[Bill Cummings]

Looks like some of the pilots posting at the OZ Report are starting to see the light with the way the USHPA is running things.

For those that aren't able to get past the password here is an attempt (Copy/Paste) of what I'm reading (with a little clean up from our moderator).

The Oz Report
World Wide Hang Gliding Discussion Group

Post Small Instructor Support Program
by The Oz Report Mon, Feb 20 2017, 6:20:13 am

From the Foundation for Free Flight

http://www.ushgf.org/2017FFFISP.html

As a result of the new RRG Insurance program adopted by USHPA this year USHPA, PASA, and FFF have seen an adverse effect developing in free flight sport. Small, quality schools for free flight instruction typically run by one instructor schools are being impacted by the RRG implementation that threatens their capacity and drive to remain free flight instructors and keep their schools open.

As a supporter and partner in the RRG insurance movement, the FFF is interested in developing a instructor support program to assist helping struggling solo hang gliding and paragliding instructors. It's goal is to maintain a small instructor friendly environment and encourage solo instructors and small schools to participate in the USHPA's RRG insurance program in 2017 despite its operational procedures and costs that are now being put on them.

1. The program would pay out $500 to qualified USHPA instructors starting as soon as possible after February or March 2017.

2. Small USHPA schools or solo instructors must be certified by PASA and applying but not necessarily yet accepted by the USHPA's RRG insurance program to qualify for FFF grants.

3. Grants will be awarded from the FFF Safety and Ed Fund, which is one of the CORE funds in the FFF.

4. The FFF will payout a maximum of $33,000 toward this program in 2017. Actual payout totals will be based on numbers of applicants and financial need.

5. Instructors will be asked submit new FFF grant request form for this program that provides FFF with information about their eligibility and need. This program description and the new grant application form will be available on the FFF website in February. Grant request submissions are to be sent to the FFF Executive Director where they will be forwarded to the FFF Grant Committee for review.

6. Decisions to award or not to award will be at the discretion of FFF Grant Committee, which oversees FFF grant requests and finally voted on by the FFF Board.

PROGRAM FUNDING APPROACH:

Flat $500 Award Model:

A flat $500 award to any qualified instructor or small school that applies. This covers an instructor's or small school's $300 PASA application fee plus and additional $200 of additional funding for other various expenses they have.

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 10:08:22 am
WOW, this is COOL!

Way to DO something about the issue rather than just complain about it.

What are the annual certification/insurance costs that a solo instructor school has?

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 10:45:29 am

As a supporter and partner in the RRG insurance movement, the FFF is interested in developing a instructor support program to assist helping struggling solo hang gliding and paragliding instructors. It's goal is to maintain a small instructor friendly environment and encourage solo instructors and small schools to participate in the USHPA's RRG insurance program in 2017 despite its operational procedures and costs that are now being put on them.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... 811#392811

RRRG.

Please, let's get this right for once.

At least we could come to an agreement on one thing.

This does not bode well. As a supporter, partner and apparent founder, they still don't know the name.

https://recreationrrg.com/rrrg-our-story

Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. was formed in 2016 by the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc., The Foundation for Free Flight, The Professional Air Sports Association, and several Hang Gliding and Paragliding Flight Schools, to protect free flight everywhere.

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 12:18:29 pm

…This covers an instructor's or small school's $300 PASA application fee plus and additional $200 of additional funding for other various expenses they have.

so is the $300 app fee on top of the insurance costs on this chart?

BTW - the teaching days calculation is not straight forward as it counts the higher of students per day or number of days up to a limit. so if you have 4 students, in one day its 4 days, if you have one student 4 days, its 4 days. - fully explained here - http://www.pasaschools.org/small-school-info/

PASA_SBFS_DUES_MATRIX_800.jpg (115.34 KiB) Viewed 1952 times

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 5:36:04 pm
I totally support this…

…but the fact is, the GOOD, lone wolf instructor will pass on this as well and just stick with what "we've" done all along. Learn from a good, local pilot via barter and love of the sport and maybe a little dough. It's the only way free flight has survived around here for decades. Hasn't killed anyone yet… Twisted Evil Actually seems to be helping of late. YMMV.

Cool
Jim

Tow me up. I'll find my way down

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 6:28:55 pm
Also I'm unclear about:

PASA on its info page indicates its small business program is to facilitate/provide insurance for schools for which it is not economically feasible to go direct to the RRRG.

