[Frank Colver]

Joe,

I may be visiting Alpacka Raft again in Sept. Is there anything specific you would want be to discuss with them? They not only make inflatable rafts but also bladders for some of them.

I don't know if they would take on doing any custom, one off work, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

You would need to give me some specifics about what you would want them to make. Generalizations wouldn't help much although I can also discuss those.

Don't include cost in your decisions because we can discuss that later, since I can help in that regard as I did with Jim's suprone harness development.

Keep cranking your brain, you're coming up with some good ideas.

One thing I'm concerned about is your decision to make the first effort a small glider. If you can't get it airborne because of high wing loading them it will negatively impact the effort. In hindsight I believe that i should have made my Skysail bigger to make it easier for me to launch and land and I would have made more flights which would have promoted the design shape concept better, I say shape not construction (now many gliders have that same general shape but are flex-wings).

Frank

[JoeF]

Frank: mucho thanks ... appreciate.
1. Already, you just being you forms part of the foundations for Wing5 iterating adventure. The added offers ... just in the offering spurs and impacts! No doubt.

2. For sure: I am tooling up to built many iterations of Wing5: M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, etc. M1 will be informative; mainly M1 will practice crafting; M2 will follow shortly after M2. M3 will use lessons and the tooling readiness. I will fly M1 on September 21, 2021, no matter how small she will be and no matter the wind. I flew Bob's Little Hawk at Dockweiler; that bird was not even built for flying. That might be the only day M1 flies ... or not, but M2 will follow very soon thereafter.

3. Important to me: tooling up for the many coming makes. The crafting brings joy; the flying brings joy. Whatever is shared that might add to someone's life brings joy.

4. Shape? That will come. Packability is a core aim. DIY factors are of high value. "Dockweiler only for soft-S" is the first-era playground. Getting sharp at soft rigging is part of the learning curve deal here. Finding keen construction technologies for these aims is part of the game. M1 will be just the beginning of a new packable era for me; others might get in on the same game; that would be great.

5. First bladder for M1 will be far too heavy at 4 mm PVC from the pool hack. New decision: going for one full span bladder for M1, not the two indicated in a former post; I did not like having to deal with two pressures in two bladders; and I did not want to wrestle with center challenges. The full-span spar case and full-span single bladder will simplify M1.

6. And M1 performance will be less for the decision of going for 5 ribs: 2 wing-tip, 1 over keel, and then 2 mid-side-wing ribs. Airfoil won't be terrifically defined for such paucity. M2, etc. will seen higher rib counts.

7. Alpacka Raft questions? https://sgbonline.com/celebrating-20-years-with-alpacka-raft-president-thor-tingey/
It would be fun to simply observe all their crafting in shop and so learn. I am stepping to form a production line for iterations of Wing5, ever experimenting and testing ....

8. When a M# appears that begs top investment, we'll talk over your generous spirit, Frank. Right now, M1 may use some backyard-held materials. Bob said something close to: "there is nothing here (my yard) that will make a flying hang glider" but I will in M1 of Wing5 actually use some of the extant yard materials.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I will fly M1 on September 21, 2021, ...

I have added an additional note to my calendar for that date, and I respectfully request to be part of your crew on that historic day.

Thanks in advance for your consideration of my request.

Bob

[JoeF]

Great Bob! Official crew, thou art!
Carrybacker? 9-1-1 caller? Pilot picker-upper? Sand collector? Photographer? Pieces gatherer? First-test pilot job might be open, especially if M1 of Wing5 seems to be pitch divergent We might need to seek a 50-lb test pilot . Or Condor 210 over-wing?

============
Almost all of my yard matter won't fly ....
until I throw the stuff up in the air!
===============

This morning I found in my yard: leaking pool ring of PVC bladder; I must have cut up a pool years ago; the diameter is small; but it will be good practice repairing the bladder, cutting it and closing the cuts to make one long bladder.
And I found three discarded paragliders; these should supply soft rigging for Wing5-M1.

Wing5-M1 may have some wood where some M#x will have aluminum or carbon fiber.

Some flashes this morning: spar case of Mylar or polycarbonate film that would be flat kedered and packed as coil of about 3 ft long roll and 12-inch diameter coil; pack things inside the spar-case item; wrap sail material about the coil. Maybe have a second pack item fo sticky parts up to 5 ft, if not 3 ft.

I am not yet a soft-cord splicer technician; but it is a goal to get such expertise. Aim is for many Wing5 series of wings to be with soft rigging.

Another morning flash: there is in me a commitment to obtain good small-pack Wing5 hang gliders, some using inflated technologies, but some not using inflated technologies. There will be many iterations that will be strictly for "Dockweiler-soft-S-only" use; but the "Five-or-less movement" embraces the full spectrum of hang gliding; others may be having some similar goals and commitments; if so, they are welcome to share their progress in this forum.

