[Bob Kuczewski]

Tad,

Otto Lilienthal died in a glider accident in 1896. Maybe you should mention that as well?

If you have a specific comment to make about Al's flight, then that would be helpful to him and to this forum. But if you just want to take a jab at hang gliding because you've got a grudge against someone, then please open a new topic somewhere else.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

[TadEareckson]

Al,

Not really sure who or what you're talking about so lemme cover all the bases.

Neither John nor Eric were pioneers in hang gliding and neither invented new ways of killing themselves in the sport.

It's fine that neither of them has been forgotten, it's totally despicable that they died doing stupid needless reruns of other stupid needless deaths and that - in the big picture - NOTHING was or is being learned from them.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Eric was killed on 1990/07/05 by a release system configured to blow him off tow when his nose went up. From 1981 through then and to this present day devices which result in rope breaks - including idiot light weak links and Peter Birren's idiot Pitch and Lockout Limiter - are being hyped as SAFETY equipment by the total a**holes who control this sport.

If you buy the assessments of the eyewitnesses - which I do - John was killed because he was signed off to fly a hang glider without being able to fly a hang glider. One of the main reasons he couldn't fly a hang glider was that he wasn't taught to fly prone on an aircraft designed - and only certified - to be flown prone.

Most hang gliding people have extremely limited cranial capacities and are able to store extremely limited parcels of information. That being the case I would advise your local pilots to clear the space of memories of Eric and/or John to open it up for understandings of how and why they died.

Bob,

Otto Lilienthal died in a glider accident in 1896. Maybe you should mention that as well?

OK.

Otto, Eric, and John were killed as consequences of low level stalls.

Otto's was the least severe of the three. While the other two were killed instantly, he lived until the next day and said, "Small sacrifices must be made!"

He was wrong. He had already developed a device - a "prellbugel" - which, like our control frame, takes a lot of the impact so the pilot doesn't have to. It had saved his life before and, the consensus seems to be, would have again - if he had been using it.

Eric's stall was the MOST severe of the three. He was on tow, plowed into a dust devil right after launch, and was going UP like a ROCKET until his idiot Pitch and Lockout Limiter kicked in. (Read engine failure.) Then he IMMEDIATELY went DOWN like a BRICK. Duh.

John's stall occured because he didn't know how to fly. The reason he didn't know how to fly was because he wasn't TAUGHT how to fly. His training was, instead, geared to teaching him how to land on his feet by executing a radical STALL a couple of feet off the runway. That's not a stunt he really needed to learn. That's not a stunt the vast majority of hang glider pilots really need to learn.

So, to summarize...

Stalls kill people. They undoubtedly kill more people in hang gliding that anything else by a very wide margin. Therefore we should avoid stalling our gliders.

I don't know why Otto stalled but if we had stuffed a Wills Wing Raven and harness into the Wayback Machine and set it for 1896/08/09 08:00 Berlin time he almost certainly wouldn't have. He'd have been WAY less likely to stall to begin with, WAY more likely to recover if he had, and better protected in the crash if he made it that far.

Eric we send a three-string release with the bridle and lanyard halves anchored at his hips and a six hundred pound weaklink.

John we take to the dunes and teach him how to launch standing up with his hands on the downtubes and fly, turn, and land lying down with his hands on the basetube.

If you have a specific comment to make about Al's flight, then that would be helpful to him and to this forum.

1. And, of course, a reminder that less than sixteen months ago a student of the instructor he's using died at the site he's flying 'cause his instruction sucked and he was signed off to go into water way over his head would NOT be helpful to Al and this forum.

2. And, of course, YOU get to decide on behalf of Al and this forum what is and isn't helpful.

But if you just want to take a jab at hang gliding...

I don't wanna take a jab at hang gliding. I LOVE hang gliding. I've made it a lot better for the few people who've taken the time and made the effort to listen. I wanna take jabs at flying around with your hands on the downtubes and/or stalling back into the slope or runway. None of those activities is hang gliding and none does much to enhance or promote it.

...because you've got a grudge against someone...

Maybe you could write some SOPs defining what a grudge is and when US Hawks members are allowed to make critical statements about dangerous and incompetent practices.