On the info page from this FFF grant on "how it works" they have this statement which indicates applicants would be applying to the RRRG…which seems counter to the PASA small school objective.

2. Small USHPA schools or solo instructors must be certified by PASA and applying but not
necessarily yet accepted by the USHPA’s RRRG insurance program to qualify for FFF grants.

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:00:09 pm

In the 80s and 90s, I ran a small hang gliding school at Warren Dunes, Michigan. Just me, teaching on a sand dune, max of 6 students a day, sometimes just one. From what I can make of this chart, which is not the easiest to figure, I would never have been able to afford, let alone make a profit from, teaching at those volumes, even with that $500 "grant".

35 years ago, I learned to fly from a one person hang gliding school. Many areas of this country that are great for flying cannot support a big school. The RRRG may help us in the short run, but it's cost on instruction may kill hang gliding in the long term.

I have from time to time scared myself. Even at the height of my powers, I was not in good health. But a furious metabolism preserves my physique, and I am considered a tribute to evil living. - Thomas McGuane, Panama

Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:56:17 pm

What are the annual certification/insurance costs that a solo instructor school has?

Bump…

If I wanted to get into the HG instruction business, what would I be looking at as annual costs?

Wed, Feb 22 2017, 7:50:45 pm

An instructor I know told me it would cost him $1800 to meet PASA and RRRG requirements.

Like RM said:

Hang gliding isn't dying out it's being murdered!

[Rick Masters]

Why would a lone wolf hang gliding instructor even want to be involved with the USHPA?
Involvement with USHPA destroys any financial incentive.
And the FFF dilutes any assistance it could provide to hang gliding with support for paragliding.
So what slice of that $33,000 would go to paragliding? $29,000 or the like, I'd think.
Murder or suicide, the victim's still dead.

NOTE: My friends taught me to fly for free.
All my money went for equipment.
If I had it to do over again, I would definitely go that route.
All this external crap reminds me of Obamacare.
The old ways worked better.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Joe Greblo posted this:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44009&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=53

20766430015660c8279645c.jpg (11.08 KiB) Viewed 4106 times

The Most Important Man in Hang Gliding

My thoughts on growing our sport take me in a different direction than asking how do we better promote our sport.

It could be argued that the most important man in the development of our sport is John Harris of Kitty Hawk Kites. Year after year he encourages and trains many young, goal oriented hang gliding instructors. He has single handedly produced more instructors in the last 40 years than the rest of the world combined. Many of the america's largest hg school owners began as instructors at Kitty Hawk Kites.

Even so, few of these young, new instructors choose to establish careers in hang gliding. Why? And if they don't, who will? 

The primary reasons for a shrinking hang gliding population are a reduction of both instructor talent and entrepreneurial economic opportunity.

Today there is little economic entrepreneurial opportunity in the hang gliding industry. For any person to consider a career as a hang gliding instructor, he/she would have to see a reason to invest time and money here, rather than some other other potential career. 

1. Over the years, more and more hang gliding schools and instructors have thrown in the towel and are not being replaced by new instructors. This means less and less effort, less and less capital expenditure, and less and less promotion is being directed towards getting students into our sport. We are past the "tipping point" on this downward spiral in new participation in hang gliding.

2. The average age of a hang gliding student is over 30. The average age of a hg pilot is well over 40. Most everyone in these age brackets that can afford the initial high costs of hang gliding, already has a job or career they are unwilling to give up for a risky, non-lucrative career in hang gliding. In addition, those in this age bracket are more likely to have already developed financial assets they are unwilling to risk with the potential accident liability in our sport. 

3. High school and college aged men and women generally can't afford thousands of dollars needed to learn to hg and purchase their gear, so we have a very small pool of potential entrepreneur instructors.

4. Training sites near large population bases are few and far between, further reducing entrepreneurial opportunity.

5. Already trained hang glider pilots have little incentive to promote or support hang gliding schools as these pilots find the instructional process is no longer necessary, and online equipment suppliers lacking the overhead associated with a school, can offer products at lower prices.

The million dollar question…what needs to be done?

At least the following 2 problems must be solved if we are have any significant effect on the future growth of our sport.

1. Find a way to reduce the cost of hang gliding training for high school and college students as they are the only ones likely to invest in hang gliding as a business opportunity.

