Bob,
If I were trying to bring together a group of pilots to improve the sport of hang gliding, I would ask you to steer clear.
Improve it to what point? To the point at which I can say to my (or anybody's) nephew, "Sure, just go to ANY US Hawks certified program. You'll be fine." I one hundred percent guarantee you that that ain't never gonna happen as a consequence of the actions of a group of "pilots" - especially the direction things have been going lately.
A "pilot", in the commonly accepted definition of the word in hang gliding culture, is someone who can launch; steer up, down, left, and right; maybe soar a little bit; and land for two or three consecutive years without breaking an arm.
He is not someone who:
- knows how to make sure he's gonna be connected to his glider when he decides to run off the cliff;
- is qualified to design, certify, or evaluate a glider or towing system;
- has a freakin' clue about what's going on with the aerodynamics and control forces affecting his wing - on or off tow.
Let's face it - a typical "pilot" - even without the quotation marks, one from REAL aviation - tends not to be terribly bright.
And a GROUP of them? You know how to calculate group intelligence, right?
"Pilots" have had the better part of four decades to make a stab at getting things right - with massively predictable results. I think it might be worthwhile to try giving people with triple digit IQs a shot at the problems and see what happens before you let groups of idiot "pilots" back in to start destroying everything again.
...and you don't seem to have any interest in helping us build a better organization.
A BETTER organization? I have TONS of interest in helping to build a BETTER organization. But when I see this one accelerating to warp speed down the path that USHGA took I'm gonna toss a monkey wrench before we get into too much more of a Sorcerer's Apprentice thing.
Or maybe people with the intellectual capacity to merit being in the process can just stay in rational respectful conversations with me - TO THE POINTS OF RESOLUTION - and maybe we can redirect towards two plus two equals four.
So rather than having you become an increasingly bitter and destructive force at US Hawks, let me ask you to devote all of your time to building Kite Strings.
This is just like USHGA and me. If y'all have everything right and I'm wrong, then I'm not a threat. As a matter of fact... y'all can gain valuable experience learning how to properly neutralize me. That way when Hawks hits the ten grand mark and somebody else somewhat like me comes along you'll know exactly how to deal with him.
How does that sound?
Ban me. But when you do then modify your FAQs (SOPs) to honestly express the asterisks in your foundation, foundation, policies, values, ideals.
Take your attitude toward Sam as a good example example. I believe you've completely misjudged him and you've allowed yourself to go off on a tangent "jihad" against Sam for no good reason.
Nah. Sam's a dangerous asshole. Period. I judged him perfectly immediately upon first contact. Same way I judged Jack as being someone with whom it would be a monumentally bad idea to associate in the building of a new organization - or in the asking of the time of day. And I don't think I've ever seen any evidence that that's a reversible condition.
I believe you've done so because you felt some personal slight to your ego, and you can't let it go.
Has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any personal slights to my ego. If he had behaved the same way that he did with me in an exchange with ANYBODY else on ANY matter he'd still be a dangerous asshole and I'd still have the same level of contempt for him.
I've never had any direct or indirect contact or communication with Jerry Forburger. He's a dangerous asshole because of a letter to the editor of Hang Gliding published in the 2001/01 issue attacking Steve Goldman - a major good guy from WAY back. And he was a dangerous asshole a bit over a decade before that because of everything he did and didn't do and say leading up and in response to the Eric Aasletten fatality.
And follow the logic here...
Zack C - 2011/08/26
Wow. The irony. The ARROGANCE. And people call TAD arrogant...I can see why you have so much contempt for this guy, Tad.
Sam Kellner - 2011/09/10
I was working up some harmony for Rooney Tunes.
1. Think there's some chance that Zack ALSO has a lot of contempt for Rooney?
2. Think it's possible that Zack can see why I have so much contempt for people who work up harmony for Rooney Tunes?
3. Think it's possible that Zack might ALSO have a lot of contempt for people working up harmony for Rooney Tunes?
Nobody - 2011/07/21
Complicated? 99% of this stuff a ten year old could figure out in a day or two.
We understand this stuff, we've known how to do it for decades, we knew how to do it before hang gliding existed, but the dangerous a**holes who control this sport are gonna make sure that we never get to make it happen.