Why do we need another organization?

The need for choice on the national level has been clear for some time. The HGAA, for example, was originally formed to be more of a grass roots organization than USHPA. However, it was quickly overtaken by those who again concentrated power and shunned opposing viewpoints. So the US Hawks was formed to provide yet another alternative.

What will keep the US Hawks from becoming another USHPA or HGAA?

You will ... hopefully. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Everyone has to do their part once in a while. If you see something that's not being done correctly, then it's your duty to speak out. One big difference between the US Hawks and other organizations is that the US Hawks really does honor the free speech of its members.

Then we REALLY need to modify the mission statements for consistency sake.

...then please open a new topic somewhere else.

On the SouthWest Texas forum perhaps.

The topic is "AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11". My comments are all EXTREMELY RELEVANT to "AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11". There were some major problems with "AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11". My comments stay here where people are quite welcome to read or not read them - unless you wanna start using a Davis, Jack, or Tim Herr Button.

[Bob Kuczewski]

...then please open a new topic somewhere else.

On the SouthWest Texas forum perhaps.

No, you can't post on the SouthWest Texas forum because Sam tends to be a more practical man than I am. For better or worse, I tend to be a bit more idealistic, and that's why you've been free to run your mouth (actually, your keyboard) on every topic to the point of domination.

If Sam's "Tad Free Zone" ends up generating more productive discussions, then we'll know who was right. Personally, ... I'm rooting for Sam!!   

[TadEareckson]

No, you can't post on the SouthWest Texas forum because Sam tends to be a more practical man than I am.

Yep. Rules, principles, protections for minority viewpoints are a real bitch when you really want things to go your way. Stalin sure knew how to deal with crap like that.

...and that's why you've been free to run your mouth (actually, your keyboard) on every topic to the point of domination.

You give me too much credit. In a national organization forum which only has nineteen participants who've posted into double digits and with people walking out of conversations when the questions get too embarrassing it's a piece of cake.

If Sam's "Tad Free Zone" ends up generating more productive discussions...

I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that they WILL!!! I'm just a little concerned about what will be produced and how much it will raise the dissolved nitrogen and phosphorus levels in the water supply.

...then we'll know who was right.

Sure we will. Popular opinion is always a great way to separate fact from fiction - especially in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and hang gliding.

But if you go for quality over quantity and attention spans over fifteen seconds or so...

deltaman - 2011/09/05

Thanks Tad !

I leave flatlands for the alps..
I'd like to thank you sincerly Tad to help me to introduce 2 point AT in France in a safely manner and understand better lot of important stuffs about AT (release, wl, asymmetrical tension..). I try to relay your work here.
Thanks Zack too for having offered you a place to talk about, and for us to ask and read.
Regards Guys

deltaman - 2011/10/14

Tad,
you will laugh.. some voices ask to impose your barrel release for the French Championship 2012 in the flats near Poitiers. And we will invite the Brits in a FAI cat2 event..
Not really sure it will happend but stay tuned..

...it may be possible to make ACTUAL positive changes.

Personally, ... I'm rooting for Sam!!

Big surprise. You'll be needing to get fully up to speed on your Rooney Tunes harmonization pretty soon - not that that will be much of a leap.

[terryJm]

Good flying Al, so sad to hear of you selling your glider and quitting the sport, I'm sure it wasn't my telling you that next year you would look back on that day with pride and excitement as you approach the ramp eagerly anticipating another soaring adventure! Those of us who prefer to fly, will always wonder about the key board jocks, who frighten away new flyers with skitzoid horror stories of murder, and at the hands of friends who only wish to share the incomparable thrill of free flight. I'm reminded of Johnathan Livingston Seagull, striving against the ever present obstructionists. Thanks to Sam for limiting Our forum to FLYERS. See you soon Bob

[TadEareckson]

Oh good. Just when I was beginning to find Peter a bit tiresome, a fresh halfwit with a broken spellchecker partially emerges from the primordial ooze.

Those of us who prefer to fly, will always wonder about the key board jocks...