2. Create entrepreneurial opportunities for young, goal oriented pilots to become flight instructors and school owners.

Although difficult and daunting, solutions are possible; but only if we recognize and confront the above obstacles and stop trying to resuscitate a dying system that lacks a foundation of talent and economic opportunity. 

While all the traditional, promotional efforts obviously have some merit, I believe new efforts need to focus on developing opportune business environments by subsidizing the cost of training of young pilots, and acquiring new training sites and flying sites. Those with experience and talents at fundraising and writing grant requests of industry and government are truly needed, as are those with interest and experience finding and opening new training sites. Schools and instructors should consider lowering their training rates for teens, serious about learning, as parents can't afford the high costs of instruction and equipment. This would also provide incentive for aerospace and other industries and governments to award grant moneys towards low cost training programs for the young.

A hang gliding school in southern California has experimented and had some success with 1/2 price lessons for teenagers that make strong commitments towards learning. 

Let me close by saying that I believe there is no greater need in the future of our sport than this one as I'm one who's close to retiring and see no one coming to take over my role as a producer of new pilots.

Joe's post was followed by another of Harry Martin's clever cartoons:

father_and_son_204.png (235.63 KiB) Viewed 4106 times

I think Harry's cartoon makes a valid point and speaks for itself. So I'd like to focus some attention on Joe Greblo's post.

Joe's post makes the assumption that paid instruction is the only path to growth in hang gliding. But is that really true? Let's examine the growth of hang gliding throughout its history and compare that with the codification of professional instruction.

It's my understanding (backed up by Bill Bennett's own testimony in "Big Blue Sky") that early "instruction" was friends teaching friends. That's the dynamic that can make a sport "go viral" as it did in the 70's. Hang gliding in those days spread by the very human excitement of sharing it with friends. The barrier to entry was very low. Contrast that with the bureaucratic system we have today where pilot to pilot instruction is so frowned upon that It's almost considered a criminal activity at some flying sites.

The best example I have from recent memory is the great pilot to pilot mentoring by the good volunteers (like Bill Cummings and Robin Hastings) in the RGSA (Rio Grande Soaring Association). I've personally witnessed new students being carefully guided by their senior pilots week after week. They do a fantastic job and they do it for the love of the sport. When they teach, they're not on any ticking time clock to make so much money per hour. And similarly, the students don't feel the need to 'get through it" as fast as possible to save the cost of yet another lesson. The pace is set by progress without money entering the picture.

It reminds me of how I learned to swim and to ride a bicycle. Both are dangerous activities, but I learned them both without any paid instruction (as well as skiing, sailing, fishing, snowboarding, driving, windsurfing, kite boarding, water skiing, surfing, checkers, chess, tennis, and ping pong). What do you think would happen to bicycle participation and sales if learning to ride a bicycle took even one tenth of the professional instruction that USHPA pushes on hang gliding students?

Now I can already hear the cries of horror: "Oh my God! Unpaid and unprofessional instruction? Oh the carnage! Oh the humanity!" Could it be any worse than the "professional" instruction/oversight that we've seen at Torrey Pines? They are routinely in the local news for accidents and deaths. Many of those accidents and deaths have been due to the overcrowding brought on by their business need to keep pushing new pilots through their "guppy mill". Furthermore, the so called "professional" instructors are often just regular pilots who want to make a buck while getting to fly. They are not the self-selected mentors who give their time for the love of the sport or the satisfaction of passing on their knowledge. There's a big difference and it does not favor the "professional" instruction model.

But here's the big question. Is the "professional" training model even sustainable? You could probably mandate professional bicycle instruction for every child and still have a thriving (though greatly diminished) bicycle market. Nearly every town (or county) would have enough business to support at least one "professional" bicycle instructor. But could you do that for, say, the sport of curling? How many towns would have enough people willing to spend money to support even one full time curling instructor? Doesn't that sound EXACTLY like what we're facing in hang gliding? And yet, rather than working to make instructing LESS burdensome, USHPA is doing the exact opposite by raising the bar and making it more difficult for people like Bill and the RGSA to turn out new "USHPA" pilots.