This is a war. It's good people with triple digit IQs and ten year old kid common sense against liars, frauds, scumbags, and dangerous incompetent a**holes.
Sam's aligned himself with Davis, Rooney, Jim Gaar, and a bunch of other gene pool crud. He gives aid and comfort to the enemy every chance he gets. He's NEVER coming off of my list.
And I am thinking about knocking him off of Kite Strings 'cause:
Zack C - 2010/11/23
The purpose of Kite Strings is to foster serious discussion regarding the practices and technologies of modern hang gliding. This is a forum ruled by science, truth, facts, reason, and logic. Anyone with a respect for these principles and a willingness to learn and engage in rational discussion is welcome to participate.
a) there's no way in hell that Sam - or any of that batch of clones - is ever gonna come within a thousand miles of fitting that bill or make the slightest effort to do so; and
b) I don't wanna be reminded of his existence every time I check the place for activity.
P.S. Note that Peter has personally slighted the hell out of me and I don't have anywhere near the contempt for him that I do for Sam. At least Peter bothers to read what I've said before he calls me an asswipe. And Peter's just smart enough to be worried that I might know what I'm talking about.
Peter,
Stacks up pretty good, thank you very much...
That isn't an answer to my question. My question was/is...
WHAT PROBLEMS OF ONE POINT USING A KOCH TWO STAGE OR TWO POINT (ONE TO ONE) IS A TWO TO ONE BRIDLE SOLVING?
And if you can't answer that (and you can't) you then prove my statement that...
Anyone using a Hewett Bridle doesn't have a clue regarding the basic physics of hang glider towing (or kite flying).
Several dozen at only the 2 local aerotow clubs... several dozen too many.
1. Which aerotow clubs?
2. I would consider ONE such malfunction from the contributions of all the idiot AT operations in the country WAY too many and an EXTREMELY serious incident. So where are the reports and advisories? Why is there absolutely no mention of this problem in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?
3. And as skilled as these thugs are at suppressing incident and crash data there are ALWAYS a few people who blab something before they're paid off or killed. So how come I haven't heard a single first hand account of one of these?
4. How come one of these never seems to have happened at Ridgely - where I kept my eyes open, nose to the ground, and ear to the wire for a very long time?
5. I've had a couple of really nasty lockouts and the bridle remained rather nicely centered.
6. If people are tying bridles to nose wires that much I would expect to hear of somebody's day being seriously ruined every once in a while. I'm not hearing anything.
7. Where are the YouTube videos?
8. I get a fair number of people contacting me because they're fed up with the dangerous junk the Flight Park Mafia is sending them up on and they're not the least bit shy about reporting on the malfunctions they've experienced, witnessed, and heard about. That one ain't in my collection.
Any chance I can get a first hand account with somebody's real name on it?
1. With my configuration I can instantly release the top and, if necessary due to a wrap, the bottom end of the bridle while maintaining control pressure on the basetube.
2. With your configuration...
You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
...you WILL dangerously compromise what control of your glider you have in a nasty situation.
3. Let's say that in a lockout my chances of tying the top of my bridle to a nose wire are one in five.
4. I can still release from the bottom.
5. If the bottom ties itself to the tow ring I've still got a prayer that the tug driver will cut me some slack.
6. So if I lock out low, the top of the bridle ties itself to a nose wire, the bottom of the bridle ties itself to the tow ring, and the tug driver doesn't react then I'm f***ed.
7. I'm going with my configuration because there's a pretty good record out there that people who hafta take a hand off the basetube to release in the course of a low level lockout are about fifteen times more likely to die than people who don't.
Because at the top of tow, my headset screwed up and I couldn't tell the driver to stop, so she kept driving and started pulling me down, increasing tension to the point that the pin wouldn't pull.
1. So I was RIGHT. The problem WAS that it was a two-string with inadequate step-down. (I ALWAYS thought those things were stupid. Thanks for the confirmation.)
2. A weak link is a MUCH better device than a radio for limiting maximum tow tension. What were you using for a weak link?
3. You're not supposed to go up unless you're quite sure your release can easily handle weak link - even if there ARE tens of thousands of a**holes flying Bailey Releases. So why did you go up?
