[Nobody]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls2QiDtSO7c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX_6UZ2U ... re=related

and all this guy needed to do was...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7Ym4O38SA

[TadEareckson]

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25

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I suspect you ARE Tad.

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I was serious too... he sounds like Tad.

You're right too... at the end of the day, he's a Troll... just as Tad is a huge troll.

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[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Nobody,

You can embed YouTube videos like this:







You just include the ID (like la7Ym4O38SA) between the "youtube" brackets after you click the "youtube" button in the post editor.

With regard to the "lift and tug" - the example looks great, but that's a nearly no-wind situation. It's much harder to do that when you're in a situation near the margin of your ability to control the glider on launch. That's been my main objection to mandating the lift and tug for all people in all circumstances. Now maybe if you're a dedicated "lift and tugger", but you find yourself as the last person to launch in a windy situation, you might realize that you can't safely "lift and tug" without increasing your risk and that realization will itself heighten your awareness of your hook-in status. But to mandate that everyone do a lift and tug always or face some dire consequence (like losing their ratings) is beyond what I can support. Sorry. That's where I stand.

[TadEareckson]

OK, I'll try again. Maybe it'll get through to SOMEBODY.

It's much harder to do that when you're in a situation near the margin of your ability to control the glider on launch.

Another classic truthiness example.

1. If you're in a situation near the margin of your ability to control the glider on launch you're maybe one gust or thermal puff away from a compound fracture of something inside of one of your legs.

2. Therefore, since it is NEVER NECESSARY - or halfway intelligent, responsible, or a demonstration of the the appropriateness of your having whatever rating you do - to BE in a situation near the margin of your ability to control the glider on launch, if you want to fly in those conditions you get one or more persons to ASSIST you to double, triple, or quadruple the safety margin.

3. In windy conditions - alone or assisted - it's EASIER and SAFER to be holding the glider down with your strap and controlling it with your arms than it is holding it down AND controlling it with your arms ONLY.

4. The higher the glider is the cleaner the air it's in - and, no, I don't wanna hear any pseudo-intellectual bulls*** about how much more dangerous it will be a foot or two higher because it might catch the jet stream. In REAL life this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23659

is the sort of thing that happens when the wing is held down low. And even in that idiot sanctuary nobody's saying "Good thing you and your crew were holding that wing down, Brandon. Coulda been a LOT WORSE if it had been in that upper level airflow!"

5. Hang gliders are WEIGHT SHIFT controlled aircraft and when you're running with the glider and the wing is climbing up to the limit of the suspension - brief though that period may be - your control authority sucks.

Now maybe if you're a dedicated "lift and tugger", but you find yourself as the last person to launch in a windy situation, you might realize that you can't safely "lift and tug" without increasing your risk...

Am I the only person who finds it odd that we NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER hear from dedicated lift and tuggers (such as Yours Truly) - who, in windy conditions, are NOT, in fact, lifting and tugging but allowing the wind to do that for them - that their risk is being INcreased?

That's been my main objection to mandating the lift and tug for all people in all circumstances.

Can you quote me - or ANYBODY - EVER saying that?

Some people are physically incapable of lifting and tugging in light or nonexistent air. But EVERYBODY can do SOMETHING to check connection status within five or ten seconds of launch.

So what I MANDATE is this:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

And if you've got a USHGA rating it's ALREADY mandated.

But to mandate that everyone do a lift and tug ALWAYS or face some dire consequence (like losing their ratings)...

Getting a rating suspended for a month or two for repeatedly making no effort whatsoever to comply with the "just prior to launch" REQUIREMENT is not a dire consequence. You wanna see dire consequences for noncompliance then watch the Gilbert Aldrich - 1989/07/30 - videos.

...is beyond what I can support.

So what ISN'T beyond what you can support? Everybody does a hang check at the back of the ramp and assumes that he's hooked in for as long as it takes? The Lookout/Packsaddle Method? The Manquin Mollifier?

Cite me an ACTUAL INCIDENT precipitated by a lift and tug or a launch with tight suspension or raising a wing into the jet stream. If those procedures are as insanely dangerous as you seem to think you shouldn't have any problem. YouTube should be bursting with examples.

I can cite you a whole pile of amusing anecdotes about people who DIDN'T lift and tug or launch with tight suspension.

[Bill Cummings]

3. In windy conditions - alone or assisted - it's EASIER and SAFER to be holding the glider down with your strap and controlling it with your arms than it is holding it down AND controlling it with your arms ONLY.

