK quit this coercion against me.

Again BS, as made clear above. It's all in your mind aka Red.

[Red]

Scott,

Yeah, I agree, it's really past time to stop. Obviously I will not change my decision; I will not shill for BobK, and I probably shouldn't try to talk about my decisions, here.
I have NO responsibility for the status quo, and I will make no effort to change it. Please ask BobK to ask others, not me, to do what he wants.

So, in consideration of your direct order to stop, I will.

[Rick Masters]

I was not planning to post on the Hawks again.
But I will, one last time.
Red is and has been for many years an example for hang glider pilots to look up to.
Like other accomplished individuals who have recently left the Hawks, he offered a lot of deep knowledge and promise toward making hang gliding great again.
You idiots have destroyed that.
You are engaged in pointless self-sarcophagy.
I want no part of it.
You have ruined any future the Hawks might have played in rebuilding our sport.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
You will never accomplish anything.
Find me elsewhere.

[wingspan33]

Rick,

As I said in my last post to this thread, aka Red only posted a few more than 50 times in 8 years. Yea, he's a GREAT asset to the US Hawks!

He did not "Offer a lot of deep knowledge". He offered some knowledge every once in a while. The web site he includes in his signature takes people to sg.org, not to the US Hawks. If you think he provided some "promise" to make hang gliding great again, then you have been misled.

And Rick, you have worked to destroy paragliding! You should be ashamed of yourself! EVERYBODY knows paragliding is better than hang gliding! At least now that you have abandoned the US Hawks (and your soap box here) a lot more people will see the positive promise that PGs offer.

You, Rick, are a hypocrite. You once protested here against soaring parachutes (almost all the time) and Bob (now and then) protested against bad stuff that happened over on sg.org. There's no difference! But you had a hissy fit about Bob protesting something that impeded the progress of hang gliding beyond the USHPA's insurance scheme model (that being Joe Faust's independent rating system) and off you went.

As I said, that makes me think of someone who's not able to see the bigger picture, a person who doesn't see connections, but instead sees divisions. It's all about divide and concur. And you've allowed yourself to be divided - from your anti-PG platform on the US Hawks. The PG faction has won, Rick! Wonderful, wonderful! Hang gliding has lost! Are you proud of yourself, Mr. Owens Valley XC pilot extraordinaire?

Think about what I've said. If you have a change of heart I figure you will be welcomed back. If you don't return then the "other side" has won. And they will be ginning broadly in the new year. You really want to make them happy? I can't imagine that you do. But then, I wouldn't have thought that you'd abandon the US Hawks either.

I'll finish by paraphrasing you -

You have removed yourself from any future the Hawks will play in rebuilding our sport.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
You will never accomplish anything (all on your lonesome).

I was not planning to post on the Hawks again.
But I will, one last time.
Red is and has been for many years an example for hang glider pilots to look up to.
Like other accomplished individuals who have recently left the Hawks, he offered a lot of deep knowledge and promise toward making hang gliding great again.
You idiots have destroyed that.
You are engaged in pointless self-sarcophagy.
I want no part of it.
You have ruined any future the Hawks might have played in rebuilding our sport.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
You will never accomplish anything.
Find me elsewhere.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I was composing while Scott was posting, and he's made a lot of good points. I apologize for any overlap of my parallel effort. One thing that was in Scott's post but not mine is that Rick is always welcome back to the U.S.Hawks. That's really true of anyone who's left us. The U.S. Hawks holds high standards, but not personal grudges. Thanks for adding that point Scott.

Rick, I went searching for one of your many posts proclaiming the demise of USHPA as you've just proclaimed the demise of the U.S. Hawks. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader because I happened to find this more relevant post along the way:

Frank, you know we did all that stuff in the USHGA.
Look what eventually happened: they embraced parachuting and hang gliding was crippled!
Just because USHPA hasn't told you to shut up like they have me doesn't put you on a high horse.
How can you and the other USHPA hang glider pilots tolerate such betrayal?

Let me condense it for effect:

Frank,
  :
How can you and the other USHPA hang glider pilots tolerate such betrayal?

It sure sounds like Rick is shaming Frank right there. Hypocrisy? Enough said on that topic.

Red is and has been for many years an example for hang glider pilots to look up to.

Actually, Red is an example of what's wrong with the sport. All of the bad things that have recently happened in hang gliding have happened because pilots have failed to speak up. You, Rick, should know that about as well as anyone. You have spoken up ... and paid the price. Scott has spoken up and paid the price. Joe has spoken up and paid the price. I have spoken up and paid the price. Red has not. There's no nicer way to say that.

The sport of hang gliding doesn't need someone telling new pilots how to use wheels and variometers. That's nice and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are plenty of places to get that information (it's nice that Red's site is among them).

What's missing in the sport of hang gliding is a way to bring large numbers of pilots together to overthrow the current entrenched monopoly. USHPA won't dare to create such a communication system because they're scared to death of what would happen. So USHPA is more than happy to exert their control at arms length through their puppet organizations that you've aptly dubbed the "doppleganger" sites.

What's missing in the sport of hang gliding is people with a backbone to stand up to the likes of Mark Forbes and Jack Axaopoulos. If we had more people with the courage to speak up and be leaders, all of the other problems would be solved.

I see the U.S. Hawks as an incubator for those kinds of people and leaders. Those are the people we want to attract and keep and defend (because they'll surely be attacked). Joe Faust, for example, has a lifetime of contributing ideas and leadership. His latest brainchild (USHGRS) could revolutionize the sport of hang gliding in ways that Red's advice on wheels and variometers can't even touch. I'd trade a thousand "Reds" for one Joe Faust. And yet Red can't even lift a few keystroke fingers to speak up for Joe Faust's ability to address a wider audience? That's exactly the opposite of what we need. Good riddance.

The rest of your post, Rick, appears to be an effort to slap those of us who've worked to build an alternative to USHPA. When you've built a better one, let us know. If you're not so vindictive to bar me from membership, I'll happily join it. That's a sincere statement because I don't care who builds the better mousetrap ... as long as it gets built. If that's what you plan to do, then I wish you the best of luck.

[Free]

Putting good people and friends in the cross hairs instead of Jack Axaopolous was a strategic blunder.
It's time to make amends. The push to have them commit relative suicide for questionable goals was too much to ask.

Bob, your target coordinates were wrong. A little goading pressure, as far as targeting your friends, was as far as it should have gone.
This should not have been pushed so far as to put your friends on the same wall of shame as the lying coward, Jack Axaopolous.

Take them off the list, apologize and try to win back the friendships that have been damaged.
The only good thing you can claim out of this is publicity of the initial transgression. They say all publicity is good.
Maybe, but not so good if you lose friends over it.

Your friends did not agree with your strategy. Try to leave it at that and move forward without destroying these friendships.

[Bill Cummings]

Putting good people and friends in the cross hairs instead of Jack Axaopolous was a strategic blunder.
It's time to make amends. The push to have them commit relative suicide for questionable goals was too much to ask.

Bob, your target coordinates were wrong. A little goading pressure, as far as targeting your friends, was as far as it should have gone.
This should not have been pushed so far as to put your friends on the same wall of shame as the lying coward, Jack Axaopolous.

Take them off the list, apologize and try to win back the friendships that have been damaged.
The only good thing you can claim out of this is publicity of the initial transgression. They say all publicity is good.
Maybe, but not so good if you lose friends over it.

Your friends did not agree with your strategy. Try to leave it at that and move forward without destroying these friendships.

I agree.