4. Think maybe a third string is a little more effective safety device than a hook knife? If I offered you a choice between a third string and a hook knife which one would you take?
5. If you'd been locking out low with your idiot-two string and a screwed up headset would your driver have just pulled you into the ground while you were trying to fish your trusty ol' hook knife out of its sheath 'cause she wasn't hearing anything? Does a ten year old kid need to hear anything from his kite in order to know that if it's heading for the ground that it might be a good idea to stop running into the wind?
On the old 3-ring circus, after a few years, the main ring webbing would stretch, making release nearly impossible.
1. So maybe Dacron or Spectra webbing would've been a better idea?
2. Not an issue on a three-STRING anyway. And NOBODY has used a three-ring for decades.
And one time on a 3-ring, I was using a rubber band for friction to keep the pin from working its way out...
I can think of a couple of WAY better solutions to that problem.
...and I neglected to see that my "helper" had put the rubber band over the last ring. There are all sorts of ways to screw up, from pilot error to mechanical error.
1. A good basic design - like the Mason Release - pretty much eliminates them all from the equation. I'd guess that a Mason is more idiot resistant than the Linknife configuration.
2. Somebody too stupid to hook up a three-string properly should probably find another hobby anyway.
3. And so what you're saying is that for anybody flying a good three-string design who's not too stupid to hook up properly the Linknife really doesn't offer anything of a safety advantage, right?
Purpose of a weaklink is to keep a blown launch from getting worse by being dragged.
That's it. THE purpose of the weak link is to keep from getting dragged AFTER you've...
...breaking four ribs and my larynx...
...broken four ribs and your larynx or...
HURT HANG-GLIDER pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.
Elliott shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.
...broken four bones in your neck and damaged several blood vessels that supply blood to your brain.
Boy, with a heavier weak link you might break FIVE ribs or bones in your neck and only live in an induced coma till Sunday.
How 'bout this one, Peter?
DocSoc - 2008/01/13
Florida Ridge Air Sports Park
Yesterday was a very emotional day for me and my household. My better half did something that I really didn't expect from a medical student/mother/busy no time to waste...
This would be the final flight of the day, just in front of her was a student tandem flight about to launch, so I was headed back to the car to finalize the packing up when I heard the tug make the familiar sound it does when a weak link breaks.
I looked back to see the tug circle around and saw a wing turned up in a WHACK configuration. I was like "wow". Then I noticed it wasn't the tandem but Sherb-Air's Falcon 170.
When I got there her nose was lacerated and her lip was bleeding (yeah, she had a full face helmet) and the dolly's left wheel was missing.
The radiography showed acute multiple fractures around the top and head of the humerus. Her nose didn't break but she may have hairline fractures to the septum. She had a hard time remembering the date, day, names of her kids, number of kids, and other basic things...
The dolly had hit a huge hole and she went left shoulder into the ground at 25+ mph. The weak link did its job and may have saved her life.
Good thing that 130 pound Greenspot fulfilled its purpose and kept her for getting dragged. She might have REALLY been hurt. (Anybody hear anything from Sherb-Air lately? How's her flying career going now that she's all better?)
Purpose of a weaklink is to keep a blown launch from getting worse by being dragged.
bulls***.
1. The way to keep from getting dragged is to not blow a launch.
2. You can't afford to have blown launches at ramps or runways because blown launches - no matter what you're flying - can seriously and permanently phuck you up.
3. So you don't waste everybody's time talking about how you're gonna mitigate the effects - AFTER you've blown the launch - so you only end up hospitalized for weeks instead of months. You make goddam sure you don't blow launches.
4. You make goddam sure you don't blow launches by:
a) knowing what the phuck you're doing in the first place;
b) having ribbons along the runway;
c) using a properly designed cart that's been tested, proven, and preflighted;
d) using a release which allows you to abort a tow with BOTH hands on the basetube three milliseconds after YOU make the decision;
e) having a pretty good reason for not using wheels which actually turn when they contact the runway;
f) NEVER flying at Florida Ridge;
g) using a one and a half G weak link.
