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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby miguel » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:33 pm

TadEareckson wrote:1. Dildeaux is plural. (Right, Deltaman?)


Sorry, singing Fere Jaques in first grade is the extent of my french

2. This is hang gliding. If you're not being thought of as a dildeau by 99 percent of the participants you're doing something SERIOUSLY wrong.


Nope when you are thought of as a dildeau, you are simply a dildeau. Nothing noble about that.

3. No matter what you do in hang gliding you're gonna be thought of as a dildeau by a LOT of people.


Nope, If you give someone basic respect. Most all will return it.

4. The ONLY people to whom I'm gonna be able to get messages through don't give a rat's a** about the issue of me being a dildeau anyway so the effort to change would be a massive - as well as futile - waste of my time.


Getting your message to 4-5 people is going to change a lot. Isn't it? :srofl:

Going to someone's house and peeing on the sofa :shock: is not going to endear them to you no matter how righteous your cause.
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:45 pm

miguel wrote:Going to someone's house and peeing on the sofa :shock: is not going to endear them to you no matter how righteous your cause.

:srofl:

By the way, Rick just made a suggestion about Special Observers in a new topic. It got me to thinking about issuing US Hawks ratings through existing channels. Basically, any instructor who can issue a USHxA rating could issue a US Hawks rating. Similarly, we could start issuing US Hawks ratings based on the existence of currently valid USHxA ratings. They wouldn't be worth much right now because there aren't any sites that would honor those ratings. But they could start getting people thinking out of the box with regard to who can issue ratings. I'd welcome any thoughts on that topic.

Thanks.

Carry on.
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby Rick Masters » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:47 pm

Al, there's a lot of noise on this thread but if I can just cut through it, I'd like to provide my observations to your excellently detailed account.

A lot of focus is put on hooking in. Too many pilots have died for no good reason. It was never a problem for me. Before lifting the glider, I would lay down and check my distance from the control bar. I always did this. It was part of my unalterable routine. It just took a moment and then I would shoulder the glider. I would stand and allow the wind to lift the wing. I would stand and fly the wing with gentle tension on my hang strap. Then I would identify the neutral lift attitude where the wing weighed nothing - and hold it.

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

Now I would look downslope. I would verify that the bushes or trees below were waving slightly. If they were, I knew that I would encounter lift during and at the end of my run.

Now I would look to one side to see how wide the lift band was AND to see if there was approaching traffic. Then I would look to the other side. If bushes and trees or flags were moving about the same far to either side, I could be assured that I was in uniform ridgelift or in the center of a large thermal updraft. In the event of a large thermal updraft, there is no time to delay because it will not last and you must launch into the first half as it approaches launch.

Now you look to your wireman. His fingers should be "O's" around your nose wires and not touching them. Now you have met all conditions. Timing is of the essence. You yell "Clear!", the wire man dives to the side and you run, holding a neutral angle of attack. As you accelerate, the wing will lift you off the ground. Do not push out unless necessary. KEEP RUNNING IN THE AIR.

Very quickly now, you will obtain optimum control speed. Fly straight away from launch, prone out but DO NOT allow yourself to concentrate on putting your feet somewhere or pulling a zipper. That does not matter at this time. Concentrate only on flying and the VERY IMPORTANT next step of working the compression or lift zone at launch.

Now you are airborne. You are flying. You DO NOT think about landing. You IMMEDIATELY think about gaining altitude. You must banish all thoughts about landing from your mind and think about soaring.

Do not 360. Follow the lift band back toward the hill at a gentle angle and set yourself up to turn away from the hill in an "S" turn. Fly toward the hill at a moderate speed where your control feels excellent, then when you turn away from the hill, exchange speed for altitude by pushing out. In my day, this was known as the "Chandelle Curve." When you are high enough to recover from turbulence-induced sink, you can begin to 360 in lift. You will want to slow down more for this - but always be fast enough to be able to pull in the bar, dive and turn away from the hill with good control authority. This is what will keep you alive when you encounter rough air - which you will.

Lift often fails, and when it does you will ALWAYS KNOW THE ALTITUDE AND SINK RATE that you will need to reach a safe landing area. Your fellow pilots will know this. Ask them. But understand this very important point because it can greatly accelerate your advancement in the sport: Don't think about landing until your altitude and/or sink rate notify you that it's time for that. And although you must properly set up your approach, DO NOT COMMIT TO LANDING until there is no alternative left. Work minimum sink all the way to the landing area. If you find lift, use it. Climb out. Go back to the mountain. You came to fly. Fly.
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Thanks for bringing us back on topic Rick ... and for the good advice.