In conclusion, Joe Greblo's analysis is flawed because it's based on the assumption that growing hang gliding requires more support of professional instructors. That's not supported by the historical evidence, and it's not supported in comparison with other recreational activities. Indeed, USHPA's continued focus on the profits of their business owners has done the greatest harm to the sport (loss of observers, barriers to entry, loss of part-time instructors, etc). This needs to be reversed to reverse the decline. The efforts by Bill Cummings and the RGSA are in the right direction. The efforts of Joe Faust and the USHGRS are in the right direction. And the efforts of everyone who supports fairness and openness through the US Hawks are in the right direction.

Please feel free to quote this post anywhere that you can mention "U.S. Hawks" without getting censored (which is the other thing killing the sport of hang gliding).

[Bob Kuczewski]

This topic was started in September of 2015, which was about 4 years before the "Best Plan to Save Sport of Hang Gliding" topic (which was started in July of 2019).

In my opening post to this topic, I quoted a number of posts from the Oz Forum including several by Mark Forbes. I also included my post in reply to Mark Forbes:

Read Mark Forbes responses again. Read them critically. Mark Forbes has been one of the 4 members of USHPA's Executive Committee for as long as I can remember. Read his comments and ask yourself where's the part where he says "Here's how we're going to turn this around …"

It's not there. It's not there because USHPA isn't dedicated to hang gliding. If USHPA were USHGA and if paragliding were in another organization, USHGA would be strategizing on how to save the sport of hang gliding. They'd be desperately competing to grow the sport rather than shrugging their Mark Forbes shoulders with excuses.

Torrey Pines has been the "canary in the coal mine" when it comes to the decline of hang gliding. Look at how USHPA has handled that situation and you'll see the future of hang gliding. The Torrey Hawks have worked tirelessly for years to grow hang gliding at that site, and USHPA has stabbed us in the back at every turn - every single turn.

When it comes to insurance, the insurance industry depends on USHPA to fix problems before they become claims. USHPA (and Mark Forbes himself) knew about the problems at Torrey for years and did nothing to fix them because they didn't want to rock their PG buddy's apple cart. Instead of fixing the problems, they shot the messenger. How sustainable is that strategy Mark?

Mark Forbes blames the insurance company for the loss of Special Observers. Some day he'll blame the insurance company for the loss of hang gliding altogether. That's the future of hang gliding protected by USHPA. Hang gliding deserves better than being a second class citizen in the national association that's supposed to be there to protect it.

Davis, this needed to be said.

Of course Davis didn't like it, and he deleted my entire post as if it never existed (poof). Mark Forbes never had to answer my sustainability question, and hang gliding continued its downward spiral. After all, you can't criticize USHPA on the Oz Forum in a topic titled "Why there isn't any growth in hang gliding". 

Some people (you know who you are) have been critical of my own criticism of Jack Axaopoulos and Davis Straub for their bans and their censorship. But I again assert that good communication within the sport of hang gliding is one of the crucial components of any effort to save the sport:

1. Hang gliding needs an association dedicated to hang gliding.
2. The hang gliding community cannot continue to allow their communication channels to be controlled by Jack and Davis.
3. Hang gliding must start using the Recreational Use Statutes in every state.
4. Hang gliding must be shared friend to friend as it was in the beginning.

The bans and tight control of "political" speech on hanggliding.org and ozreport.com are contributing to the  death  murder of hang gliding. People who support those sites are unwitting (or intentional?) accomplices in that murder.

I have to say it's very satisfying to look back into the history of the U.S. Hawks and see how long we have been on the right side of so many issues.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the rich history of this site. 

[eagle]

USHPA is a school that No one ever graduates from.
THE USHPA turned recreational pilots into cash cows to pay for their failing business

~ Keeping the free public paying their insurance bills ~

Yup , Again this is the kind of crap recreational pilots are putting up with....
Torrey Pines Gliderport just rips off the Public By force of contract to pay their bills
A racketeering operation that's blocking public access, by straight up thuggery, and threat or arrest.
The Para Thug wants free money demanding and expect zero overhead cost or liabilities.

INSURANCE THUGGERY

"Extortion By Force of Public Contract"

Para Thug.png (58.07 KiB) Viewed 1945 times

[Craig Muhonen]

"Let them forge their own path" written by RM so long ago.
"We can point fingers all day (and with some validity) but the sad truth as to why hang gliding is losing participation is that
the majority of today's generation of people who want to fly are are stupid and lazy.
Look at this.
American adults get a D in science; 22% confuse astronomy and astrology.
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencen ... story.html

These people don't even recognize the importance of science, anymore. To them, an uninformed opinion is just as or even more relevant than one based on scientific evidence. It's unbelievable. It's shameful. The fact that this could even happen in our country is a much more important subject than anything to do with hang gliding!
I seriously doubt one in 50 soaring parachutists could explain how a hang glider can take greater advantage of the Bernoulli Effect than their pathetic, fickle, low-performing parachutes or why an airframe is even important.

