[Bob Kuczewski]

In the Special Observer topic (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=806), Rick Masters made the excellent suggestion that we issue permanent ratings within the US Hawks (Thanks Rick). This is actually in keeping with the long-standing FAA policy (which I believe goes back to the Wright brothers) which issues pilots licenses for life. And since we're an Internet-based organization, there's really very little additional cost to keep members active (no magazine to mail out every month).

So what does everyone think about the idea of issuing US Hawks ratings for life? How would we ensure that pilots are "current" in that case? If someone hadn't flown in a year, would we require a check out with another US Hawks pilot? Would we require a check out with a US Hawks instructor?

Note that USHPA has no provisions to ensure that their pilots are "current" in any way (other than that they've paid their annual fee). So if we add a currency requirement of some sort, that should produce a safer (and maybe more insurable?) ratings program.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Rick Masters]

This idea that advanced pilots go out of being current on hang gliders has always bothered me. Hang gliders are not Cessnas. They're not King Airs. If you're an experienced pilot that got rusty, you don't need the USP a**. You don't need the US Hawks. You don't need anything but airtime. Find the biggest thing you can jump off of and go grab some. Wring out your wing, prone out, rotate upright, stall it, stall a tip, try to spin, do silly stuff and get the feeling back. By the time you land, you'll be current.

Yeah, of course you want to do it on a mellow, tuned glider with a freshly-packed 'chute. Go ahead and have a flying buddy check your assembly and hook-up. And I'm not talking about cliff-launching. Just a nice mountain with a gentle breeze that will provide you with enough airtime to be comfortable with the wing when you come in to land.

So why shouldn't a rating be permanent? You earned it.

When the USP a** wipes away your rating because you didn't pay your dues, is it because you no longer know how to fly a hang glider or because the USP a** took a dump because they didn't make any money off you? Now you gotta go find a USP a** Instructor and pull him away from his lucrative biz of training people who want to stunt on parachutes how not to kill themselves by moving their fingers a little the wrong way and teach you to fly a hang glider all over again. And wait for you to carry that big ol' glider back up that hill over and over.

Are you kidding me? My car can carry the glider.

Take away my rating? Are you kidding me? I earned it.

Look, how much extra, unnecessary responsibility do you want to take on as an organization for pilots? Don't get confused and think you need to develop another bloated business model. It will kill you. It is not your responsibility to bring an advanced pilot current. It is his responsibility. Let pilots be pilots and do the jobs of pilots. Hawks kick their kids out of the nest when they're ready. They know they'll figure it out. So will any experienced pilot.

However, I would agree that all pilots need to be brought up to the advanced level within a certain period of time or be required to repeat some proficiency tests. You ain't good 'til you're good. Until then, you're under our wing. But don't hop around the nest too long. Once you're good, you're on your own. Fly away.

Permanent. It's a goal and a reward. Period.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Good comments Rick. I appreciate your thinking, and I'm not committed to any position at this time.

By the way, I just sent out our first mass emailing from the US Hawks forum. Here's the content of that message:

Hello Members of the US Hawks Forum,

There has been some recent discussion about having the US Hawks begin to issue ratings (possibly lifetime ratings). We are currently anticipating that we would honor all existing USHPA ratings either initially (grandfathering) or on an ongoing basis. There have also been some discussions about having (or not having) currency requirements for ratings. These are all important considerations, and we welcome your input. Please visit that forum topic at:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=814

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
Founder - US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

P.S. We've been growing slowly (but steadily) over the last year, and we now have over 70 members. This is a good number to start thinking seriously about becoming a viable national hang gliding organization. We welcome your input in shaping this organization as it grows.

[Bill Cummings]

I like Rick Masters permanent rating idea. I also like the idea of becoming an advanced pilot within the minimum time frame allowed currently by the USHPA before being given a permanent rating.

I’ve never hung my arm outside a moving vehicle and shot at a road sign. I’ve seen evidence of it having been done just coming into Las Cruces, NM and there is a house down range of the sign. For a small percentage of people that should know better there is a need to have something in place whereby these people can be spanked. Not all guidelines, rules, and laws are a bad thing and I’m a Second Amendment Nut! I’m sure the laws in place have had a subduing effect upon roadside sign shooters and afforded the people behind the sign a greater level of safety.

The FAA has lowered the boom on Sport Pilots. I had to give it up and go solely with hang gliding. The FAA made Sport Pilot too expensive with all the new requirements, inspections, and paper work. The trikers that missed the registration deadline had expensive lawn ornaments where the only market for them was out of country. The boarder patrol is now blowing them out of the sky in the Boot Heel of New Mexico with helicopters as they are flying drugs back into the U.S.
(Thanks a lot FAA for increasing the flow of illegal drugs across our boarder.)