1. If you can't configure yourself and time your launch to get safely off the ground you better have a release system which allows you to abort before the nose plants.
2. If you can't configure yourself and time your launch to get safely off the ground and don't have a release system which allows you to abort before the nose plants you better have a driver who has some clue as to what's going on at the other end of the line.
3. If you can't configure yourself and time your launch to get safely off the ground, don't have a release system which allows you to abort before the nose plants, and don't have a driver who has some clue as to what's going on at the other end of the line a 1.5 G weak link is gonna blow within the same millisecond as a 0.8 G weak link - and that'll be right after you've broken four ribs and a larynx.
4. If you can't configure yourself and time your launch to get safely off the ground, don't have a release system which allows you to abort before the nose plants, don't have a driver who has some clue as to what's going on at the other end of the line, and a 1.5 G weak link doesn't blow a millisecond after you've broken four ribs and a larynx - then tough shitt. God has already given you more than enough chances and everybody's gotta die sometime anyway. Might as well be while you're doing something you love.
I'm not the slightest bit worried about blowing a platform or dolly launch or being able to abort any tow a lot faster than any weak link capable of getting me moving can. ALL of the risks associated with getting off the ground are manageable.
What I am EXTREMELY worried about is just coming off the cart, centerpunching a thermal which takes me instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground, going into an over-the-top lockout with both hands on the basetube pulling it well past my knees, and having the fu**ing 0.8 G 130 pound Greenspot blow, some shitheaded Rooney caliber Dragonfly driver make a good decision in the interest of my safety, or my Pitch and Lockout Limiter kick in.
And what you're saying by insisting upon a 0.8 G weak link to serve as a drag preventer is that you know damn well that you won't be able to make your Linknife function when you really need to - any better on the ground than in the air.
Dynamic flight - 2005
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.
And I'm still curious about how you managed to blow that dolly launch. 'Cause even at a s*** operation like Ridgely - where I'd frequently find dollies with three totally flat tires in use on the flight line - I never saw or heard about blown launches EXCEPT...
Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
...as consequences of people trying to use 130 pound weak links as lockout and drag protectors.
The sudden increase of tension makes the weaklink break much quicker than if tension were gradually applied (tested and proven).
bulls***.
Weaklink at .8G was used because in both testing and practice, it worked just fine.
1. To what? Moderate lockouts and stalls to non lethal levels of severity? Limit the damage in blown launches to just four ribs and a larynx? Hold when right after launch you hit a dust devil or centerpunch a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while you're stuffing the bar and thinking that now would be a really bad time to come off tow?
2. What kind of results - in both testing and practice - did you get with 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0? Those are all numbers which USHGA deems appropriate for aerotowing - so obviously you must have tested everything in the range before you optimized at 0.8.
Since using the Linknife in 1995 for both static tow and aerotow, I haven't broken a weaklink while in flight.
1. So? You could've been flying a glider which folds up at 2.5 Gs since 1995 and done just fine with it the whole time. That doesn't mean you'd survive a bad situation with it or that all those previous flights were safe ones.
Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
So OBVIOUSLY that's 'cause you're a WAY better - or lighter - pilot than all these guys, right?
As mentioned above, when tensions are gradually applied (over the span of a few or more seconds), its strength goes to max given the type of line and the knot used. When tensions are instantly increased, a weaklink will break at a far lower value. For example, 130lbs v/s 235lbs.
I'm not buying it.
1. Define "instantly".
2. How come Tost doesn't advise its customers of this phenomenon?
3. How 'bout line and cable manufactures who supply the sailing markets?
4. Are 130 and 235 actual test numbers? What was your methodology?
I think that if you're getting lower numbers in testing it's 'cause there's some inertia / lag time in your instrumentation. I don't buy that fibers blow sooner if you surprise them than they would if you give them time to respond to the threat. And I'd really like to see something from a peer reviewed engineering journal or textbook that says otherwise.
Also...
You're STILL not addressing how it's possible to experience "VERY high towline forces" when you're using a 0.8 G weak link.
1. USHGA and the FAA for hang gliders and the FAA for sailplanes specify a maximum allowable weak link TWO AND A HALF TIMES that for the plane's MAXIMUM CERTIFIED FLYING WEIGHT.
