[TadEareckson]

I recall reading Shane's account how he was coaching John on the way to the flying site, about what to do if flying back toward the hill.

I would really, really, really like to see that account. That's freakin' huge.

1981/11/26
John Klein
34
five years
St. Petersburg
UP Comet 185

Pilot had expressed concern about presence of a crane. Following release from boat tow he was flying slowly in its vicinity and apparently stalled downwind directly into it.

Ring any bells?

1989/10/14, King George, Virginia. I took somebody else's student at one of the major area training hills. His instructor had cleared him to fly from the top - about 75 feet - but there was a rather nasty ravine cutting through the flood plain / cow pasture below. It was off to the right of the landing area but within easy striking distance and I expressed my concern.

I then watched him perfectly execute everything I had just finished cautioning him not to do. He got himself turned towards it, skimmed for a bit in mush mode and pancaked into the far - near vertical - bank. It was like seeing a starship getting sucked into a black hole.

Didn't look like any BFD - I don't think he even bent a downtube - but he had extended a leg to BRACE FOR IMPACT and shattered a knee.

About five years later Mike Robertson told us all at an instructor certification clinic to NEVER tell a student what NOT to do - because if you did you could be one hundred percent certain he would do it. LIGHTBULB!

And then I recalled the steep, east facing dune just across the road from Kitty Hawk Kites from which I had qualified for my Two on 1980/04/07 from the Doug Rice in those Rescue 911 FTHI videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls2QiDtSO7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX_6UZ2UWEE

...Nobody dug up for us.

In 1982 the dune was lower and the terrain started sloping up significantly from the base to the road. It wasn't a great dune for tourist rides but it was the best we had for the wind direction. I'd caution the class about the hazard and then watch everyone in it stiff-arm the basetube, dive straight into the upslope, and create really spectacular craters. Sand is extremely forgiving and nobody ever got hurt but the class would sometimes need be canceled.

They're anxious to begin with (as they should've been flying a dune which, I realize in hindsight, wasn't really appropriate for first/one timers); I give them a better focus for their anxiety by telling them what to do and not to do to avoid the hazard; the anxiety becomes the visualized outcome and expectation and, thus, the self fulfilling prophesy; everything is reinforced when it becomes the reality; and the students start learning how to do it wrong really well by watching each other doing it wrong.

1. There's a limit to how bad I feel John Watje's serious injury 'cause I wasn't the guy who OKed him to fly from the top with that hazard below.

2. Shane was also trying to do the right thing by John Seward and he wasn't the guy who qualified him to fly from Packsaddle.

3. But we've gotta be very careful how we're communicating with people who don't have appropriate and balanced levels of skills and confidence for particular situations and keep them out of environments for which they're inadequately or marginally trained and prepared.

4. I have very little doubt that if Shane had spent all his time en route to Packsaddle coaching John on how not to hit the windsock in the middle of the primary then John would've hit the windsock in the middle of the primary - instead of stalling downwind back into the crane - sorry - MOUNTAIN.

[Bill Cummings]

I recall reading Shane's account how he was coaching John on the way to the flying site, about what to do if flying back toward the hill.

I would really, really, really like to see that account. That's freakin' huge.

From the OZ Report:
Packsaddle accident report

Very thorough 30.619965,-98.505135,Packsaddle+Mountain,+Kingsland,+Llano,+Texas+78639(Packsaddle Mountain, Kingsland, Llano, Texas 78639)

http://ozreport.com/14.125#4

Nestle Shane <<president>> writes:

Here is some of the report submitted to USHPA regarding the death of John Seward at Packsaddle Mountain. It has been re-edited and the last names have been deleted for the sake of privacy.

I had only recently met John Seward several weeks earlier through my interactions with his instructor and through flying at Packsaddle. The first flight of his I witnessed was from the vantage point of the LZ directly below launch, where his flight ended with him coming up short of the LZ and landing in the parking area about 30 feet short of parked vehicles. He had misjudged the penetration rate of the glider and finding himself short of the field, correctly made the decision to quickly lose altitude and land in the clearings around the parking lot rather than risk running into the trees or barbed wire fence looming in front. The following weekend I met him already on the hill waiting for conditions to become right for him to soar. While we waited we discussed the site's flying characteristics and I would quiz him on “what if” scenarios, including what to do if he ever did find himself heading towards the hill. The conditions remained too strong for safe flight that night so we met up before sunrise the next day to try again, but the conditions were still too strong and gusty for safe flight. John recognized the conditions, and while anxious to fly again, did not indicate being overeager.