Soon hang gliding will get the scrutiny sport pilot enjoyed and we will probably have “N” numbers, required expensive annual inspections at Draper, Utah, and paper work up the Ying Yang!

The longer the FAA leaves hang gliding alone the better it will be for people earning less than one hundred thousand a year.

The FAA has in place for general aviation and sport pilot a pilot currency requirement. We should have some more discussion here whether or not we need to put the FAA at ease with a similar requirement just to head them off at the pass.

I still like Rick’s idea better!

Any other suggestions?

[DarthVader]

Hang gliders are not Cessnas... No they are not... But, I think the idea here is to save lives and getting pilots on the right hang glider and not the ones that they can not fly, or have not been tested on, just because a new pilot wants a topless T2c HG, and thinks he can fly it and ends up dead. Also it is important for new pilots to fly in the right conditions, manageable, we would not want them to end up up-side down on the keel praying to God on the way down. An ID system would be ideal with you picture on the card and ratings and the type of gliders you are qualified to fly, and the conditions you are qualified to fly in.....

[Rick Masters]

Well, there is the ideal and there is what you are willing and capable of accomplishing.

Let's say I'm Johnny Yahoo and I am going to fly a topless glider and you don't think I should. What are you going to do about it? Really, what are you and the US Hawks going to do? I can fly the damned thing. Get out of my way.

The answer is, you're going to watch. I'll probably figure out how to fly it because that's what pilots do.

My best friend wanted to fly a Fledge with rudders. He was a damned good pilot but he had never flown a rigid wing. I held his nose wires and he ground-handled it in the ridgelift for a while. When he was ready, he yelled "Clear!" and did I try to stop him? Did I say I was the USHGA police and he was busted? No. I jumped out of the way.

Bob sped away from the hill, rocking and yawing. I could tell he was concentrating like mad. In a few moments, he stabilized and made some gentle turns. Then he flew back and forth in front of launch. Then he buzzed me, yelling, the crazy bastard, and headed out. I saw him in the distance, circling up in a thermal. I ran to my glider and tried to catch him. Never did. Never could catch a rigid on a single surface.

Look, there's beginners who need a lot of help, there's intermediates who need a lot of insight, and there's advanced pilots who need a wire assist on a cliff launch. Sure, if I don't like what I see, I can yell, curse, try to talk a guy out of it. But I'll give him that wire assist before I walk away because the bottom line is we are pilots and we each bear the final responsibility for our own decisions. Nobody makes them for us. We don't make them for other pilots.

We are pilots. First and foremost we are pilots. We fly.

Don't try to reinvent the USHGA or the USP a**. Let's try Linux. If we can't make it work, we'll reboot.

Those organizations created a rationalization for everything they did, for every restriction and rule and regulation they implemented. It all became a self-fulfilling prophecy that caused them to destroy what they were founded to represent. Now they aimlessly blunder around, making this rule and that rule like a bunch of legislators. But we're not legislators. We're pilots. We fly.

The struggle will be to keep US Hawks mean and lean. No bloat. Not one unenforceable rule. Not one.

US Hawks has to be structured to make pilots, who fly alone, want to be part of it. US Hawks has to be more than an organization. It has to become a gestalt, a mindset, a group-think of individual desires to fly alone that coalesces into a tangible presence that exists to help hang glider pilots fly better, safer. US Hawks must never attempt to stop a pilot from flying. Pilots must understand that the Hawks are there to help but they will watch somebody screw up if they won't listen. Only then will a wayward pilot understand that the responsibility is on his shoulders: that help is there but he has to seek it out.

US Hawks cannot seek to own hang gliding. But it can exist as the soul of hang gliding - always there, ready to assist, but without the carrot and stick.

So think about a new model. The old one didn't work. What will make pilots want to participate? And what will drive them away?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Rick,

I love your philosophy and I love your vision for the sport.

But will the insurance companies love it? And if not, what does that mean to a pilot who wants to fly a hang glider at Torrey or Sylmar or Crestline or any other USHPA insured site?

By the way, I appreciate the great comments from everyone!!

Bob Kuczewski

[Bill Cummings]

Rick “-----Look, there's beginners who need a lot of help, there's intermediates who need a lot of insight, and there's advanced pilots who need a wire assist on a cliff launch. Sure, if I don't like what I see, I can yell, curse, try to talk a guy out of it. But I'll give him that wire assist before I walk away because the bottom line is we are pilots and we each bear the final responsibility for our own decisions. Nobody makes them for us. We don't make them for other pilots.”------

I must not be on the same page with you Rick or misunderstanding your meaning with regard to the quote above and earlier posts.