Image

I have had hang glider pilots come to me, years later, and thank me for saving their lives by teaching them cross-country skills for surviving the Big Air. These were men who had gown to be real pilots and I was humbled and grateful for their words.
But what today's lazy and stupid wanna-be pilots want is only instant gratification.
They want to fly now. That's all. That is the most important thing to them. They don't care about the details. It is unbelievable.
They don't even care about the deaths!

Mythology of the Airframe -- A Plague of Paragliders (archived May 21, 2012, incomplete)
Image
https://web.archive.org/web/20120502132 ... lones.com/

They don't want to listen to or consider why it may be a bad idea to encounter normal atmospheric turbulence while hanging onto laundry. It's way too complicated for their tiny, stupid, lazy brains.
To squeeze out these uncomfortable thoughts, they join together to demonize any critics. The more experienced - or in my opinion, only lucky - unite in preventing their fellow soaring parachutists from hearing the truth. Even hang glider pilots - and much worse, even their forum principals and "moderators" who have swallowed the Kool Aid, a bizarre, invalid and incomprehensible form of political correctness in relation to parachutes - join with soaring parachutists in their agenda to spread lies and stifle dissent.
To them, the honest critics are the problem, not the deadly laundry they imagine as aircraft.
They don't get it when a mutant organization that stands to make a lot of money off their folly says, "Follow me. Right this way."
There have always been people like this. This type of pilot was a plague to the new sport of hang gliding during the first 15 years.
They didn't understand or care to understand the new principals of micro-meteorology we free-flight hang glider were discovering. As soon as ultralights came along, they disappeared from hang gliding.
They were motorcyclists on powered hang gliders and they killed themselves in droves.
Then along came paragliding and now it has it sucked off the same types. This was a good thing for hang gliding. We don't need nor really even want them in hang gliding.
Yes, the few who want to excel - those who finally figured out that they made a mistake by at first choosing parachutes over real aircraft - should be welcomed into the sport.
But the rest of them can go on to the "reward" of a paraglider's limp or burial. It's not our fault. We get to watch. That's all. They're never going to listen or understand. They don't get it. There's nothing we can do.
Yet, there is a severe consequence for hang gliding when it is represented by a parachuting organization.
We lose. In exchange for nothing, we share all the ugly baggage that comes with paragliding: collapse, cravats, spiral dives.
Why would we do that?
Worse, while we struggle, we have turncoats who lie about the safety of paragliding. This causes potential hang glider pilots to turn away from our sport:

The reason people are gravitating to the PG is obvious ; the PG is safer . Just look at the stats for number of recent deaths , and you see that more people died this year on a HG , than the PG . Bring it ON !!!

I can provide you with over 160 global paraglider fatalities over the past 18 months. Neither sport is safe but hang glider pilots kill themselves with pilot error while paraglider pilots die when their paragliders kill them by losing their airfoil shape and going out of control to impact. We hang glider pilots, in the past, with the help of a national organization that cared about us, addressed pilot error and produced several years of ZERO hang gliding fatalities.
Those days are over. We no longer have a national organization dedicated to hang gliding.
Meanwhile, paragliding deaths are clearly random. "Expert" or novice, it doesn't seem to make any difference. There is nothing that can be done - and certainly not by hang glider pilots. Since 2000, there have never been fewer deaths globally in paragliding than 50! That was the lowest to date - going all the way back to 2000.
Today, the U.S. association mixes in both hang gliding and paragliding fatalities and reports them as free-flight fatalities. None of you hang glider pilots can ever hope to make a difference - no matter what you do in terms of safety and skill - because paragliding dominates free-flight fatalities.
Paragliding is a slaughter regardless what some clueless idiots who ignore international news might say.
This is why it is so important for hang glider pilots to form a national hang gliding organization in the Untied States NOW.
We should not beat ourselves up over the dwindling numbers of hang gliding participants.
Paragliding is like alcoholism. But that doesn't make it better or offer an excuse for endemic collapse in turbulence.
Despite all the valid arguments we can make, we need to forget about paragliding.
Hang gliding is our sport.
All we need is a national organization that supports hang gliding and it will grow.
Forget paragliding. Let them forge their own path without us.