2. The FAA specifies your precious 0.8 as the MINIMUM legally allowable rating - and that's for the plane when it's loaded to the MAX. And nobody with a freakin' clue flies that low anyway - they go with the manufacture's specification of 1.3 to 1.4 times MAXIMUM CERTIFIED FLYING WEIGHT.
3. USHGA a**holes and scumbags - like Matt and Tracy - refuse to specify a minimum rating 'cause everybody knows that the lighter a weak link is...
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.
...the safer it is.
Peter Birren - 2005/02/08
What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shitt!
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
We came to a consensus about a number of things that directly dealt with Brad's article.
1) The weak link breaking strength should be between 100% and 150% of the combined weight of the glider and pilot (the gross load) being towed, but each pilot should be totally responsible for his own weak link.
But fortunately...
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
...we've got professional a**holes like Tracy, Matt, Adam, and Rooney to be totally responsible for our own weak links.
And if anyone tries to get a halfway sane minimum weak link rating - like the 1.0 Dave thought might possibly have been adequate to keep Eric alive and healthy - he's gonna get the hell attacked out of him by long-time skysailingtowing useless SH*THEADS like Butch Pritchett, Miller Stroud, and Tracy Tillman and long-time US Hawks useless SH*THEADS like Sam Kellner.
And I'm guessing you're totally cool with 0.6 'cause that's pretty close to your ideal drag preventer and it could only enhance the effectiveness of your Pitch, Lockout, and Eric Aasletten Limiter.
But wait a minute...
Using a new weaklink for each flight helps assure that it won't break prematurely...
One of the virtues of the Linknife is that it forces you to use a new weaklink for each flight and this helps to assure that it won't break prematurely.
1. So you DO recognize that there might be at least some small downside to using a Davis/Rooney link that blows six flights in a row.
2. So what's the worst thing you can imagine happening when a weak link breaks prematurely?
What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shitt!
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
Any possibility that a premature weak link break can itself result in "Oh Shitt!"?
Rodney Nicholson - 1986/11
Ontario Hang Gliding Association
In the third and most recent incident, the weak link broke shortly after launch and the end of the tow rope, with metal ring attached, whiplashed back and hit the spotter/winch operator in the eye. At present the chances appear 90% that he will lose the eye completely.
3. Ya wanna at least acknowledge that if the guy for which Mike Robertson was spotting had been using a one and a half G weak link that Mike would have a lot better depth perception than he does now? Or do you wanna pull a Rooney and tell us that an eye is a small price to pay against the certainty that the pilot would've locked out and died had not the weak link blown at that instant?
Yes, you missed the whole point.
No, I didn't. You're endorsing a Pitch and Lockout Limiter instead of designing good systems to enable people to blow to with both hands on the basetube - like everybody had in the Seventies, the Russians, Steve Kinsley, and Yours Truly have developed and provided, all REAL pilots want, and the hang gliding establishment is conning people into believing they don't really need.
In 1990 two 24 year old flyers - Brad Anderson and Eric - were killed because they were flying with Pitch and Lockout Limiters and the scumbag hang gliding establishment - USHGA, the magazine, Forburger, Pagen, and Bryden to name a few - worked their asses off to cover it up and blame everything on the pilot and nothing on the Pitch and Lockout Limiter with which this idiot culture sent him up.
130 pound Greenspot is being used by the Flight Park Mafia scumbags as a Pitch and Lockout Limiter in an attempt to compensate for the shitrigged "release" "systems" they sell and force everybody to use.
Pitch and Lockout Limiters sometimes DO work to save shitt "pilots" using shitt equipment - but at an unconscionable cost which includes fatalities.
You will NEVER develop a better Pitch and Lockout Limiter than you can have by properly training pilots and tow operators and equipping them such that the PILOT stays on or comes off tow ONLY upon HIS CALL AND ACTION - or lack thereof.
Dear readers can make their own opinions from...
1. That's not the title of the page. That's not even on the page - it's a link to it from another page.
2. Pilots - especially hang glider pilots - are way too goddam stupid to be having their own OPINIONS and have proven so in no uncertain terms decade after decade after decade.