WHAT!!!!????????????

[Bob Kuczewski]

3. In windy conditions - alone or assisted - it's EASIER and SAFER to be holding the glider down with your strap and controlling it with your arms than it is holding it down AND controlling it with your arms ONLY.

WHAT!!!!????????????

Ditto ... and a very nice use of smilies!!   

Tad, Joe Greblo is a very conservative instructor, and he teaches a physical hook-in check just prior to launch. He does not mandate a lift and tug. If you go to Joe's web site (http://windsports.com) you can find contact information for him. Joe knows far more about hang gliding than I probably ever will. If you can convince him that he should be teaching "lift and tug" instead of "turn and check", then you'll get my vote of support.

But the truth is, you already have my vote of support for "lift and tug". I think anyone who feels that it's the safest choice in any circumstance should be free to use it. And if they don't feel it's the safest thing to do (in their opinion and in their circumstance), then I feel that's their choice as well. I think this is the place where we differ the most. You want the right to mandate what people should do according to what YOU think they should do. That's where we part company. You seem to want a "nanny state" where someone tells us what we can and can't do. I'm fundamentally opposed to that kind of tyranny ... regardless of how well-intentioned it might be.

[TadEareckson]

I'm perfectly willing/happy to be shot down on my statement but I'd appreciate something a little more detailed than a stream of punctuation marks and smilies.

It's been a very long time since I've foot launched but from the fall of 1980 on I lifted and tugged WITHOUT FAIL on all of them and if there was enough wind to float the glider the suspension was tight when I started moving forward. If the air was light or dead I typically held the glider up tight myself but I'm not sure if I always did.

Worked for me but I can see that someone with shoulders which allowed a lot of air between them and the control frame might have issues I wasn't considering when I clicked submit.

Joe knows far more about hang gliding than I probably ever will.

1. One learns a few little tricks by flying and being around gliders. But the stuff we need to know to fly safely, effectively, efficiently isn't all that complicated and can be put down on a bit of paper that anybody with half a brain can easily interpret and assimilate.

2. If he knows something important and it isn't getting transmitted to his students and/or hang gliding culture it's not doing much good - is it? Kinda like the fatality reports that only Tim Herr gets to see.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

And notice how you will NEVER hear anything from a vegetable like this about the mysteries they've untangled in the course these hundreds of thousands of tows. After three or four of them you're pretty well maxed out. Kinda like flipping the pop top on a beer can - it's not something you get better at after decades of repetitions.

If you can convince him that he should be teaching "lift and tug" instead of "turn and check", then you'll get my vote of support.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Joe's a polar opposite of Rooney. However...

There is NOTHING in hang gliding that's so mysterious, complex, or difficult to understand that I need to do something a certain way because that's how so-and-so does it.

Hvan - 2009/01/25

Don't know why the solution is being reworked but I suppose it is human nature.

For some time hang checks have been widely regarded as the way to confirm pilot is connected to glider.

Here is a list of 10 pilots who use the 'hang check'. All of them were or are in the top 10 in the world. Most of them are or have been national champions. Some of them are past world champions. One of them is the current world champion. If it is good enough for them...

Steve Moyes
Rick Duncan
Jon Durand Jnr
Attila bertok
Craig Coomber
Rohan Holtcamp
Gerolf Heinricks
Scott Barret
Dave Seib
Curt Warren

I believe Davis Straub also uses the hang check.

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

And no REAL pilot operates that way.

bobk - 2011/02/23

I very much value experts, and I tend to highly endorse their advice. But when we turn experts (who give advice) into kings (who mandate laws) we end up with USHPA.

I don't need experts. I can do the math, physics, and logic all by myself just fine, thank you.

Turn and check.

1. I've gotta put the glider back down to check and pick it back up and trim it after I'm done. I'm not gonna do that 'cause it's too much of a pain in the a** and there's too much time that elapses between when I check and when I launch.

2. I don't need to turn. I've already preflighted the glider - including that connection. If I need to preflight that again then why stop there? Why not check the cross spar / leading edge junction bolts one more time?

3. I don't know if I've got my leg loops.

Lift and tug.

1. It's easy in dead air, literally effortless with a bit of breeze. In dead air I can do a dozen repetitions while a turn and checker is doing his once. And the glider stays level and properly pitched. And when I'm ready to go I can just leave it tugging and start my run.