The next weekend he was assisted off the ramp by a very experienced H4 pilot who pointed out John’s parachute was missing the safety bungee on one of the latches. John made the decision to fly anyway. I was in the LZ at the time and witnessed John making a few passes along the face before coming in for a well executed landing.

On Wednesday, June 26, 2010, I noticed John had posted an e-mail notifying me he would be going out with a couple of other pilots that day - Dan and Nathan. I contacted him and made arrangements to pick him up at his house after he got off work. I was hoping to get some flying in, but figured I would first make sure John was safely launched since the two pilots he was going with are experienced pilots and typically will want to get launched quickly. I picked up John at his house about 5:00 for the 1.5 hours drive to Packsaddle Mountain and we loaded the Wills' Wing Falcon hang glider and pod harness he had borrowed from his instructor (his equipment was on order.) Along the way I once again quizzed him on the right of way rules for the ridge and discussed flying scenarios, and once again we discussed what to do if you find yourself heading towards the ridge. We also discussed stalls and how a glider will respond to a shallow stall versus a steep stall.

Once we arrived we found Nathan was setting up his new glider. Dan showed the hill to his guest, Lori, and then began setting up his glider. John and I setup our gliders and each proceeded through our safety checks. During this time another pilot arrived (Johnny) to fly his remote control planes and watch the other pilots fly. I double checked with John to make sure he had completed a thorough safety check of his wing before moving my glider and harness down to the ramp and securing it in a wind shaded parking area. When I went to check on John’s progress, he was in his harness, hooked into the glider, and working his way from the setup area to the ramp. Frequently pilots will ask for assistance while walking down to the ramp due to part of the path also being a foot launchable area, and thus subject to some strong winds and gusts. As we were in non-gusty, light winds (about 10 MPH), I encouraged him to carry it with no assistance, while I kept my hands near the nose wires in the event he ended up requiring assistance. He had a little difficulty with the handling as the slope is South facing and the winds were SSE to SE, but he managed to get it to the launch area without my assistance.

As I had been informed of the missing parachute bungee by Rich the week before, I had him secure the glider in the wind shadow behind launch and remove his harness so we could correct the issue. Dan rigged a parachute latch bungee out of a small hair band bungee to secure the parachute pin. John then put his camel back into the rear of the bag and ran the hose through the top shoulder tow strap. Once he had put his harness back on and secured it to the glider, we rerouted his hose to a chest loop for easier access. I then personally checked the chute container to make sure the Velcro was properly latched. I also checked the leg straps, the side latches, his harness hang loop latch, and his chin strap. During the inspection of the harness to make sure the lines for opening and closing the harness were properly routed and secured, we discovered one line was completely missing. The other line was properly routed and velcroed in place. He didn't have plans on zipping up anyway, so we considered it a non-issue. We then unfastened the glider and moved out to the beginning of the ramp where we did a hang check and made sure he had plenty of clearance over the bar and his chute was not interfering with his forward movement. Dan and Lori were with us to watch his launch while Nathan and Johnny were up checking out Nathan’s new glider.

All checks being completed we then moved out to the edge of the ramp. He had mentioned earlier that he had felt rushed when he was being helped last week. He also felt like he was being pulled down the ramp by the winds, so he was nervous about being too close to the transition from flat to sloped. Once we got on the ramp I let him feel it out and get accustomed to the wind direction and speed. It was SSE to SE and about 10-15 MPH at the ramp. Very smooth as well. We talked about were the lift band was going to be and that the best lift would be on the SE point. We then went through the launch procedures where I told him I would call "clear" when I was completely out of the way. Because the LZ had hay bales in it, I advised that he should land down in the lowest field that had not been cut or baled, or simply in the clearings directly below launch and before the parking area.

Because he had felt rushed last time, I was cognizant of letting him feel the air and take time to relax. He kept backing away from the edge of the ramp, still feeling the winds were pulling the glider down the ramp. I kept coaxing him back to the edge to help keep his glider at the proper angle of attack for takeoff. After five minutes or so he yelled, “Clear!” I cleared the ramp and responded, “Clear!” His launch was only a couple of steps due to launching nose high. However, he smoothly flew away from the hill as he assumed the prone position. There were no pitch or roll problems at all as he continued straight out at trim speed away from the hill and kicked his feet into the harness.

