The US Hawks should:

[Bob Kuczewski]

I flatly deny the characterization and ask you for any scrap of evidence that I've EVER said otherwise ...

Tad,

You spend so much time tracking down other people's posts that you've forgotten what you've written yourself:

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

Later in that same post you listed the penalties:

A. If you allow a student under your supervision to launch without doing a hook-in check within the previous five seconds you will lose instructor certification for three years on the first offense, permanently on the second.

B. If you launch without doing a hook-in check within the previous five seconds you will have your rating suspended for three months on the first offense, one year on the second, and permanently revoked on the third.

C. If you witness noncompliant launches without reporting them within 48 hours you will be penalized to the same extent as if you yourself violated the protocol from One to Three.

Five seconds?
Three year/month suspension on the FIRST offense?
Permanant revocation on the SECOND offense?

Your suggested 5 second time limit between hook-in check and launch is unreasonably short - especially when attached to the consequences that you've listed. This would preclude, for example, the "turn and verify" hook-in check that Joe Greblo teaches because 5 seconds would easily elapse between that check and getting the glider back into position and ready for launch. Every one of Joe's students would fail that test on every flight.

Furthermore, please list the names of any pilots (including yourself) who've never violated these requirements in their lifetimes. That would be the number of people left in the sport of hang gliding if you got your way.

[TadEareckson]

You're leaving out just a wee bit of CONTEXT with those quotes.

IMMEDIATELY after:

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

We have:

Somebody make a case otherwise.

And IMMEDIATELY after A, B, and C, we have:

Think that might work a little better than thirty years worth of talking about it?

Those were ideas thrown out for discussion - not regulations ready to be chiseled in granite.

And, for the record, I don't recall anyone making a case otherwise for the first bit or suggesting that A, B, and C WOULDN'T work a little better than the thirty years of rationalizations for why "just prior to launch" doesn't actually mean "just prior to launch".

Also...

Can any of our more careful readers spot the difference(s) between:

Tad Eareckson - 2011/06/05

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

and:

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/11/04

A - REQUIRE ALL pilots to launch with a tight hang strap in ALL conditions.

?

This would preclude, for example, the "turn and look" hook-in check that Joe Greblo teaches because 5 seconds would easily elapse between that check and getting the glider back into position to launch.

Ignoring the fact that I haven't ANYWHERE proposed a five second cap...

GOOD. I don't like turn and look. Here's why:

Luen Miller - 1994/11

After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about 10 mph or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted 60' to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."

You LOOK at the connection as part of your PREFLIGHT procedures ten minutes ago in the setup area. Then you rely on your MEMORY of having performed that check - just like the goddam dipstick for the Cessna. You don't keep repeating preflight procedures on the ramp because if Mother Nature doesn't break your leg the people in line behind you will at least be thinking about it.

You do the lift and tug - as the commencement of your LAUNCH SEQUENCE - because that's the fastest, safest technique for confirming that you haven't done anything really stupid involving a helmet, camera, radio, or cell phone since your preflight procedures in the setup area ten minutes ago.

And most people in most circumstances find that it improves their control of the glider.

Go to:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23659

and try to find somebody talking about how much better that launch woulda gone if he had turned and looked at his carabiner ten or fifteen seconds before launch.

Furthermore, please list the names of ANY pilots (including yourself) who've NEVER violated these requirements in their lifetimes.

1. I have absolutely no way of answering that question for anybody but myself. And I NEVER ONCE violated the five second rule dating back to the fall of 1980 - about half a year before the "just prior to launch" regulation went on the books.

2. I suspect those who were properly trained - or, like I did, properly trained themselves - can say the same thing. This really isn't as much of a B*D as people who refuse to even consider trying it once love to make it out to be.

That would be the number of people in the sport of hang gliding if you got your way.

1. As discussed above, that's not my way - it's just a thought experiment.

2. If it weren't it wouldn't apply retroactively. Kinda like in the US justice system you can't pass a law and then start arresting people for violating it before it was passed.

3. Under the thought experiment regulations a pilot would hafta have THREE violations to go into permanent exile.

4. Good. That would sure eliminate a lot of r*ichardheads. Pretty clean slate. Start off doing things right and keep them that way.

