TadEareckson wrote:So were you able to bunk him with any of Tad's lunacy? Maybe just the part about using weak links proportional to flying weight and strong enough to hold longer than half a dozen seconds into a normal smooth Santa Cruz Flats dolly launch?
The most ironic thing to me about Rooney's 'debunking Tad's lunacy' quote is that he subsequently stated (about me) 'We're not in disagreement. In fact, you're reiterating all kinds of stuff that I try to get across to people all the time' when pretty much everything I said was stuff I learned from you. He later told me (in private) that he thinks we agree more than disagree.
Anyway, Joe and I didn't talk much about towing since no one tows over there (although he did say they use to scooter tow before they had the training hill they have now).
Some of the topics we discussed did touch on some of the other things you and I have discussed (approaches, full flare landings, flying from the base tube vs. downtubes), but he was either already in agreement with you or I didn't agree with you enough to 'bunk your lunacy'. I didn't broach the FTHI subject, but in retrospect I wish I would have.
He later told me (in private) that he thinks we agree more than disagree.
There's tons of stuff on which I and God's Special Little Messenger overlap.
I say Bailey Releases become inoperable under light load and aren't designed to be gripped by a human hand and...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26
Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.
...so does Jim.
But my strategy is to use a release that works under load and has a safe, easy grip and Jim's is to use a light weak link on the other shoulder, learn the best way to pry a bent pin release open in an emergency, and carry a hook knife in case the four foot long secondary / one point bridle wraps at the eye splice or tow ring.
I say that if you use cheap, thin, excessively long, poorly constructed bridles you're gonna get a lot of potentially deadly wraps at the worst possible time and...
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...Jim totally confirms this.
But my approach is to optimize bridle design, install a thimble in the bottom end of the one point bridle, optimize secondary weak links to blow during wraps, and incorporate a secondary emergency release which allows the pilot to blow tow instantly with both hands on the basetube.
And Jim's approach is to hope he doesn't get into a low level lockout but to use 130 pound Greenspot...
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your a** it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
...so he can just pitch out abruptly and overload that puppy.
...always plan on having your problems way up high.
I want to see gliders towing at one and a half Gs and...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26
Take this weaklink nonsense. What do I "advocate"? I don't advocate shitt... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line. It is industry standard. It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in REALITY... but does it work in THEORY?" Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
...so does Jim - but just for little adult chicks and medium sized young adolescents flying at the bottom end of Falcon 3 145s (presumably 'cause people that light don't hit as hard when the weak link holds all the way to the end of the lockout at surface level - and the kids heal a whole lot faster and better).
I think inadvertant losses of normal tow tension down low are dangerous and...
Jim Rooney - 2005/09/22
Ok, as long as we're digging this deeply into it....
It is not merely a matter of inconvenience. I was there, and in my oppinion Steve came rather close to breaking his legs. I was getting ready to dial 911.
Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation. There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow. Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.
Yes, your tow system failed... it didn't fail to release, it failed to work. Did it fail more safely than a lockout? Yes. But don't tell me that thing worked. You found an unforseen error. That's the problem... unforseen. You don't know what else is waiting for you. Oh, let me rephrase that more accurately, Steve found an unforseen error for you.
...so does Jim - but only...
Steve Kinsley - 2005/09/21
If I had known Tad was going to make one I would have just waited for his. Although once into it I kinda got hooked on the project. The only real problems in the process were unintended releases but it never really put me in a bad position. I might make an exception for last weekend (2005/09/18) when I (mis) used Tad's for the first time and ended up dancing on the cart.
...when someone misuses (misconfigures, fails to preflight, attempts to salvage the tow instead of aborting when he discovers he's got a BIG problem) one of Tad's Four-String releases and NEVER because of the industry standard 130 pound "greenspun" (breaking strength: "I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while." - Bart Weghorst, Industry Spokesman)...
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
...or the "relatively heavy" one (last changed a year and a half ago and never inspected) at the tug.
Davis Straub - 2006/06/05
Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground. It felt to me that I was in for a skidder. Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?) and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in. I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
I say that your precious hang check is more likely to get into shock trauma than up to cloudbase and...
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about 50 meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about 15 meters to the ground.
Jim Rooney - 2006/09/19
The first thing you learn, if you live, is that your precious hang check isn't going to save you.
...so does Jim.
But my approach to staying with the glider and off the front page is to verify that I'm hooked in JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH whereas Jim's is...
Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24
There isn't one sure-fire answer. If there was, we'd all be doing it already.
...to flatly dismiss that strategy ('cause if it were any good more than a tenth of a percent of glider divers would be using it) and...