If only fifty hang glider pilots will demonstrate the courage of BobK, it will happen".
Rick Masters
======================================================================================================================================================================================



.

[Bob Kuczewski]

"Let them forge their own path" written by RM so long ago.

We can point fingers all day ...
   :
If only fifty hang glider pilots will demonstrate the courage of BobK, it will happen".
Rick Masters

Thanks Craig and Rick.

This topic was started in 2015 based on a post on the Oz Forum (see my first post to this topic). In a more recent Oz Forum topic, Col.r posted this picture:

Modified_Oz.png (259.84 KiB) Viewed 1896 times

Just yesterday (Feb 26 2022), David Williamson posted:

The P/Gs may be opening up new sites all over the place but round here they have taken at least three sites from the hangliders (one of which held the British championships, BITD). They have been able to afford to pay for the sites for commercial use and hangliding is no longer allowed, just P/G training. Can you still hanglide at Torrey?

To answer David, yes, you can still hang glide at Torrey, but it's getting more and more difficult. USHPA never supported the Torrey Hawks hang gliding club because we've tried to protect hang gliding at Torrey since 2007. In 2009, USHPA refused to issue the site insurance purchased by the Torrey Hawks, and in 2015, USHPA refused to renew the Torrey Hawks chapter status altogether.

Of course, I can't answer David on the Oz Forum because Davis Straub banned me when I asked some tough questions during a USHPA Regional Director election. The destruction of hang gliding communication channels by Davis Straub (ozreport.com) and Jack Axaopoulos (hanggliding.org) continues to contribute to the decline of hang gliding.

[Craig Muhonen]

Rick Masters wrote:
We can point fingers all day ...
:
If only fifty hang glider pilots will demonstrate the courage of BobK, it will happen".
Rick Masters
===============================================================================================================================================================================================
Courage;
The ability to do something that frightens one.
Strength in the face of pain or grief.
===============================================================================================================================================================================================
My "Hang Gliding community" is rooted on a river in Australia 1968, at Torrance beach 1970, Telluride 1971, and US HAWKS 2019, not as a Hang Glider Pilot, but just as a reader and observer and some times roadie, and mostly plumber. The evolution is beautifully laid out in videography, and fantastic written words, for all to see any time they want, and all the "ups and downs", but it sits in isolation and is fragmented.
A new "Super Web Site" is desperately needed to organize videographers and writers and pilots (and a lawyer or two) into one "courageous", cohesive group, but not in a forum type platform. The supporters of Hang Gliding are out there, but I think it's going to be a "direct mail" campaign to find those 50 that Rick talked about, then from there something could be built to counter act the "insurance scam" that PG is, and give folks a viable alternative, because right now "forums" don't provide that. Siting down and writing a great and passionate "form letter" and mailing (not in email) it out to the "courageous 50" shouldn't be that difficult, but what else can be done at this late stage?

The evolution of modern "Paragliding" took a different path. For "free flying" ideological reasons, they had to get their foot in the door at previously Master Hang Gliding (H4) sites all across the country and the world. In rapid succession, USHGA (small company) became USHPA (large company) with totally different nomenclature, "club membership", and insurance. (and wings)
It was a hostile take over as such, and Conservative Hang Glider Pilots didn't catch on until very late in the game, but what was done was done. In 2010 Bob and a few friends brought US HAWKS into being, as a forum to counter the "P" that was added to USHGA and the "G" that was taken out. How dare the word glider was taken out, and it took courage to do that, but I got to hand it to them, they pulled it off and the rest is history. This a perfect example of how the word HG has been thoroughly co-oped by PG, and how dare they say the word "glider", when the collapsable canope' they "sit" under is just a lazy "floater", and just a way to make money and take selfies.
There are allot of "watchers" out there who would subvert any effort to "organize" Hang Gliding, or Air Framed Flexible Winged Gliders, Web Site, so private messaging and signed hand written letters can show the way. what a concept a hand written letter to a friend.
My humble H0 opinion.
C:+o)

[Bob Kuczewski]

US HAWKS ... The evolution is beautifully laid out in videography, and fantastic written words, for all to see any time they want, and all the "ups and downs", but it sits in isolation and is fragmented.
A new "Super Web Site" is desperately needed to organize videographers and writers and pilots (and a lawyer or two) into one "courageous", cohesive group, but not in a forum type platform.