P.S. I've just given you a good example of somebody getting seriously int*rcoursed up by turning to inspect his connection. But I still haven't heard of anyone getting scratched doing the dreaded lift and tug.

[TadEareckson]

Zack C - 2011/11/07

Everybody and his dog knows what "just prior" means.

I disagree. Almost exactly one year ago HHPA debated this furiously.

Yeah, I think I remember that discussion.

"Just prior" means:

a) do a hang check in the setup area.
b) never get into your harness unless it's connected to your glider.
c) never under any circumstances lift the glider until you feel the tug at your leg loops.
d) At the meeting or Now on line , i wish to Call for Vote by its HHPA members to Ban Tad .
e) all of the above.

I forget how that one turned out.

Shortly after the 9/11 attacks a few of the locals figured we could stick it to Al Qaeda by bravely going out flying even more effectively than bravely shopping at the mall.

Then they found out that when the FAA grounded everything that everything included hang gliders.

Then they bravely started arguing that a hang glider skimming down the slope from the top of a ninety foot training hill wasn't actually flying. It was really no different from what they did as eight-year-olds with Flexible Flyers on snow days. But I don't recall anybody sending back a rating card after determining that such excursions on the glider shouldn't have counted for proficiency level requirements.

I still say that everybody and his dog knows what "just prior" means. It's just that when the specification bumps up against whatever flavor of hang gliding religion with which the individual has been indoctrinated he will fight to the death rather than alter his rituals in any measurable way.

I think the reason no one enforces USHPA's regulation is that it's too vague to be enforceable.

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact.

It doesn't get any more black and white than that. So where's the enforcement? Bent pins are central to the religious indoctrination - so here they stay.

How about we change 'just prior' to 'within ten seconds'?

I think we'll do a lot better with intent and best / good faith effort. We need to get a mindset in which EVERYONE - pilot, wire crew, observers - is focused on the issue the INSTANT before launch.

I doubt it will completely satisfy anyone here but I think even an effort to teach this if not enforce it will make a big dent in the number of hook in failures.

Teaching - not enforcement at the ramp - is key. We do the enforcement on the goddam "instructors" - brutally. If the Flight Park Mafia can get everybody and his dog towing on 130 pound Greenspot and convincing them beyond and any trace of a doubt that it's keeping them safe, a non evil entity will have no trouble whatsoever conditioning students with a procedure and mindset that actually DOES keep them safe. But we've gotta hit 'em on Day One, we've gotta hit hard, and we've gotta hit EVERYBODY - ALL THE TIME.

P.S. Bob... Oops. In the previous post I neglected to take the "i" out of "r*chardheads" when I added the asterisk. Can you fix that for me before some sixteen-year-old reads it and becomes a heroine addicted, AIDS infected, transgender prostitute who uses straight pins for aerotowing?

[Nobody]

Teaching - not enforcement at the ramp - is key.

Bingo

We do the enforcement on the goddam "instructors" - brutally.

Yes

But we've gotta hit 'em on Day One

Fundamental !

[ZackC]

Your suggested 5 second time limit between hook-in check and launch is unreasonably short...

I disagree. Besides lift-and-tug, hook-in status can be verified by verbally confirming it with others (as Tad pointed out) or possibly tapping your helmet on your carabiner (although I've found this doesn't work for me)...or by a mirror for that matter. All of these can easily be done within five seconds of launching, and I'm sure there are other methods we haven't discussed.

More important than the method I think is the mindset - NEVER assuming you're hooked in. This assumption is what causes hook in failures and is promoted by hang checks (and the Aussie method for that matter).

Zack

[TadEareckson]

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Last Thought Before You Start Your Launch Run: Hooked In?

The Best Insurance Is To Believe It Can Happen To You!

I believe that there is no "one method" that is best for all pilots or situations. If fact, we use different methods at different times.

