[Bob Kuczewski]

Found on the Oz Forum:

https://youtu.be/FfwsTtAZOrw

[Bob Kuczewski]

Found on the Kitestrings Forum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfNMkJ93r0E

[Bob Kuczewski]

Found here on U.S. Hawks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IFmX3t2vg



This video is good good good.

At about 20 minutes and 39 seconds you can see a release with what Bill referred to as too much line tension. The tension at the time of the release was obviously less than required to break the weak link (or the weak link would have already broken). This shows the response that the glider would have to a weak link break at whatever tension was in the line at the time. You can compare that response to Bill's other releases under much less tension (at 6 minutes and 14 seconds, for example).

[JoeF]

Thanks, Bill, for great video.

vehiclespeed.JPG (39.31 KiB) Viewed 6240 times

[Craig Muhonen]

It was sheer luck..... .It was 1968...... .I got on a 707 in Da Nang Vietnam ......landed in Sydney Australia .......And was treated to the best week of my life. It was sheer luck....... Bill Bennett and his family "took me under their wing " and treated us to 4 days of water skiing, beer, steak, and campfires on the river. They showed us their "drag boats" and "kites" that they were going to attempt a world record flight. In the evenings Bill would show us all about his boats and ideas about "tow kiting". He had been trying to figure out how to release tho tow rope, so the kite would fly like a glider, and not "shoot" straight up. (Like it did many times) They had some crazy stories of their experiments with different mechanisms and geometry, and boat speed, and even when they thought they had it down, the "ride up" and the "release" was always a bit "iffy" Then they had to figure out how to get the angle of attack just right, so he could control the glider safely. They had many "bumps and bruises" as test pilots, but in 1968 the idea of "foot launching was still a year away.
Bill showed me how to barefoot ski, but I lasted about 20' and skipped across the water like a flat stone.
I will never forget the "respect" Bill and his family paid this young Marine, and it was tough to get back on that 707 a week later. And more sheer luck.... ..two weeks later, I stepped off another 707 back in the States.
I agree with Rick about, during the time that you are being "towed" and
"controled" you are vunerable. And these novices are not being told the truth about the risks. "This slides into criminality"
When a "for profit" business model (u$hpa) is used too much in training, I feel that young pilots miss out on steps 1, 2, and 3, and can get a case of the "OC's".
How many "moving parts" and people does it take to launch a hang glider using the "Tow" method? I stopped counting at about 100. How many "moving parts" does it take to "foot launch" a hang glider? 1 brain, 2 legs, 2 arms, and 1 voice . (When you "chirp" as you transition into the air). It's something to think about if you are a novice.

CM

[linlyons]

I trained at Mission Soaring in Tres Pinos. There were lots of critical comments on that thread, which in my experience, are not warranted. There was a comment that "she should be learning tandem." I'd had over 100 hill flights before I started towing. At Funston, I remember hearing a comment that "Pat Denevan's students always have good landings." Yes. They do lots of flights on the 30' + 40' hills before they get to tow. On the first tow, Pat attaches the tow rope, and runs and pulls you to get you off the ground. After that, when he uses the winch, you get higher in small steps. I had several tows before I was 50' off the ground. When I was being towed, the operator watched me, and slacked off the power if I got out of line, or higher than they thought was appropriate at my level.

I think that towing is safer than, for example, going to Ed Levin where the options are the 50' hill, and then the 300' hill. When you launch from the 300' hill, you'll be up in the air, and flying is all up to you. No one can see that you're in trouble and get you lower. When towing, you get up 20', then 30', then 40', in steps, with the tow operator watching to see you're flying right. You get tasks, making 45° turns, after the tow release, and getting straight again. Then 90°, etc. After many flights -- a couple dozen or more, you're allowed to turn 360° and land closer to the launch.

When we start flying, we're told that there is an element of danger to it. Nobody thinks that it's perfectly safe. I had to toss my parachute when, after dozens of tows, I attached my my tow line incorrectly. Scott Howard was at the top of his tow, with dozens of tows under his belt, when he released the tow with too much pressure on it and tumbled. I knew Raffi, who crashed at Funston. And Chris Carrillo who drowned off Devils Slide, trying to fly down to Half Moon Bay. There is some inherent danger to hang gliding. That's the price of the feeling to be up in the air, like a bird, looking down at the world.

Given my druthers, if I was starting today, I'd most certainly go back to Mission Soaring. I don't feel that I was ever put into a situation that I would not be expected to handle.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I trained at Mission Soaring in Tres Pinos.

:

Given my druthers, if I was starting today, I'd most certainly go back to Mission Soaring. I don't feel that I was ever put into a situation that I would not be expected to handle.

