[Bill Cummings]

"Any of that unreasonable?" Still having trouble with #3.

[TadEareckson]

So I'm up to ninety percent? OK, lemme give the other ten a shot.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23659

Brandon Russell - 2011/10/16
Ringgold, Georgia

I came really close to blowing my launch at Lookout Saturday. So close in fact, that I drug my right wing tip on the ramp.

After I landed I really started thinking about what I did wrong and I honestly wasn't sure. After looking at the video I have some thoughts but I would really like to hear some constructive criticism from you that realize that in high winds, the ramp at Lookout is a windy cliff launch, not a slope launch.

Paul Hurless
Reno

Having your hang strap taut will help you avoid that kind of problem. When it's loose you don't have that direct connection to the glider, which limits the control you'll have over it.

Brandon

Good observation, Paul.

Come to think of it, I usually make a conscious effort to pick the glider up high enough to tighten my hang strap. I didn't do that here.

Steve Corbin
Crestline

Get as far forward on the ramp as possible, this will help ensure that both wings are in "clean" air. It will also reduce the chances of a ramp strike if one wing does go down.

gluesniffer

I like to start with my straps tight too if the air is strong enough and smooth enough that the glider will rise off my shoulders.

Brandon

>
Get as far forward on the ramp as possible, this will help ensure that both wings are in "clean" air.
<

This is the main thing I was hoping someone would point out. In my preflight with the wire crew I even said "I will go all the way to the red line" ... the problem is that I didn't. If I would have, I believe things would have been very different.

I have a very good understanding of the dynamics to launch from this ramp, which is why I'm kicking myself for not moving far enough out into the "real" airflow. I knew that's what I was supposed to do. I had even told two or three pilots before me, "keep your nose down, and get all the way to the red line" ... why I didn't do the same ... there lies the problem. I don't know.

Robert
Australia

I have absolutely no experience with ramp launches but have done hundreds of high wind launches at Stanwell. I have a question...

In high winds is it possible to do a base bar launch on that or any ramp? That way you are flying the wing with a tight hang strap before you launch.

I basically only do base bar launches. If the wind is strong enough, anything over 10-12 knots, enough to float my wing, I use the base bar. To me I love the solid feeling of launching with my feet still on the ground but flying my wing with virtually full control through a tight hangstrap.

Nicos
Canberra

Maybe a tight hang strap would have alerted you to the dropping wing a nanosecond earlier...

Jonathan Dietch

I also agree that getting a little farther out into the airflow would have helped avoid the incident.

Just launch as far out into the airflow as you can safely get in high winds.

Ryan Voight

Yes, I agree walking up to (or past) the red line would be a good idea. If it's strong and you only need a few steps, not just moving to the start of the slope of the ramp, but actually starting ON the slope can further help.

Christopher

Steps 2 and 3 show a low glider with a slack hang strap being driven by your upper arms (good) and hands (not so good). Step 4 finds the glider supported purely by your hands; because your posture is nearly prone, you have no ability to support the dropping right wing.

I see the pilot lowering himself until the strap is tight.

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/10/17

I launched around 3:00. It was a strong day and very gusty with strong thermals rolling through. Most of what I see can be attributed to not being out to the red line. Both wings should be in the airflow. It gets turbulent further back and you can get knocked around, but it feels like you are in the airflow when you are not.

I like having someone on the rear wires as I am walking out due to ramp suck before you get fully in the airflow.

Windlord
Montana

Just launching with a loose hang strap started the reaction. Without weight being transferred to the CG point, the wing will want to follow the path of least resistance, no matter how hard you apply force to the DT's. It's no biggie, just correct the error next time.

The practice we got into launching high wind Torrey was the nose wire person would donut up on the wires and state "Pilot has the wing." This would give the pilot a chance to "feel" the wing.

fly,surf,&ski
Torrey Pines

Lots of good stuff has already been said, especially about getting all the way out as far as you can into the clean air...