It was my impression that you thought that paragliding and hang gliding should not be associated with each other since the PDMC will adversely affect hang gliding. I went away with the understanding that you meant government intervention or minimally the insurance company or land owner would make the decision for us that would restrict our (HG) flying simply due to our association with paragliding.

Won’t the FAA be making decisions for us if they perceive the USHPA or the US Hawks as being reckless in their decision making?

I haven’t told anybody before but when I’m the launch director or assistant for a fly-in or meet I have wire cutters on me. (and enough money to replace the wire.)
I also carry a weapon for protection. No reckless yahoo trying to launch a glider that is obviously not airworthy is going to risk closing a site if I’m there.

I have to be missing your position here Rick since, in my mind, all your other posted positions have dovetailed quite snuggly.

Bill C. (The guy with the red handled wire cutters---I just looked again and darn it, it says China on the cutters. I hope it cuts stainless or high carbon wire.)

[miguel]

Bill C. (The guy with the red handled wire cutters---I just looked again and darn it, it says China on the cutters. I hope it cuts stainless or high carbon wire.)

Better start hitting the yard sales to snag the last of the American made tools.

[TadEareckson]

Lifetime ratings?

Yes. You don't forget how to ride a bicycle (which is another flavor of weight shift controlled vehicle) and paying dues to USHGA never did anything to hone my launch run skills or flare timing.

Currency requirements?

When the USP a** wipes away your rating because you didn't pay your dues, is it because you no longer know how to fly a hang glider or because the USP a** took a dump because they didn't make any money off you?

B.

So if we add a currency requirement of some sort, that should produce a safer (and maybe more insurable?) ratings program.

Where's the data that indicates that currency is the slightest blip on crash statistics radar?

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

flyin_canuck - 2011/03/01

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

Ann Fawkes - 2011/03/02

If the conditions are such that you need to choose between a controlled wheel landing or a risky foot landing, go for the wheels and try the foot landing in better conditions. Landing unharmed is your first priority.

Doug Hildreth - 1984/04

Failure to Hook In: I doubt if the eight reported cases represent a real increase over previous years, but rather an increase in reporting (USHGA questionnaire). Hook-in/hang-check, hook-in/step-through, hook-in/lift-glider. We gotta stop this!

Richard Johnson - 1974

The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release.

Maybe we could think REAL HARD and figure out if there's some POSSIBLE way we could do a few things differently and achieve some ACTUAL results.

So why shouldn't a rating be permanent? You earned it.

Maybe.

Now you gotta go find a USP a** Instructor and pull him away from his lucrative biz of training people who want to stunt on parachutes how not to kill themselves by moving their fingers a little the wrong way and teach you to fly a hang glider all over again. And wait for you to carry that big ol' glider back up that hill over and over.

Or maybe you just bought it from that guy. And maybe that guy was totally clueless - like most of the people I had to deal with to keep getting my card upgraded.

So I'm not all that sure it's a great idea to automatically assume that everyone who's got a USHGA card is a pilot and give him a lifetime Hawks pass.

Hawks kick their kids out of the nest when they're ready.

No they don't. The kids leave when they're ready.

However, I would agree that all pilots need to be brought up to the advanced level within a certain period of time or be required to repeat some proficiency tests.

Why? If they're flying Hang Two gliders at Hang Two sites under Hang Two conditions with Hang Two skill levels and rolling all their landings in on the wheels and they're safe, happy, and having fun why do we need to push and harrass them and prepare them for XC competition?

My best friend wanted to fly a Fledge with rudders. He was a damned good pilot but he had never flown a rigid wing. I held his nose wires and he ground-handled it in the ridgelift for a while. When he was ready, he yelled "Clear!" and did I try to stop him? Did I say I was the USHGA police and he was busted? No. I jumped out of the way.

If you HAD been the USHGA police what USHGA regulations would you have cited in the charging document?

I have no problem WHATSOEVER with what Bob did. I have HUGE problems with what George Worthington, Arlan Birkett, and Shane Smith did.

We are currently anticipating that we would honor all existing USHPA ratings either initially (grandfathering) or on an ongoing basis.

The idea behind hang gliding is to get off the ground, fly up to the clouds, stay there for an hour or two, and land without bending anything too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb4nUTAJXTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTiUCy7CK74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTa6XL16i0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

If USHGA mountain pilots were so astronomically incompetent that they couldn't get and stay off the ground more than three out of four, occasionally zero out of six attempts how good an idea would it be to welcome them into US Hawks, accept their training as valid, and honor their ratings without question?