The only thing I would add is that speed is control, and you need control when you're near the ground (landing or launching). So I think it's important to be on the fast side of trim when launching.

When you said "holding a neutral angle of attack" it's important to explain how that "feels" in terms of bar angle and pressure to a new pilot running down the hill.

I think it would be helpful if you could elaborate on that. Thanks!!
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby DarthVader » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:22 pm

Right. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY a glider can exert a force to pull you forward or push you backwards or sideways if you've got your arms wrapped around the downtubes and have it clamped down on your shoulders.


I did feel the ramp sucking me in

I know I was hooked in because at the foot of the ramp I hooked myself in and closed the gate myself, drooped and did a hang check and got up and checked the carabiner again, then I stepped forward to feel the pull... I lifted the glider way up to feel the tug again, so I know that I was hooked in.... all I had to do next was put a combination lock on it to seal it.

However.... John seaward stated to Dan the man that he felt that he was being sucked down the ramp.
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby DarthVader » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:13 pm

Rick Masters, thanks for the advice I will keep that in mind...

My main problem that I took note of was controlling the glider in higher winds there was a lot of trash air in the area which made it harder to hold the HG level in higher winds... So, I had to wait for a good cycle to blow into the launch area and catch it before more trash air would blow in.... I remember that I had to bury my shoulders into the control frame to have a better hold of the HG... :o
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby Bill Cummings » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:54 am

DarthVader wrote:
Right. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY a glider can exert a force to pull you forward or push you backwards or sideways if you've got your arms wrapped around the downtubes and have it clamped down on your shoulders.


I did feel the ramp sucking me in

I know I was hooked in because at the foot of the ramp I hooked myself in and closed the gate myself, drooped and did a hang check and got up and checked the carabiner again, then I stepped forward to feel the pull... I lifted the glider way up to feel the tug again, so I know that I was hooked in.... all I had to do next was put a combination lock on it to seal it.

However.... John seaward stated to Dan the man that he felt that he was being sucked down the ramp.


Al, there is a possible way that the glider can exert a force to pull you forward.
The airfoil shape of your wing (hang glider) creates a lower pressure area above your wing. It lifts up. If you are on a cliff and have the nose of your hang glider down then the lifting force will pull you foreword too. ( I call that ramp suck!) I don’t know the source or your quote but I totally disagree with that statement.
If your nose is down on a windy steep hill it will pull you forward. I don’t care how knowledgeable the person you quoted is that made the incorrect statement. He/she is incorrect!
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby DarthVader » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:27 am

Yeah, Bill... I did feel the Ramp sucking me in... Like I said, it was a windy day and the nose of the glider had to be down when launching it, or it may have poped the nose and stalled, and down I would had gone into the shap rocks below..... those rocks are just waiting for someone to make a mistake and make Carne Picada (Ground meet) out of someone... The nose has to be down more on a windy day when committing the launch, I agree to that :wtf:
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:41 am

Hi Al,

Here's a sketch of what's happening with "ramp suck". The glider generates forces based on the relative wind that it feels. In normal flight (top diagram), the glider is designed to generate a force which opposes gravity (thereby holding you up).

When you're launching in most conditions (bottom diagram) the wind is coming up the ramp, so you need to keep the glider pointed down the ramp to keep it from being stalled (very bad on launch). By rotating the glider down into the same angle of attack (relative to the wind), the lift vector rotates with it. So pointing the glider down causes the lift vector to rotate forward which is actually pulling you forward. So it is very real!!

ramp_suck_2011_10_20a.png
ramp_suck_2011_10_20a.png (47.47 KiB) Viewed 4967 times
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Re: AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Postby TadEareckson » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:09 pm

Bill,

He/She here. (So much for doctor/patient confidentiality.)

If you click back to the previous page you'll note that:

Right. There's NO POSSIBLE WAY a glider can exert a force to pull you forward or push you backwards or sideways if you've got your arms wrapped around the downtubes and have it clamped down on your shoulders.

was my sarcastic response to Bob's claim that:

A glider doesn't pull you off the ramp with a slack hang loop!!

So I can put you down for the "Right." (as in "Yeah, right.") side of the disagreement?
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