Jim Rooney - 2006/09/19
Your friend might save you, but even a religious obscession with hang checks won't.
...hope that somebody who likes you (or at least likes your passenger) will notice that your suspension is REALLY slack before you run off the ramp. And that might be a pretty good strategy for Jim - he's got WAY more friends, Followers, and Harmonizers than I ever will. So I'll probably just stick with lift and tug 'cause there's a real good chance that one of his friends, Followers, or Harmonizers will attempt to distract me and disconnect my carabiner at the back of the ramp.
I didn't broach the FTHI subject, but in retrospect I wish I would have.
So how much foot launching has Zack been doing lately and what strategy has he been using to keep from becoming a viral YouTube video and the nucleus of yet another idiot hang check / Aussie Method debate?
So how much foot launching has Zack been doing lately and what strategy has he been using to keep from becoming a viral YouTube video and the nucleus of yet another idiot hang check / Aussie Method debate?
Did a lot in Cali but haven't done much this year outside that. I've messed with my harness and got to the point where I can feel something when I lift but it's not very reassuring. I haven't actually done it just prior to launching as I fear it will mess up my glider's balance and pitch, the establishment of which is a prerequisite for launching, but I can't say it actually will until I try it...
I have, however, done a pretty good job of changing my mindset to always be afraid of being unhooked. When I was in Cali I asked my nose guy if I was hooked in just prior to launching, unless I had done a hang check within 10 seconds or so, in which case it seemed silly. If I was launching without assistance I'd be especially careful about verifying my connection just prior to launching (probably holding the nose wires and turning around and checking before picking the glider up). But I don't know if these measures will be enough...
I've messed with my harness and got to the point where I can feel something when I lift but it's not very reassuring.
If you feel SOMETHING - anywhere - that's a huge chunk of the game. THE big killer is the carabiner dangling behind the knees and you'll know you've taken that out of the equation. And if that something is just one leg loop you're just about home free.
I haven't actually done it just prior to launching as I fear it will mess up my glider's balance and pitch...
Wanna see a launching glider with majorly messed up balance and pitch?
...the establishment of which is a prerequisite for launching...
Not the most important one.
...but I can't say it actually will until I try it...
1. Try it in the setup area and/or LZ - repeatedly.
2. Rob Kells and I did it our entire flying careers and experienced no problems.
3. I've NEVER ONCE heard of anyone so much as scratched as a consequence of tightening his suspension two seconds before launch.
4. I've personally known people who've been embarrassed, beat up, severely injured, and killed as a consequence of being unable to tighten their suspension two seconds AFTER launch.
I have, however, done a pretty good job of changing my mindset to always be afraid of being unhooked.
That's one bit of rewiring I never had to do. I was scared shitless when I read my first batch of fatality reports when I started in 1980. And I stayed that way.
When I was in Cali I asked my nose guy if I was hooked in just prior to launching, unless I had done a hang check within 10 seconds or so, in which case it seemed silly.
1. I'm easily physically able to lift and tug - and thus cut out the middleman.
2. I've never felt silly reassuring myself when more than a couple of seconds have lapsed.
3. I might feel silly asking someone else for verification every five seconds - but, once you're in position on the ramp, how many times do you typically get set to launch and hafta hit the pause button?
4. If you're using a hang check at the back of the ramp ten seconds ago as your confirmation that you're hooked in, you're launching in violation of the conditions of your rating - as per the intent of the amendment stated in the 1981/05 George Whitehill article (Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough).
5. If I were one of your wire guys my heart would skip a beat if you DIDN'T check yourself or call for verification.
6. In my perfect world the lift and tug challenged person would challenge a designated wire guy with "Unhooked.", await a response of "Hooked.", and launch within two seconds or repeat after a hold. And if the pilot failed to do that the designated wire guy - and all other pilot witnesses - would immediately push a preset on the cell phone, rat the pilot out, and cost him a rating suspension.
7. Nobody seems to find it silly for calls on wire pressure, streamer activity, and traffic to be made within two seconds of launch - for as many times as it takes.
If I was launching without assistance...
I'd argue - and can present some pretty good evidence to support a hypothesis - that you're likely in a lot more danger with assistance than without. The more cooks around the more people tend to drop their guards and assume that things have been taken care of. On his way to the Whitwell ramp and launch crew Bill Priday had to practically fight his way through a mob of cooks asking if he'd had a hang check.
"Have you had a hang check?"
WHO THE PHUCK CARES!!!
"Oh good! He answered 'yes' so now everybody can relax and go back to stuffing battens - confident that he'll be OK."
The assumption has gotta be that the pilot is NOT hooked in right up to the point the first critical step is taken and it's too late to do anything about it.