Once he had his feet in the harness, approximately 4-5 seconds after launching, he began a gentle turn to the left (East). He was, at this point, approximately 150’-200’ away from the hill, with a bank angle around 30 degrees. His turn continued without any significant change in angle until he had reversed course 180 degrees and was heading back at the ramp. (Dan commented later that he felt he had observed John cross controlling the glider during the turn.) At that point he managed to flatten out the turn and appeared to be trying to turn the glider back to the right - back on his intended course, but seeing the ramp and hill rapidly approaching he reacted by pushing out on the glider’s control frame. The glider immediately stalled, with no real altitude gain, and then pitched steeply, nose down, into the brush and rocks below. The glider impacted the hill about 50’ South of the ramp and approximately 30’ in altitude below the ramp. He probably fell around 50’-75’ in all.

Dan and I immediately began making our way down the hill while calling his name to see if he was conscious. When we didn’t hear anything we requested Lori to call 911 and request a helicopter rescue response. Time to victim from ramp was probably less than 45 seconds. As we arrived we heard what sounded like a low moan or gasp. We made our way around the glider which had landed between a couple of short trees or tall shrubs, nose down, tail up and into the wind at about a 45 degree angle from level. The pilot was head down and being fully supported by his hang straps. Above his head, to the right, was a small outcropping of rocks. The glider's down tubes and base tube were intact and appeared undamaged.

There was no movement nor any sign of life from the pilot. We both quickly checked for pulse and breathing and found neither. In order to begin CPR we had to remove his harness from the hang point. As he did not have a hook knife on him, we had to lift his harness strap up enough to disconnect it. During this process we could see a long, severe, bruise formed across the entire length of his upper shoulders. Assuming that he would have a neck or back injury, we secured his head as best we could while we rolled him over on his back next to the glider. We opened his harness, unfastened his helmet strap, and and checked for signs of life once again. Finding none, we began CPR, opting to leave the helmet on and only use chest compressions so as not to risk any further spinal injury (Time was 8:04 PM) We requested Johnny get us a hook knife to cut him out of the harness for when Rescue arrived, as well as send someone down the hill to unlock the gate. Dan and I alternated doing compressions over the next 40 minutes until a paramedic arrived. The paramedics immediately got permission to stop CPR from a doctor via cell phone and did an EKG to confirm no signs of life. At that point the rescue became a recovery. The Life Flight helicopter ended up doing a basket extraction using night vision goggles.

Analysis: From my perspective, the entire accident was pilot error. The problem began when he initiated his turn. Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it’s difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

He managed to level out the glider, but did so on a heading directly back towards the ramp. With the combination of his air speed and the wind speed, the distance between him and the ramp was quickly closing. Even though he had been told numerous times to pull in and continue the turn if ever heading at the hill, it would appear that instinct took over. He pushed out hard on the base tube and induced a full stall. The glider then pitched forward and dove into the hill.

The lack of damage to the glider frame, coupled with the injury observed on his back, would suggest that he impacted the rocks in front of the control bar with no arrest from the glider frame until after impact. He would likely have been in a head down, feet up, position when he contacted the rocks across the top of his back, due to the inertial forces imparted when the glider pitched forward. There was no damage to the helmet and no indication that the helmet had grazed or impacted the rocks in any significant manner.

The left glider down tube was actually bent upon inspection, but very little. The leading edge of the glider shows contact points from the trees scuffing the fabric and is torn from the branches in a couple of places. The nose plate is slightly nicked where it made contact with a rock, but otherwise undamaged. Due to the glider’s location directly under the down wash of the rescue helicopter, it is impossible to know what damage was caused be the wreck and what was caused by the helicopter. Either way, damage to glider appears to be minimal.

We do not currently have access to a log book nor know if he kept one. Pilot likely had less than 10 flights off the hill. I had been informed he had one twenty minute flight off the hill, and this has been corroborated by other pilots. His family also informed me that he had recently returned from Brazil where he had been hang gliding. I completed an American Red Cross course on February, 27, 2010 and was certified in CPR/AED for the Professional Rescuer and the Healthcare Provider. Dan had worked as Ski Patrolman from 1998-2000 and received First Response Training that included CPR, but he was not current.