I don't think it's a problem with the forum format. For example, take a look at
this topic on paraglidingforum.com. Here are the posts in just that one topic today:

Post subject: Delta 4 problem with XR7

Author: amirmq
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:19 UTC

Author: SAPurdie 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:05 UTC

Author: mm 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 15:18 UTC

Author: amirmq
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 16:40 UTC

Author: BrunoD 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 17:12 UTC

Author: mm 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 18:05 UTC

Author: SAPurdie 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 18:18 UTC

Author: davidcassar 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 19:15 UTC

Author: firemandave 
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 19:55 UTC

That was just one topic today. Take a look and see how many active topics they have on any given day.

So no, it's not the forum format that's the problem. It's the particular people who have control of the major forums in the sport of hang gliding. It's the suicidal selfishness of Jack Axaopoulos and Davis Straub that's helping to murder the sport of hang gliding. Ask Joe or Rick how the paragliding folks stick together against any "outsiders" who speak up on their forum. Contrast that with the destructive divisions created by Jack Axaopoulos and Davis Straub.

Combine that problem with too many people afraid to speak up and with too many people with fragile egos, and you have the death of hang gliding.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Today, in the Free Speech Zone Craig posted:

U Should Happily Parachute Away
USHPA
=============================================================================================================================
Rick Masters wrote, Aug. 14, 2018;
"Taking God out of the Constitution is a method the State can pursue in order to make itself - and not an unassailable entity - the ultimate arbitrator over citizens' rights.
This strategy, which is an ongoing attack by those without a moral compass to seize control over every facet of our lives, is eerrily familiar in the increasingly tyranical philosophy of the USHPA.
That is, the inherent right of a man to fly that is designated in law, is being undermined by the very ones entrusted to preserve it - the treatment of Bob Kuczewski being a particularly flagrant example."
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Craig's quote was from the first post of that topic started by Rick Masters on August 14th, 2018. Rick started that topic with a quote posted by Mark Forbes on hanggliding.org. Here's the first part of Rick's post:

I was stunned by the ignorance of this poster from Hanggliding.org:

Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:41 pm
Not to mention the fact that the "under god" thing was put in during the red scare of the late '50s, when "godless communism" was a thing the congresscritters were afraid of. It's nothing to do with the founders of our republic. In fact, the whole pledge is an early 20th century invention by moralist types.
        -- Mark G. Forbes, USHPA Treasurer
            http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=404214#p404214

The truth is, our founding fathers believed the inclusion of "natural rights bestowed upon Man by God" was vital to the foundational documents of the United States of America. ...

Rick concluded his post with this passage as quoted by Craig:

Taking God out of the Constitution is a method the State can pursue in order to make itself - and not an unassailable entity - the ultimate arbitrator over citizens' rights.
    This strategy, which is an ongoing attack by those without a moral compass to seize control over every facet of our lives, is eerrily familiar in the increasingly tyranical philosophy of the USHPA.
    That is, the inherent right of a man to fly that is designated in law, is being undermined by the very ones entrusted to preserve it - the treatment of Bob Kuczewski being a particularly flagrant example.

You can find Mark Forbes' post in a locked topic on hanggliding.org started by Mike Jefferson. Here's part of Mike's original post:

The USHPA and its charter clubs are killing the sport of hang gliding. Their goal is to protect the USHPA and not the pilots.

Last year I found an alternative insurance plan that meets the needs of my local government owned hang gliding site and I am now teaching and giving tandem discovery flights there with out the USHPA and my local clubs permission. Since I did this I have been brought down to a hang 2 rating and my USHPA teaching and tandem ratings have been pulled.

Read more: http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35916

Mike's post was one of the most important in the sport. Mike had actually found alternative insurance, but the topic was locked by Jack Axaopoulos where it could sink out of sight.

So what's my point?

My point is that the division of hang gliding into little internet fifedoms makes this kind of information very difficult to assemble and digest. Frank claims that hanggliding.org is a place somehow free of politics. But that's simply not true. It's just free of the politics that Jack Axaopoulos doesn't like. That particular topic started by Mike Jefferson was eventually locked and buried because it wasn't what Jack wanted to promote. This is not harmless to the sport of hang gliding.