Brandon

Thanks. The bad thing is that I knew to get farther out into the cleaner air ... I just failed to do it. Maybe this will help the next person remember just how important it is. I hope to never have to show you all another "lesson" again.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Notice:

This discussion has degenerated into entrenched positions, so I'd like to get a vote on whether the US Hawks should mandate launching with a tight hang strap in ALL conditions for ALL pilots at ALL times or if the regulation should recommend launching with a tight hang strap but leave it up to the pilot's decision based on the conditions and the situation.

With that goal in mind, I've created a special poll topic to discuss the US Hawks Hook-In Verification policy. The poll is at:

    Building the US Hawks
        US Hawks Hook-In Verification Poll

Let's please continue any hook-in policy discussions in that topic since this topic is in the "Videos" section. The hook-in discussion is obviously appropriate for the videos posted in this topic, but I think those discussions should be limited to the actual videos and our policy discussions should take place in the "Building the US Hawks" forum.

Thanks to everyone for participating in all of these discussions.

[Nobody]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBoXhNUj ... r_embedded


WHO can look at this without a tear ?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hello Nobody,

If you don't have any strong objection, then I'd like to combine this topic with the other FTHI Video topic so we can keep everything together.

If you do have an objection, please explain it as soon as possible because I will be combining them shortly if I don't hear from you.

Thanks.

[Nobody]

what ever you say Bob !

[Bob Kuczewski]

what ever you say Bob !

Thanks. I'm just trying to keep things somewhat orderly here. Typically, when there are two very similar topics, it becomes unlikely that they'll both get the same amount of posting. So one of them will tend to get "stale" and fade into history. That causes them to get separated and people reading one of them might not read the other.

Since the FTHI topic is so very important (whether we agree on how to fix it or not), I think it's a good idea not to lose any of our posts. So I've merged your new "FTHI II" topic into this FTHI topic to keep it all together. Thanks for your permission to do that.

Bob Kuczewski (wearing my moderator hat)

P.S. Have you voted in the US Hawks Hook-In Verification Poll poll yet? I'm curious about your opinions there.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Note that "Nobody" posted the following FTHI topics in the "Free Speech Zone". They contain links to various articles on the subject. I haven't read them all, but they look like they're worth reading for anyone interested in this topic.

Investigation of Fatal Hang Glider Accident at the Remarkab
    by Nobody » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:56 pm
    http://www.nzhgpa.org.nz/docs/o_hareparsonspolicereport.pdf

Brief Recommendations for Preventing Omission Errors in Hang
    by Nobody » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:00 pm
    http://www.nzhgpa.org.nz/docs/do_hareparsonssummary.pdf

FTHI- Kunio Yoshimura
    by Nobody » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:19 pm
    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2008/09/hang_glider_pilot_who_forgot_t.php

Root cause analysis
    by Nobody » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:53 pm
    https://webspace.utexas.edu/mae548/www/research/digital%20forensics/qp0704rooney.pdf

[Bill Cummings]

In the launching tight or loose strap discussion I agree with Ryan’s post.
But look to the video at the slow motion launch and watch the left wingtip and it’s alignment with the horizon/skyline. The tip before launch is in a plane below the horizon and from the first step of the pilot it starts it’s ascent to above the horizon. (at about 0:47 the slow motion starting the launch.)
It is obvious to me that from the moment he started his launch he had more lift under his left wing. What Ryan says regarding wiremen I agree with.
Judging from the tell tail at the left front of the ramp to me that indicates not enough wind to float the glider - strap tight.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23659&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20&sid=8bb1e36e1c9a07048cdda41591293a28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd1EIsbG0p0&feature=player_embedded
("Bad Launch.wmv" youtube)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote #22
Ok, first and foremost- major props for having the brass to post this here... it's one thing for pilots to hear about walking up to the red line... it's another thing to SEE what can happen when you don't.

In response to the ideas and comments above:
-Yes, I agree walking up to (or past) the red line would be a good idea. If it's strong and you only need a few steps, not just moving to the start of the slope of the ramp, but actually starting ON the slope can further help. Picture that the wind is probably bending around that bend in the terrain... even walking up to the edge, you're still in bending air.

-Tight vs loose hang strap. Someone nailed it when they said tight hang strap is better if the conditions are smooth enough to let the glider fly... but few do well when they actually lift the glider up in order to take the slack out of their mains. In shnasty windy conditions, the grapevine hold as far down as you can on the DT's and using your shoulders as the fulcrum point will give you the most leverage for pitch-down.