The funeral was held on Monday, June 28th near where John grew up. The pastor commented that they haven't ever seen the church that full. During the service friends and family had the opportunity to go to the front and share their thoughts and memories of John. There were many jokes and funny stories about him as a kid and as an adult. It was obvious that he was well respected and greatly loved. I am saddened that we will not get the opportunity to know John better, but thankful for that short time I got to spend with him. John was following his passions in life, and although still tragic, John died doing something he loved, and he is respected for that.

Those of you wishing to send cards may send them to:

John and Charlotte Seward
6910 Highway 36
Freeport, TX 77541

Thanks to those of you who have already responded with emails, cards, and calls of support to both your fellow pilots and to John's family. It's wonderful to be part of such a caring organization.

Gregg Ludwig <<GreggLudwig>> sends the USHPA operating limits:

C. Recommended Operating Limitations for Novice Pilots

1. Should exceed these limitations only after thoroughly mastering all required tasks, and after acquiring a full understanding of the potential problems and dangers involved in exceeding these limitations.

2. It is highly recommended that all flights be made under the direct supervision of a USHPA Certified Basic or Advanced Instructor or Observer.

3. Should fly only in smooth winds of 18 mph or less and gusty winds to 11 mph.

4. If foot launching, should launch only on slopes 2:1 to 7:1, where wind is within 25° of being straight up the slope.

5. Should maintain heading within 90° of directly into wind, and within 45° of directly into wind below 60' AGL.

6. Flight speed. Should not attempt to fly slowly when encountering lift, but instead, concentrate on maintaining attitude, heading, and airspeed. Slow flight must be preceded by stall experience 500' from any object.

Discuss "Packsaddle accident report" at the Oz Report forum link»

[TadEareckson]

Oh. I thought he meant something other than / in addition to that - a little more turned-back-toward-the-hill intensive.

Not particularly huge then in this case. So my post wasn't very apropos here. Oh well, hopefully it wasn't a total waste of bandwidth.

Thanks anyhow.

[ZackC]

~100% of newbs/students fly off Lookout Mtn, as instructed, with hands on the downtubes. You've been there, surely you agree.

First, to make sure this is clear, my post was solely to help clarify Tad's position and not to state my own.

Yes, at Lookout students make all their training hill flights and first mountain flights from the uprights. When I learned to fly there I flew the hills in the morning and did tandems (flying prone from the basetube) in the evening. So when I first soloed I had experience flying in both positions and thus never faced having to learn a new position. Until Tad brought this incident up, it never occurred to me that someone could become proficient flying from the uprights but have trouble controlling the glider prone. He may be right, but I'm not an instructor and don't feel qualified to pin John's death on anything at this point.

I'd be willing to bet that John, I know Al also, heard time and again, "lead with your feet".

From Shane's report, John rotated his body. Do you think John did, lead with his feet?

If he was indeed cross controlling, he had to have led with his feet. That's why I hate the expression 'lead with your feet'...I actually think it encourages cross controlling.

Zack, do you ever attempt bank angles ~90*.

No...I like to stay within the placarded operating limitations of my glider. Yes, I'm a wuss.

Zack

[Bob Kuczewski]

I haven't done a detailed study of the accident, but from the accounts read so far, it does seem plausible that he was rotating his body about the CG rather than shifting his body to alter the CG.

If he was indeed cross controlling, he had to have led with his feet. That's why I hate the expression 'lead with your feet'...I actually think it encourages cross controlling.

The unfortunate thing about language is that the same words can produce different mental images in different people. I've found "lead with your feet" to be a good descriptive mnemonic. It's a way of reminding me that my shoulder position over the bar is irrelevant if it's not contributing to a change in my CG. But in someone else's mind, that concept might not be provoked by those same words.

I know this wouldn't be practical for all instructors, but I'll bet someone could rig up something to hang from a rafter or tree branch to show new students how to effectively shift their weight without cross controlling. I'm envisioning a system with some visible feedback to show the student how much they're actually displacing their CG. This might be a good project for anyone who's snowed in for the winter.

[TadEareckson]

...Tad believes John was not adequately trained for the circumstances he was allowed to fly in, resulting in catastrophic consequences.

Let's take another poll... Does ANYBODY - outside, of course, of Nate and Pilgrim - believe John WAS adequately trained for the circumstances he was allowed to fly in, or, for that matter, pretty much any circumstances at all?

