The US Hawks should:

[Bob Kuczewski]

Tad, I'm becoming more and more convinced that you either never knew or have forgotten what it's like to foot launch in difficult conditions.

You seem to be forgetting that having one's shoulders on the downtubes with one's arms wrapped around them provides an ability to control pitch that you don't have when standing with a tight hang strap. I can stand in that former configuration and drop the nose practically to the ground. You can't do that when standing with a tight hang strap because the base bar is restricted by your legs and the glider is flying further behind you than when you're flying upright in the air. This is because you're the "boat anchor" that's holding the glider from moving backward. That positions the glider significantly further behind you than when you're hanging straight down in free flight. So if you have concerns about being able to pull in the bar when you're upright in free flight (and dangling straight below the hang point), how much worse will it be when the glider is now behind you and your hang strap is angled backward?

You're also forgetting that with your arms tightly controlling the downtubes, you have an ability to directly control the pitch through your upper arms and shoulders. You can also more quickly get the base tube to the ground if you need to do so. These are all much more difficult if you've got the glider flying at full leash length up and behind you.

Look, I'm not just relying on my opinion here. I've asked some of the experts and they have advised me that performing a "lift-and-tug" in difficult conditions can introduce significant risk to the pilot's safety. Until you can PROVE otherwise, you're just voicing what I would consider to be an uneducated opinion.

But more than that, I think you're being dishonest. I believe you KNOW that letting the glider ride up in difficult conditions increases the danger. So if you wanted to study the tradeoff between that additional risk exposure versus statistical FTHI benefits, then I might respect that discussion. But you have flat-out refused to admit that there's any increased exposure to risk by doing a lift and tug at launch in difficult conditions. I'm sorry, but that's where you've lost your credibility with me.

How 'bout this:

"With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch."

Again, maybe you don't remember, but this is unenforcible unless you define "just prior" which you haven't. Who gets to decide what "just prior" means?

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically and safely do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

which was my intent anyway. By "physically" I didn't mean heroic and stupid efforts.

OK, who decides whether it can be "safely" done or not? If a pilot chooses to NOT do a lift-and-tug because they feel it's not safe, then who makes the determination that they could have done it safely?

"*IF* the pilot BELIEVES" opens up an insanely large can of totally lunatic worms and INSTANTLY renders ANY regulation, SOP, or guideline a total waste of the paper on which it's printed. And we've got way too much opinion based crap poisoning this sport and killing people as it is.

It's called "personal responsibility". This is where your desire for a "nanny state" is going to get good pilots killed because they're forced to follow a regulation that removes their own judgement in the matter. The "pilot believes" clause (that you hate so much) is all about personal responsibility commensurate with the rating that's been earned.

I'm pretty damn happy with the current USHPA regulation just as it is. One of the rare instances where the organization actually got something mostly right. But, of course, that's pretty ancient history. The problem was never the wording - the problem was that there was never the SLIGHTEST effort to implement or enforce it on the part of the hang gliding establishment.

We've been over that. It can't be enforced because the wording is too vague to be enforcible.

Tad, are you on board with what Bill has written?

See above. I'd rather see nothing put down at all than a mockery being made of a solid safety rule or practice by having it contingent upon the BELIEF system of the individual "pilot".

Great, then maybe we don't have to hear any more about mandating "lift and tug". How about if we go with the current regulation and add the qualifier that "'Just prior' is defined to be the last moment in time when the pilot determines they can safely verify their hook-in status." ?

[Bill Cummings]

“Bill C,
This pilot had a tight hang strap and was holding in as best he could.

“Tad E,
Would this pilot have been able to hold in any better with a loose strap?
BILL C, RESPONSE (BCR) I’M SURE, WITH THE DOWN TUBES ON THE SHOULDERS, YES! (FOR THE REASONS POSTED EARLIER.)

“Bill C,
In this tight hangstrap situation, the pilot was extremely light on his feet with the glider carrying most of his weight.

“Tad E,
1. In other words, he couldn't adequately/safely control his pitch.
BCR: CORRECT! HIS GLIDER’S NOSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOWER. NO LOCAL PILOTS AT DRY CANYON START THE AWCL TIGHT STRAP. THIS LAUNCH IS BY NO MEANS LIKE P.O.T.M. OR FUNSTON. -----

SNEAKING A PEEK AT NUMBER 2. BELOW THERE IS SOME CONFUSION ON MY PART SINCE MY ANSWER ABOVE IS, “CORRECT!” SO----
a) CORRECT, YES HE COULDN’T.
b) CORRECT, NO HE COULDN’T. (yes we have no bananas.)