The posts concerning High-Hat (HH) have some content, but not enough yet. Kai responded some with query about the vertical separation from the main wing. All good, but more attention and study on HH matters are anticipated. Wing5-M1 will feature an experimental (all matters .... are experimental for me) rotating tumbling wing that rotates faster as the apparent wind increases and slows as the apparent wind slows. The size needed is yet unknown; there are a couple of close ways to change the size of the wing situation in the HH assembly: extended cantilever axle (not wanted, if avoidable) or changing the chord of the airfoil used on the HH. An adjustment to shape to higher cambers is available. Field adjustments will be part of a learning curve. Matters will change relative to use of main-wing reflex or lack of reflex; we don't want to have pitch-ins, slap downs, or unrecoverable dives! Playing with fire here! Say: time for Safe-Splat That linked post thread has a reminder in it by Bob that the best Safe-Splat is no splat at all. Chris has been seemingly on that same bent.

[JoeF]

Basting tape, seamstick
Document for study
Status personal: amateur. Aim: get to know materials for sewing better with aim to advance Wing5 iterations. Discerning just what to use for various solutions is part of the adventure.

Placing flat keders in the edges of sail and spar case will be involving hems; Sliding may or may be wanted; when wanted, then double-sided tape may be wanted with or without a fabric base to the tape (just adhesive or fabric cored double-sided tape).

[Frank Colver]

Unfortunately I will still be in Utah on Sept 21 and miss the great event.

[JoeF]

Frank,
May your Utah trip be a blessing to many and yourself!

Other field explorations with following iterations of Wing5 are anticipated throughout 2021 and 2022 and more.
This M1 first day will have results that might be "uneventful" or hold fun flights. I hope to bring all the parts to the site And the pump! Though the air will be ambient and free, getting the air into the bladder at pressure will need the pump! Crew Bob might assist on the pumping. If the bladder springs a fast leak, Bob might run along side the wing with the pumping happening during run and launch .... Inadequate air: soaring stops
==================================

Property of a Dockweiler Hang Glider: Carryback ability
How might we measure and maybe standardize this property. Carrybacks might need pauses and tie downs. Emotional reports by those who have done the carrybacks. Grade report? Quotient? Tolerable? Safe?

Aspects:
How many people are needed to perform the carryback? Where are helpers to hold the wing during a carryback?
How does the carryback operation go in calm?
How does the carryback go in moderate winds?
How does the carryback go in high winds?
How much does the hang glider weigh?
What happens when the wing is parked without tie downs?
What does the tie down look like? Number of tie downs? Connection points?
How does kiting of the glider go? Bridles? Bridle connection points?
Is the carryback fun, not fun, tissue-tearing, enjoyable, pleasant, onerous, ...?
???

Those things above will be being studied and reported for each iteration of Wing5.

=====================
Another property: Packability
How might this property be quantified?
One package? Two packages? Three packages? Or more?
Handiness of each involved package?
Weight of each involved package?
Is the matter self packing?
How many non-flight parts are used in the packing? Weights?
Will there be wheels involved?
Safety quotient for the packs: self and public?
Vulnerability to abrasion or other injury during the packing and toting?
Shippability of the packing? Cost of shipping? Dimensions and resultant charges?
????

========================
Once the 5-ft-or-less movement is matured, what effects will such have on hang gliding participation, operations, sites, costs, overall costs, enjoyment, flight types, flight frequency, safety, ...?

[KaiMartin]

ThreeInOneCE.png

("Three kedered edges into one rail cavity of the CE") - (I couldn't figure out how to make the actual image appear in my reply)

I like this idea.
This is similar to the way the main sail of modern dinghies are attached to the mast. Assembling the wing might resemble to setting sail on a yacht. A rope running on the inside of the groove would assist to pull the wing along the spar. Once in place, there is no way the sail would come off by the forces of the air during flight.

It is easy to build, too. Just put a rope in the seam of the sail and make sure that the width of the groove is smaller than the combined thickness of the three ropes inside of the sail and the tensairity carcass. No need for precision.

---<)kaimartin(>---

[KaiMartin]

Thanks for the Porta-Wing reminder from hanggliding.org. The first mention of the Porta-wing here on the U.S. Hawks was Sep 27, 2011 by Joe Faust:

"Differently is the Platz, the Porta-Wing, and other super-sharp LE gliders."

While sharp leading edges are easy to build, there are serious drawbacks:
With a sharp leading edge the airflow behaves in a less then desired way. A sharp LE does a poor job to attach the flow to the surface of the wing at low speed. This reduce the maximum lift and thus the minimum speed when compared with a profile with a more rounded LE. And when the flow detaches, it does so rather abruptly.

---<)kaimartin(>---

[KaiMartin]

[attachment=0]2AntibucklingRegionConcerns.png

A few notes:

• There is no significant longitudinal pull or push on the spar. Therefore, any compression is accompanied by a corresponding compressing force on the opposite side of the spar. So the point where the down wire attaches should be marked with a "T", too.
• Forces on the spar vary in interesting ways. I was surprised to note that the down wires could be come slack when the bar is pulled in for maximum speed. Apparently, the outer wing can even produce negative lift.
• There is probably some additional horizontal stress on the bar. I am not sure about the direction and amplitude, though.

---<)kaimartin(>---