Tad believes John died because he had not been taught to fly from the basetube.

This really isn't about what Tad BELIEVES.

Shane Nestle

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it's difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

This is about the assessments of two disinterested pilot eyewitnesses. This is the best evidence we have or ever will, the logic is solid and...

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/10

I see a lot of Reg11 pilots, even H-3, that seem to be unsure of how to turn the glider, and attempting to land at trim.

...doesn't require one to think about zebras, and, as far as I know, not once in the time since publication has ANYONE - including John's instructor - broached the slightest hint of disagreement with the assessments.

Until Tad brought this incident up, it never occurred to me that someone could become proficient flying from the uprights but have trouble controlling the glider prone.

Bill Cummings - 2011/11/05

The next time you go flying get vertical, keep your body straight and see how close you can hold your shins to the base tube. (Good luck with that. Then tell me you have more control over pitch...

1. You can't really ever become proficient flying from the uprights because you're flying a CRIPPLED aircraft in a non certified configuration - and I find it totally DESPICABLE...

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/10

~100% of newbs/students fly off Lookout Mtn, as instructed, with hands on the downtubes. You've been there, surely you agree.

...that these sadistic r*chardheaded "instructors" are forcing the most vulnerable of student pilots off into the most dangerous flights of their careers to date on planes as control compromised as they can get them for the sole purpose of making sure that they will be instantly prepared over the course of the entire twelve hundred foot descent to land using the technique most likely to result in a broken arm or two.

2. If you're truly as proficient flying this crap configuration as this crap configuration will allow, you should be able to INSTANTLY adjust to flying prone, supine, suprone, seated, or standing in the control frame. Making hang gliders go the way you want them to is virtually all about FEEL - just like a skateboard - and you either got it or you don't.

If he was indeed cross controlling, he HAD to have led with his feet. That's why I hate the expression 'lead with your feet'...I actually think it ENCOURAGES cross controlling.

1. Exactly the way:

Preflight, Hangcheck, Know you're hooked in.

is the absolute best thing you can say to someone to precipitate a failure to hook in fatality.

2. Hang gliding culture has gotta stop thinking of hang gliders as weight shift controlled aircraft. That mindset has precipitated such follies and disasters as the "floating crossbar", Donnell Hewett's Skyting "theory", Jeff Roberson's "Lever Link" proposal, and the fatality under discussion and scores of similar incidents with unpleasant outcomes.

-A. Hang gliders are controlled by the pilot pushing or pulling a lever arm assembly - the control frame - forward, backwards, left, or right - which has control wires attached to it.

-B. These wires run to the nose and tail and left and right wings.

-C. When you exert a force on the lever one wire or pair of wires is tensioned while the opposite wire or pair is slackened.

-D. The part of the glider upon which you're pulling will come down while the opposite point will be allowed to go up.

-E. And when your tensioning and slackening the wires running out to the wings, warping very similar to what was going on with the Wright Flyer will occur.

-F. If the pilot's weight is shifted without differential wire tensioning the glider will pitch and/or roll OPPOSITE to what is predicted by the "weight shift" model.

And if this concept can be gotten through to students you're gonna see a lot fewer of them leading with their feet and slamming back into the slope.

And then maybe we can start modeling hang gliding on REAL aviation instead of writing our procedures based upon idiot popularity and opinion polls.

...I like to stay within the placarded operating limitations of my glider.

1. If you regularly land your Sport 2 as described on Page 30 of your owner's manual you're (ironically) regularly going way the hell outside of the placarded operating limitations of your glider.

2. If you fly - free or on tow - in thermal conditions you can find yourself almost instantly involuntarily way the hell outside of the placarded operating limitations of your glider.

3. I've got two pilots - one who likes to stay within the placarded operating limitations of his glider and the other an aerobatics competitor - coming into a nasty situation at a tight LZ. Guess which one I'm gonna have my money on.

Yes, I'm a wuss.

So am I. That's why I don't think I've ever gone beyond ninety. But it's hard to really screw a pooch at ninety up high in smooth air and it doesn't hurt to have a good feel for some of what your glider can do if/when it needs to and how to make it do it.

Keep pushing your comfort level. The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed in war.

[TadEareckson]

I haven't done a detailed study of the accident...