-Base tube launches are ONLY FOR SMOOTH AIR! 'nuff said

-Quick hand transition; It didn't look like you popped the nose... but it's hard to FEEL what the glider is doing if you're switching your hands around. Hard to fix a banked wing if you don't realize it's banked until it's REALLY banked! On that note- see next comment below...

A few things I'd like to add to the discussion:
-Someone touched on you looking ahead... but I didn't see any mention of where you look when you start running. Watch the video again, and tell us if you think where you were looking gives you a good reference to catch a lifting or dropping wing early enough to respond? popcorn

-I would like to talk for a moment about wire crews in general, before talking about your wire crew specifically. There are a few situations where wire crews are pretty much NEEDED. Ramps are one of them, because of "ramp suck". The rotor behind the ramp can actually be blowing TOWARDS the ramp... so walking up to the ramp you get a sudden tailwind that pushes you up and forwards into the real wind, and poof you just launched whether you were ready or not. Another situation that calls for wire crew is if winds (and accompanying ridge lift) are too strong to hold the glider by yourself. This would be when you see the "monday launch" where everyone lets go at once and the glider skyrockets up and away. The last (common) use of wire crew is when conditions are switchy, gusty, punchy... when you might need all hands on deck one moment and then are able to hold the glider casually the next.

Looking at this video specifically... I think ramp suck should be a concern, so having the wire crew was a good call. Note that, once in the true airflow, ramp suck shouldn't be an issue, so wire crew shouldn't be needed. The second reason I listed, winds too strong to hold the glider yourself... since this isn't a coastal site, I'll be so bold as to say if it's too windy to launch without help (in terms of sheer velocity, not talking gusty or ramp suck) then it's probably blown out and you shouldn't be launching to begin with? Lastly, if it's gusty and rowdy, a wire crew can very welcome- or sometimes very necessary. But in this type of condition, they're there for the rowdy parts... not to actually wire-launch you off. They might be close, maybe with open hands near your wires... but they shouldn't be doing anything- you need to feel the glider 100% before committing to the launch. And I think this is what you had going on here...

"Clear" means let go and get out of my way... here "clear" meant I'm going... so you started your launch without ever feeling if the glider was balanced. Even of they both said neutral... they clearly weren't CLEAR until you were running.

I'd also like to talk about wire-crew technique for a moment... we see two different techniques in this video. On your left wing, we have open hands above your wires. He's got you, and if the wing lifts he's there to stop it. But other than that he's off. On your right wing, we have closed hands. He might say neutral... but is he neutral? Also, it's going to take him longer to clear that wire than the guy on the other side. For all we know he pulled down a second longer than the guy on the other side (not saying he did, but we don't know). Personally, I won't launch until I see open hands, or better yet hands OFF, on my wires.

One other important note is that balancing a glider isn't just about pitch/AofA and roll... there's a yaw aspect too. You can and have to use the glider like a rudder, pointing the nose straight into the wind to get that balanced feeling. When it's windy/gusty at a site like that, the wind direction is every changing, and you need to be able to feel that through the glider. As soon as that guy grabs your wire, even with no up or down pressure on it, he prevents you from being able to move that wing forward or back to yaw the glider into the wind in order to maintain a balanced feel.

So- YES, you should have been all the way up to the edge of the ramp... or even a few steps down the ramp if that's feasible at that site? BUT- you also should have made sure the glider was balanced (for sure, like your life depends on it) before launching. That wing drops IMMEDIATELY, which means of you had the whole glider to yourself, it's pretty likely you would have felt that imbalance. It's not like it suddenly happened when you ran and they let go... much more likely it was there from the start.

Lastly, buy a lotto ticket, kiss your wife and kids, and thank whoever you care to thank for getting such a cheap lesson and wake up call. This hang gliding thing is dangerous, don't ever think otherwise. It deserves our full attention, always. Doubley so for launching and landing thumbsup

PS I'm impressed with anyone who took the time to read this whole post without scanning through it or skipping over it....
_________________
Ryan Voight
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