...(probably holding the nose wires and turning around and checking before picking the glider up).
1. You don't need to turn around - you've already preflighted the connection. You just need to feel resistance. The easier the action the better.
2. Better to do SOMETHING - ANYTHING - *AFTER* picking the glider up. The less delay between the verification and launch the better.
3. Stay scared. Nobody who was scared he wasn't hooked in two seconds before launch has ever launched unhooked.
But I don't know if these measures will be enough...
The good news... You're worried about the issue. That helps with the fear thing.
The bad news... You're worried about the issue. The fear should all be about the thought of dangling from your basetube - not about the vulnerabilities of your procedures to keep yourself from dangling from the basetube.
I hope - and feel confident - that you CAN mess with your harness and got to the point where you can feel something when you lift that IS very reassuring. That's THE ticket to this issue.
Tad--I've said it in the past--I really admire anyone that seeks to improve safety in towing...
But not so much for anyone who ACTUALLY improves the safety in towing.
...(becuase it is necessary)-
OH. It IS necessary? So then who's bending over backwards to make sure that improvement never takes us back up to where we were in the summer of 1991?
-but I really don't have the slightest idea what the frig you are talking about!
Big surprise.
You toss around load limiting figures without any real asociation to breaking strengths and desired load limitations.
Actually, all my numbers are well within existing USHGA limits: half a G below two, which is the top, and one and a half above zero, which is the bottom.
Just because a weaklink on liftoff breaks doesn't mean it has failed to do what it's supposed to do.
What's it supposed to do, Marc?
(Hint:
Tost Flugzeuggeratebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.)
If you go out and get slammed in turbulence on lift-off and the weaklink breaks--the failure is not in the weaklink--but in the pilot's judgement for going at that time in those conditions and/or not responding quickly enough to unload the pressures. Them's the breaks, so to speak.
2. In aerotowing don't you need TWO pilots with crappy judgment to launch into plane slamming turbulence and/or not respond quickly enough to unload the pressures? And aren't ALL tug drivers paragons of professionalism, responsibility, judgment, and skill?
3. How often do you think this scenario is playing out below two hundred feet?
4. So that's the function of the weak link? To blow you off tow when you - and your tug driver - are stupid enough to lift off into plane slamming turbulence and/or not respond quickly enough to unload the pressures?
5. What are you envisioning happens to the glider AFTER the weak link blows you off tow when you - and your tug driver - are stupid enough to lift off into plane slamming turbulence and/or not respond quickly enough to unload the pressures?
The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma.
You have a predilication for using scare tactics and pure speculation in some of your accident interpretations.
Sure Marc, if you say so.
I certainly wouldn't want to scare anybody into thinking that towing is dangerous and...
Tad--I've said it in the past--I really admire anyone that seeks to improve safety in towing (becuase it is necessary)...
...its safety needs improving. I sincerely DO want the vast majority of people in this sport to feel safe, secure, and total complacent about the way they're doing things.
And I certainly wouldn't want to SPECULATE that...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...the reason that the gate on Mike Haas's Wallaby-style tow release was found closed was because the lever on Mike Haas's Wallaby-style tow release was velcroed to the downtube and...
British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04
On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
...he couldn't get to it when he needed to.
You seem to expect that people to accept your equipment and ideas based on your convictions before they're proven.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
No, Marc, I no longer expect ANYTHING from the total fu**ing morons who constitute 99.9 percent of the participants in this idiot fu**ing sport.
Please get in touch with Peter Birren and get some info on development and implementation of safety systems.
Ah, yes!
Manned Kiting The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding Daniel F. Poynter 1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shitt happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Just the person I need to show me the light and guide me out of the darkness!
When you have a safe system based on meaningful quantitative test results--then present it in a positive way.
OK.
I'm positive inaccessible releases, bent pins, and half G weak links are dangerous and my stuff is better - you fu**ing moron.
That work?
I promise I'll be the first to adapt when and if it passes muster.
And by passing "MUSTER" Marc, of course, means gets the nod from Rooney, Davis, and the rest of the Flight Park Mafia. And that will NEVER happen and that's the ONLY reason that...
...(becuase it is necessary)...
...we've been in hell and stuck in neutral for the past twenty years with no hint of any advancement on the horizon.
Surprising, isn't it, that I've heard from a couple of instructors (both with more credibility in their little fingers than you have in your self-inflated ego)...
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31
Jim (Rooney), as I am starting to play with Elektra Tow (ET) at Quest Air (the battery powered "scooter" tow system you and Adam got me jazzed up about up at Highland) I've watched this thread closely. We all can learn.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
THAT'S why I don't give a rat's a** about how much credibility someone has in this sport. Hang gliding is overwhelmingly populated and controlled by total SH*THEADS and thus the ONLY way anyone's ever gonna attain a high level of credibility...