Maybe you should have before making a smartass comment like:

Otto Lilienthal died in a glider accident in 1896. Maybe you should mention that as well?

in response to my concerns about Al's instruction and flight.

The unfortunate thing about language...

We can - and should - dissect the hell out of these sorts of events, especially when we have the rare luxury of seeing an excellent, highly detailed, honest, disinterested report from a qualified eyewitness observer before USHGA gets its filthy evil claws on it. But let's not lose sight of the fundamentals here.

1. That environment was/is inappropriate for someone with less than solid Two skills.

2. Solid ninety degree turning skills are required for a Two.

3. John undeniably didn't have them.

4. Yet he was signed off as a Two, OKed for going into waters way over his head, and didn't last long in them.

So let's start dealing with that before we get too involved with simulators.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Tad,

I'm ignoring most of what you've written because I predict a never-ending and non-productive result if I were to reply (whether I agree with you or not). But I will address this:

4. Yet he was signed off as a Two, OKed for going into waters way over his head, and didn't last long in them.

So let's start dealing with that before we get too involved with simulators.

If you're talking about "that" being what happened in this particular case, then you'll have to take that up with USHPA since they have issued all current pilot and instructor ratings.

But if you're interested in working to keep it from happening in the future, then that will involve better ways of conveying simple laws of physics so that they become natural responses to new pilots who may not have a physics background. Most people learn best from experience. I learned to ride a bicycle in grade school, but I needed 3 quarters of calculus and a couple quarters of physics before I understood how it works mathematically. And if I were to get on a bicycle today, I'd have a lot more faith in my ability to apply what I learned from direct experience than in my ability to "do the math" in real time. So suggesting ideas like simulators to convey what it feels like to properly shift your weight isn't such a bad idea. If you want to argue that for 10 pages, I'll take you on any time.

Until then, I think I'm going to start a new topic about building a simple simulator to demonstrate weight shift. Please join me if you've got any positive ideas to contribute. Thanks.

[TadEareckson]

If you're talking about "that" being what happened in this particular case, then you'll have to take that up with USHPA since they have issued all current pilot and instructor ratings.

1. I'm NEVER AGAIN gonna waste another keystroke taking anything up with USHPA.

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29

It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it.

That's how those bastards need to be dealt with and I hope I live long enough to help make it happen.

2. These are the pilot and instructor ratings you're talking about accepting into US Hawks - no questions asked.

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/10

I see a lot of Reg11 pilots, even H-3, that seem to be unsure of how to turn the glider, and attempting to land at trim.

3. Sam says the folk in his neck of the woods can't turn or land and Martin Apopot and B Asher have proven that they can't reliably figure out how to get airborne with their gliders.

So suggesting ideas like simulators to convey what it feels like to properly shift your weight isn't such a bad idea.

1. I love the idea of simulators. The more the merrier. I keep bugging my nephew to do on the computer whatever he can before he actually starts getting off the ground.

One of the most valuable experiences I ever had in one of my first days of lessons came from volunteering to haul the trainer back to the shop and running across the dunes into the wind and controlling the turns. Boy did I cheat Kitty Hawk Kites and my classmates out of a lot of quality safe simulated airtime.

2. I'm not so keen on the weight shift concept 'cause it's not a good way to understand what's going on and it doesn't seem to be working very well in either Sam's or my USHPA region.

3. The concept of differential wire tension ain't rocket science. A Hang One can watch his nose wires go slack when he pushes out on the bar.

4. I don't imagine a Cessna student has much trouble figuring out how the control cables going back to the elevator and rudder work either.

5. It's dangerous for tow students not to understand the differential wire tension issue because tow "instructors" are still telling them that if they get turned away from the tug the towline tension will pull them under the forward/high wing and bring them back in line. And they're gonna be in for big unpleasant surprises if they swallow that crap.

[SamKellner]

If he was indeed cross controlling, he had to have led with his feet. That's why I hate the expression 'lead with your feet'...I actually think it encourages cross controlling.

That is what I'm saying, too. As Bob said, it works on some students. But yes, IMO, largely promotes cross control. And i feel that's why Al was worried about turning, he'd been leading with his feet, and not having good results.

The way I tried to help Al was suggesting a technique that included pitch input along with roll input. I learned the instruction technique from several of the world class HG instructors that repeatedly attended the TexasOpen.