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

George Stebbins - 2010/02/16

I've known Tad a long time. Tad often annoys me. I frequently disagree with him. But I think he's (mostly) right here. A lift-and-tug (what Greblo calls a "hook in check", as opposed to a "hang check.") is a low cost, high reward tool. Using it is a simple decision. And when you can't do it for some odd reason, you should get a red flag that says to do something else to (temporarily) replace it. BTW, there's nothing wrong with using other stuff too, including the above mentioned visual check, and a hang check. But never assume you are hooked in.

The key point that Tad is trying to make in his annoyingly prolific and pedantic fashion is the assumption made. Always assume you aren't hooked in except immediately after you've checked it. After a few seconds, you have to assume you aren't hooked in again. If you know you are, you are at risk. I've been known to mutter under my breath as I walk to launch: "I am not hooked in, I am not hooked in." Hey, it can't hurt! (And I've been caught doing it louder than under my breath a time or two...)

Helen McKerral - 2010/09/07

More important, I think, is a change in mindset: that you constantly assume that you are NOT hooked in. That is the default mindset and only after you've done the lift and tug - immediately before every launch - do you decide you're hooked in. Also, because the default assumption is negative rather than positive, you are much less likely to start any run unhooked.

I've adopted the lift and tug but I'm an old dog learning a new trick and I still forget to do it some of the time. However, although I've found that it's very hard to remember to do if you try to remember 'L&T', if you change your mindset to, "I'm not hooked in", it's easier to recall. It would be easier if I had learned it from the start, so it was a physical muscle memory instilled from my first days on the training hill, just like the grapevine grip changing to bottle.

Allen Sparks - 2010/09/07

I have launched unhooked and experienced the horror of hanging by my fingers over jagged rocks ... and the surreal result - i.e. not being significantly injured.

I am a firm believer in 'lift and tug' and the mindset of assuming I am not hooked in. It is motivated by the recurring memory of my own experience ... and the tragic deaths and life-altering injuries of good friends.

Notice how the people who GET this issue all tend to converge on the same wavelength?

Compare/contrast with:

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/07

Preflight, Hangcheck, Know you're hooked in

[Bob Kuczewski]

These are quotes from Tad (June of 2011) regarding potential hook-in check policies:

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

A. If you allow a student under your supervision to launch without doing a hook-in check within the previous five seconds you will lose instructor certification for three years on the first offense, permanently on the second.

B. If you launch without doing a hook-in check within the previous five seconds you will have your rating suspended for three months on the first offense, one year on the second, and permanently revoked on the third.

C. If you witness noncompliant launches without reporting them within 48 hours you will be penalized to the same extent as if you yourself violated the protocol from One to Three.

Who thinks that this proposal is worth starting a poll? If so, please post here or start one yourself with whatever options you think are appropriate and representative of our legitimate choices.

Thanks.

[SamKellner]

It is a topic on safety, for sure. Poll? I don't know.

Lift and tug 90% of the time. Whenever conditions permit.

A. If an instructor allows a student to haunch unhooked, will lose instructor cert........ bla bla..... that part's ok.

B. Perform hangcheck before advancing to final launch position. Perform hookcheck at final launch position. If pilot unhooks, glider must be moved back to hangcheck position. Perform hookcheck upon returning to final launch position.

IMO, There are many other final checks, weather/wind check, instruments, LZ, etc. It would take 5sec to perform a hookcheck. At 5sec intervals?
If we all did that we would all be launch potatoes

C. When witnessing a fellow pilot n glider at final launch position, visually verify hook-in. If unhooked, shout abort launch

[Nobody]

I might agree with Sam, IF I could figure out what the hell he is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[Bob Kuczewski]

IMO, There are many other final checks, weather/wind check, instruments, LZ, etc. It would take 5sec to perform a hookcheck. At 5sec intervals?

If we all did that we would all be launch potatoes

That's exactly right ... unless the "hookcheck" being done is a "lift and tug", and that's what Tad is trying to mandate through the back door with this regulation.

I agree with your assessment that "lift and tug" (tight hang strap launch) is good in most cases, and I think it should be taught by all instructors. Tad's attempt to mandate this through a 5-second rule with ridiculously steep penalties goes too far.

Tad seemed to back down from that when he wrote "Those were ideas thrown out for discussion - not regulations ready to be chiseled in granite.", so I'd like to hear another suggestion from him. Tad?