3. Aviation has ZERO place for OPINION. Aviation is based on physics and physics is based on two plus two equals four. And two plus two equals four is not an opinion (outside of hang gliding anyway).
4. How long has that page been up there? When is it gonna stop being an opinion and start being something of which you're sure? How much more time do you need to think about it?
Remember writing this on May 13, 2011?
1. No, I didn't. That was a while ago.
2. I made no threat to shoot you in the head. I didn't even call for anybody to shoot you in the head - or anywhere else.
3. I notice you didn't seem to have much of a problem with this sort of thing:
Butch Pritchett - 2009/05/17
No you think you can say what you want when you want because you are not around for some one to bust your nose. So the next thing to do is not be apart of this group so you are not on my e-mail.
from one of your loyal long-time skysailingtowing douchebags when *I* was the target.
4. Anyway... As long as you're suggesting that a Pitch and Lockout Limiter might be a good thing, endorsing the Skyting Criteria as elements of safe towing, and referring to Towing Aloft as an "excellent book", the sentiment stands.
5. Ya wanna do your homework, start understanding the fundamental physics of towing, develop enough common sense to understand that people who hafta take a hand off the basetube to release in the course of a low level lockout are about fifteen times more likely to die than people who don't, and that people who fly weak links south of 1.3 Gs are morons then you stand some small chance of changing that sentiment.
Uh, sorry Tad. "TadErcksn@aol.com" is still a member of the Towing List.
Perhaps. But right about the time you wrote this:
I strangely lost the ability to post. Probably just a software glitch, an unfortunate coincidence - right?.
And if you remember... I had previously written:
2009/05/17
You so much as change one of my commas to a semicolon and you and everybody else might not like what'll likely happen soon thereafter.
And - I'm guessing based on your first first couple of posts here - you DIDN'T like some of the stuff I did afterwards.
Guess it must be easy to think you're ridiculing someone else when you do it to yourself so easily.
I'm not entirely sure the evidence really supports that statement.
Warren,
Most forums would have kicked you off with good reason.
C'mon, he's way more fun that way than he is when he's got lotsa friends and buttons.
I hope you don't give Tad an inferiority complex by correcting his 'banned from' tally.
I'm still claiming that kill. There's plenty of evidence to support it.
I get two credits for this...
First we gotta verify that Tad Hurst never got gunned down for being mistaken for me. I know I caught some flak for being mistaken for him.
OK kids...
Let's take a little closer look at this:
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Peter Birren - 2011/08/29
This event occurred on one (1) of my 65 aerotow launches. The over-the-top lockout happened because of the short towline; had the line been longer, it would've been a non-issue. Using a short like for aerotow is SOP which is one of the reasons I prefer the long static tow line; there's lots more room for error.
1. Peter's going up like a rocket with the bar well past his knees. What happens if his 0.8 G weak link - which for Peter is about 220 pounds towline - blows or...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
...his tug driver makes a good decision in the interest of his safety before he's ridden it out long enough to get to safe recovery altitude?
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Good thing for Peter he wasn't towing at Ridgely behind one of their crew of highly experienced total fu**ing morons, wasn't it?
2. If you listen to some of these highly experienced totally fu**ing moronic pansy assed tug drivers you soon understand that they're all terrified of being killed instantly if a solo glider uses the same weak link that they tow all the time on tandem gliders.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins...
So they make everyone fly Davis/Rooney links which blow six times in a row and prevent everyone from getting to workable altitudes on good days.
Peter's weak link - if his numbers are right - is slightly lighter than a Davis/Rooney link and yet it (fortunately for his a**) DOES NOTHING to limit his over-the-top lockout until he's nearly 200 feet above the tug on what he describes as a dangerously short - probably 250 foot - towline.
That's about the worst thing you can do to the tug - try to nose him in on takeoff.
And yet we don't hear that the tug got nosed in.
And we don't hear that - even with a near 200 foot altitude discrepancy, the towline pulling up at about a fifty degree angle - the tug was concerned enough to dump him. Sounds like the tug lifted off normally and did just fine.
(So Peter... Did you give your tug driver a heart-felt thank you for not making a good decision in the interest of your (and his) safety?)
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