And, just out of curiosity, exactly what is it that these gurus of hang gliding have figured out that the rest of us are too stupid to pick up? I've been studying this sport and what goes on in it for over thirty years and I have yet to find anything terribly significant or useful that someone with an IQ of fifty couldn't pick up in a minute or two.
Last year my high flights didn't go that well, I remember that I was doing a winch tow tandem with Jack Walters in Hearne, Texas. Our first flight on a Falcon 2 Tandem, the glider started to pop back and forth, I was about to ask Jack what the hell is going on? Before I asked the weak-link broke, I pulled in as the glider's nosed went down towards the Earth, it kept flying though. I told Jack, I am going to put it in the grass, this time, I made a left turn to the grassy area, at 50 ft. the left wing just dropped, I thought that was the end of time for us, I yelled at Jack, "take over as I moved my hands from the control bar, Jack pulled it in picked up speed and got it flying again and landed right after that.
So you got into a bit of oscillation - but not so bad that either you or your instructor were thinking about going for the release, and you were still going UP.
Then the weak link blew and you had to react to keep the glider from stalling (any worse than it did), started going down pretty fast, and had to make an emergency landing.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
Is that what the weak link is for and is that what it did?
Free wrote:Thought we would have heard from Peter by now..
I could have been wrong about the reason Peter Birren might have banned Warren Schirtzinger. It could have been that Warren made Peter Birren's marketing ideas of the time look bad in comparison.
I had almost forgotten that Peter Birren was involved as bag-man in some kind of an internet marketing scheme with Dennis Cavagnaro, back in the day. They wanted $15,000 of the member's money to start..
Neither Dennis or Peter wanted to elaborate on what product was actually being purchased at the time. No real transparency/accountability was offered. The internet scheme was a clumsy idea that seemed more likely to hinder prospective pilots from finding contact information on learning to fly. Why be forced to go through middle men that had nothing to sell or provide?
I'm no programmer but really,... how hard is it to have web links that lead to information to a monopoly sport association? It's not like there are options. Where can a web search of hang gliding lead but to the USHPA borg? It's a monopoly!
We've already paid, in many ways, for the CIA/Google search engine*. Why not just use it?
To the borg's credit, they cut out these middle-men and went with their own program. Cavagnaro is REALLY bitter about this and I imagine Peter is too. Maybe we'll hear from them.
*A better search engine where you are not being tracked and traced: http://startpage.com/
Sorry for not getting to this sooner, Free.
I didn't have much to do with the $15K thing. Basically, IIRC, it was actually a quote for Jack and Dennis to set up Google Adwords and a whole lot of other web work for attracting new pilots. It didn't go anywhere except that USHPA stole all the ideas and did something similar on their own, so Jack built HG.org. The real kicker is B_rad K_ushner wanting $14K for the domain name hang_gliding.com (underscores added to stymie searches). I'm not bitter about it as it all came along just after the motor issue which, I don't mind saying, I had a big part in putting the kaibosh on, along with Jack, Dennis, Roy and several other sharp guys in the Coalition for Common Sense in 2005 (had to look it up 'cuz it was so long ago). I attended 3 BOD meetings in a row to help manage the deal/vote.
Free wrote:Good job of cooling yourself down from your earlier posts, Peter. Most forums would have kicked you off with good reason. This latest post is barely snarkey but you do get your jibes in.
Birren wrote: "TadErcksn@aol.com" is still a member of the Towing List. I did bounce Warren and one other guy but not you. Guess it must be easy to think you're ridiculing someone else when you do it to yourself so easily.
(snip)
You not only banned me but you also banned Warren Schirtzinger, volunteer chairman of the USHGA marketing committee for no cause other than his name was Warren. I get two credits for this and Tad has to subtract one.
Is Warren Schirtzinger, the "other guy" you refer to above or is there another?
(snip)
Do you share any guilt for causing him to say piss off to borg for the thanks he got for lending his valuable time and expertise to the corporation, at no charge?
I never saw the apology from you to Warren.
(snip)
Are ya happy pal?
Nope, I met Schirtzinger once at a BOD meeting and had a little small talk with him, that's it. From what I heard, some committee members didn't like his "attitude" or suggestions... he got the message real quick like and left. Others may have a variation on this story that could be more to the facts, but I wasn't privy to anything more that that small chit-chat.
A lot of things make me happy. Dealing with Jayne and the BOD as I did is not one of them though I did have a good time with the USHPA logo gig.
Home