I actually prefer to fly too - and did so as a full time instructor, mentor, competitor, site pioneer, club officer, and equipment developer for the better part of three decades. Sometimes circumstances change so people can't always do what they'd prefer to. But those circumstances don't necessarily mean that they get a fraction as stupid as the current flock with whom they're dealing.

...who frighten away new flyers...

I don't think Al really needed ME to frighten him.

2010/01/18 - Al drove his friend Martin Apopot to the hospital with a broken back after the crack tow team at Hearne launched him unhooked.

2010/06/26 - John Seward, the student of the instructor who was throwing Al off the Packsaddle launch, slammed back into the Packsaddle launch and the rescuers got to him just in time to hear his last gasp.

2010/10/13 - Lemmy Lopez, a student of the tow instructor who had almost pulled Al into the asphalt at 25 miles per hour not long before, locked out and died.

2010/11/06 - Al got to watch a really cool video of the glider of B Asher, another area "pilot", discharge him and fly away without him because he doesn't believe in hook-in checks EITHER.

2011/04/17 - Danny Jones - who had just been signed off on a Four by another of Al's instructors - blew a launch at Packsaddle, reduced his helmet to confetti, and went away with a head full of brains that took several months to get back into something resembling working condition.

2011/06/25 - Al accompanies Martin to Leakey for yet another surface towing adventure. A mentally defective winch operator puts Martin up on a defective winch with a defective weak link and Martin ends up doing a wingover thirty feet over a house off the side of the runway wondering if he's still gonna be in one piece at the end of the flight.

And then we have this from Al in the first post in this thread which I can't believe you have the ability to read or comprehend so I really don't know what good it will do to repeat it but what the hell:

The time When I didn't know how to fly a glider. and got up to altitude and didn't know what I was doing I had an idea but that wasn't going to do the trick, I flew the HG, but didn't know how to land a hang glider or I forgot about landing and busted my left leg.

And lemme tell ya something about first mountain flights that you don't seem to be able to get. They're actually NOT supposed to be exercises in marginally controlled terror. The instructor is supposed to get the student prepped well enough in advance that he's champing at the bit to get to the ramp and mildly to moderately irritated with the instructor for holding him back that long. And the flight itself is actually supposed to be FUN.

...with skitzoid horror stories of murder, and at the hands of friends who only wish to share the incomparable thrill of free flight.

1. That part of the country is a killing machine fueled by incompetence and corruption. I wouldn't recommend anybody about whom I gave half a rat's a** going anywhere near it (at least until they find out what's wrong with the water and fix the problem) with anything less than a real solid Hang Three. And I don't mean the kind you buy - I mean the kind for which you actually qualify.

2. These close calls, injuries, and deaths that y'all are racking up are not figments of my fevered imagination...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfiNy9fae8

...asshole. They're REAL and they have REAL impacts on REAL people in addition to the ones who slam in.

3. People who you think are your friends in this sport aren't always your friends and people who you think are your enemies aren't always your enemies. Assumed friends can be murderers and assumed enemies can be saviors.

4. There's no such thing as free flight - especially for us hominids. We need to earn the privilege of sharing air with Redtails and understand that we'll always be operating under very strict rules with really brutal punishments for sometimes very slight infractions. You can ask Zack about that if you don't wanna hear it from me. If that doesn't work for you John Sieber shouldn't be too tough to track down.

[Nobody]

Thanks to Sam for limiting Our forum to FLYERS.

Idiot.

[TadEareckson]

Idiot? Really? I was going with halfwit, but that may well be a more accurate characterization.

OK. Idiot it is then.

See, Bob? I actually AM capable of admitting being wrong on some of my positions and getting along with people with whom I may have had differences of opinion.

[TadEareckson]

One more point, Terry...

Thanks to Sam for limiting Our forum to FLYERS.

That is EXACTLY what Sam did. And in doing so excluded people who are actual PILOTS - and pretty much eliminated any possibility or hope of anybody in Your forum ever becoming an actual PILOT.

[Bill Cummings]

“Tad,
-----a fresh halfwit with a broken spellchecker partially emerges from the primordial ooze.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OonDPGwAyfQ

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