2. I know the carabiner isn't dangling behind my knees and I've got my leg loops.

I think anyone who feels that it's the safest choice in any circumstance should be free to use it.

Great. So we won't be suspending their ratings for doing it. A definite step in the right direction. See if you can get Matt Taber on board with that.

And if they don't feel it's the safest thing to do (in THEIR opinion and in THEIR circumstance), then I feel that's THEIR choice as well.

1. Oh good. More OPINION based aviation.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24

We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.

And with FEELINGS - theirs and yours.

2. I'd like to see ANY of the following:

a) a report of a launch compromised by a lift and tug;

b) a report of a launch that WOULD have been compromised by a lift and tug;

c) a video of a launch in conditions/circumstances in which a lift and tug WOULD likely compromise it.

d) a report from a survivor of an unhooked launch stating that he FELT a lift and tug was not the safest thing to do (in HIS opinion and in THOSE circumstances), and that HE made the proper choice.

e) a report from a survivor or about a nonsurvivor of an unhooked launch that wouldn't have been prevented by a lift and tug.

I won't be holding my breath. Minus folk like Zack what physically can't do it, there are two types of people in this game - thems who do it their entire flying careers (Rob Kells) and thems what imagine all kinds of ridiculous nonexistent reasons why it would be dangerous while never being able to cite any actual EVIDENCE or DATA.

You want the right to mandate what people should do according to what YOU think they should do.

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

This was MANDATED by USHGA over thirty years ago - the same way it's MANDATED that you need two hours of airtime to score a Hang Three.

But in the OPINIONS of damn near everyone and his dog it wasn't necessary to make any effort whatsoever to adhere to it and they made the CHOICE to ignore it based upon their FEELINGS. So why doesn't US Hawks be consistent and allow people to skip the two hour airtime requirement if they don't FEEL it's the safest thing to do (in THEIR opinion and in THEIR circumstance) and make it a matter of THEIR choice as well?

Who do you think is gonna have a better afternoon? A person with two minutes airtime who's connected to his glider launching off Whitwell or one with two hours who isn't?

I'm fundamentally opposed to that kind of tyranny ... regardless of how well-intentioned it might be.

Yeah, down with tyranny. Let's just eliminate ALL rating requirements. People should just be able to check a boxes to determine what ratings and special skills they FEEL, in their opinion, they should qualify for. We could get a lot more members that way - quality members, virtually all Hang Fives with all the special skills signoffs.

With each flight demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch, unless, in the pilot's opinion, in his circumstances he feels it's not the safest thing to do.

Then we're consistent with:

A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot.

Which means put it where you can't possibly get to it in an emergency if you feel like it.

Welcome to US Hawks - all freedom (except for speech) and no standards, rules, competence, responsibility, or accountability.

You want the right to mandate what people should do according to what YOU think they should do.

bulls***. In REAL aviation - sailplanes, general, commercial, military - tons of stuff is mandated. And PEOPLE - who have the necessary brains, experience, education, qualifications, grips on reality - write the MANDATORY standards and procedures, not according to what THEY *THINK* should be done but what can be CONFIRMED by numbers that ANYBODY can run.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run.

Helen McKerral - 2010/01/27

Hiya Tad,

I've been doing the lift and tug for some months now, after our discussion. It's good and it works.

Ridgerodent - 2011/10/24

OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that conformation?

Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24

Once, just prior to launch.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

Zack C - 2010/10/15

Speaking of which, while I can fault Tad's approach, I can't fault his logic, nor have I seen anyone here try to refute it.

I want the organization to MANDATE a procedure because it WORKS better than anything else, it's what the people in this sport who have their shitt the most together do, and the logic and numbers are irrefutable.

[TadEareckson]

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

Rick Masters - 2011/10/19

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

See the problem?

[miguel]

Congradulations

You made a informative post without opening up and airing out the cesspool.

Thanks, I knew you could do it.

However, I will continue to turn and inspect.

[TadEareckson]

Which one? The last or the one before?

P.S.

However, I will continue to turn and inspect.

1. But, under no circumstances, lift and tug?

2. Will turning and inspecting check you leg loops?

3. If you pick up and trim but have to wait ten or fifteen seconds for the air to straighten up will you turn and inspect again?

Luen Miller - 1994/11

After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about 10 mph or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted 60' to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."

4. Are there any risks associated with turning and inspecting that you wouldn't have lifting and tugging?