Thanks for your first hand comments. This topic has been dormant for some time, but I went back and picked out a few quotes to highlight some of the different perspectives. Each of these quotes is not intended to be a summary or even representative of the poster's opinions. They are just quotes that struck me as representing different viewpoints. Please feel free to read the entire topic for a deeper understanding of these issues.

My research on towing clearly indicates the practice is one of the most dangerous things one can do on a hang glider.

I agree with Rick. When will the G.D. madness end?

It will end - or begin to decrease - when enough pilots get off the fence and decide to make a difference by joining the US Hawks.

My options are towing or cliff launching. Give me towing every time.
However, it needs to be done properly.

I've done some research on the latest hang gliding fatality this last Sunday the 10th of April.

It took place at Mission Soaring Center's Hollister facility as described here - http://www.hang-gliding.com/lesson/towing

The pilot who died held a U$hPa Beginner rating.

I did rethink towing when Rod Houser got turned 180 degrees back into the face of Mingus Mountain and died on impact after foot launching.
I was rethinking, "Why wasn't he down below at the Cottonwood Airport, like he had been many times, towing where a 180 degree turn would cause some runway rash."

I am not calling for no towing, ever.
Advanced, experienced, skilled pilots can evaluate the risk.

Rick, we must agree to disagree.
If I stand ready to tow launch I am in control.

My thinking comes as a result of examining a reasonably comprehensive global fatality database.
There haven't been any footlaunching hang gliding fatalities so far this year in the USA that I am aware of.
There have been two towing fatalities during training.

For me it always came down to strengths and weaknesses of the Rogallo design. Of course the incredible simplicity made it perfect for foot launching and landing. But I have to say I would never tow one.

“A hang glider being pulled on a string is not gliding. It is something else”

Correct of course.

While under tow, a hang glider is very much a "powered" aircraft.

Rick,
I have developed procedures for how I tow. I don't tow like the USHPA tow manual recommends because their procedures don't come up to my safety standards.

I'd like to interject here that this is one of the most in depth and thought provoking topics I have followed in a long time. I have great respect for each of the people who have contributed here. The definition of hang gliding towing "safety" is being increased not insignificantly.

Rick,
You are correct 100% competent 100% of the time is not achievable even for NASA, Ford, food producers, HG manufactures and the person in charge of the vehicle driving you up the mountain.

Reading posts of instructors on hanggliding.org turns my stomach when they place blame on a novice.
It is the responsibility of instructors to protect novices.
Novices should never be put in situations where they can kill themselves in a moment of fear or confusion.
Hang gliding instruction has lost its way and now threatens the future of the sport.

Her name was Nancy Tachibana. She would have been 45 this year. As avidly as she enjoyed hang-gliding, as certain as she was and confident in those whom she entrusted with her training, there was very little she could have done differently on Sunday, April 3rd.

I hope I can call you Ziggy.

I would like to say that many of the US Hawks prefer the idea of good old basic foot launched hang gliding. The problem with any other form of getting in the air is that it adds complexity.

How would one become an expert in towing if the activity was only accessible to experts?

Tad Eareckson has a 15 page topic titled "2016/04/03 Tres Pinos fatality" available here:
     http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89
Jack Axaopoulos aids USHPA in the cover up with his private "not for public viewing" topic on hanggliding.org here:
     http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243

Found here on U.S. Hawks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IFmX3t2vg
At about 20 minutes and 39 seconds you can see a release with what Bill referred to as too much line tension. The tension at the time of the release was obviously less than required to break the weak link (or the weak link would have already broken).

Bill Bennett and his family "took me under their wing " and treated us to 4 days of water skiing, beer, steak, and campfires on the river.
...
In the evenings Bill would show us all about his boats and ideas about "tow kiting". He had been trying to figure out how to release tho tow rope, so the kite would fly like a glider, and not "shoot" straight up. (Like it did many times) They had some crazy stories of their experiments with different mechanisms and geometry, and boat speed, and even when they thought they had it down, the "ride up" and the "release" was always a bit "iffy"

I trained at Mission Soaring in Tres Pinos. There were lots of critical comments on that thread, which in my experience, are not warranted. There was a comment that "she should be learning tandem." I'd had over 100 hill flights before I started towing. At Funston, I remember hearing a comment that "Pat Denevan's students always have good landings." Yes. They do lots of flights on the 30' + 40' hills before they get to tow.

When we start flying, we're told that there is an element of danger to it. Nobody thinks that it's perfectly safe. I had to toss my parachute when, after dozens of tows, I attached my my tow line incorrectly. Scott Howard was at the top of his tow, with dozens of tows under his belt, when he released the tow with too much pressure on it and tumbled. I knew Raffi, who crashed at Funston. And Chris Carrillo who drowned off Devils Slide, trying to fly down to Half Moon Bay. There is some inherent danger to hang gliding.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this discussion.