2. If the answer to the above question was no, with a loose strap how much less of his weight would the glider be carrying and how less light on his feet would he have been?
BCR: THIS WE MEASURE IN THE OUTCOME OF AN AGGRESSIVE LAUNCH AS COMPARED TO A WEAK LAUNCH AND SOMETIMES A CRASH TO THE RIGHT MORE SO THAN WITH A SCALE BUT DEFINITELY MORE, “LESS LIGHT ON HIS FEET--- THERE! --I GOT YOU BACK NANNY NANNY BOO!

“Bill C,
With the glider balanced into the wind the pilot yelled "Clear."

“Tad E,
In my neck of the woods in an AWCL situation, that means you're planning on being airborne within the coming second.
BCR: WE ARE SLOWER OUT OF THE GATE. TWO SECONDS ON AVERAGE. (CHECK YOUTUBE)

Bill C.
The nose man jumped clear but the pilot hesitated and didn't launch immediately as he should have.

“Tad,
Bingo. Can we talk about something else now?
BCR: IF HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN OUT OVER THE EDGE SOONER HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT ALL BE IT IN A RIGHT TURN CLOSE TO THE RIM. WHEN THERE IS A BLOWN LAUNCH BETTER THAN 90% ARE TO THE RIGHT DUE TO TOPOGRAPHY CAUSING A SHORT LEFT CROSSWIND DURING A STRAIGHT IN DAY.

“Bill C,
The left wing tip, almost without perception, started to rise. I saw this and was thinking, "Launch! Launch! ------- Don't launch!" As the delayed-decision pilot started to move forward, he was on his tiptoes, loosing traction and unable to aggressively power down and off the ramp. The left wing tip started to rise faster as he was slowly clawing his way forward. Four seconds later he crashed on top and to the right of launch.

“Tad E,
1. I am shocked. Shocked!
BCR” WE WERE TOO. NOT WHY IT HAPPENED BUT THAT IT HAPPENED.

2. And he was pulled in as far as was possible?
BCR: THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD ME AND WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE TO THE WIRE CREW.
3. With the wind 20 to 25, how much running on ramps do people typically need to do in that part of the country?
BCR: FOUR TO FIVE STEPS TO THE END OF THE RAMP/CLIFF.

“Bill C,
Landing vertical, with a tight hangstrap, of course, and when encountering a thermal that pushes the nose high, it is generally accepted that if you lower your hands on the down tubes it is easier to pull the control bar back to keep from stalling.

“Tad E,
1. And there's also an obscure minority school of thought - to which Yours Truly subscribes - that holds that it's way WAY easier to pull the control bar back to keep from stalling if you remain prone with your hands on the basetube - and with a tight hangstrap of course.
BCR: AGREED. MY POINT EXACTLY. BEING VERTICAL, HANGSTRAP TIGHT, IT IS HARDER TO DO.

2. And thus many of us consider it moronic to go to vertical before entering ground effect.
BCR: AGREED. (ALL THOUGH I WOULDN’T SAY MORONIC.)

3. I can name you a couple people who died because they were they were vertical when they shouldn't have been and got stalled - one by a thermal, the other because of a rotor issue.
BCR: I BELIEVE IT. IT’S HARDER TO KEEP THE NOSE DOWN WHEN THE PILOT IS VERTICAL.

4. And it really, really, REALLY urinates (had to - "piss" is one of the Carlin Seven) me off that dildeau "instructors" operating at places like Lookout and Packsaddle are forcing students to fly vertical before rewarding them with the privilege of flying glider as it's designed to be flown.

“Bill C.
Still keep in mind that "Lift and Tug" is separate from launching strap-loose or tight yet they can be combined but don't need to be.

“Tad E,
PRECISELY.

“Bill C.
And in Premise #1... (Refer to earlier post.)

“Tad E,
Let's say that the root of all evil WAS the tight strap launch. So with the full crew in place the nose man lets the glider float until the pilot feels ten pounds of tension, brings it back down to whatever the hell the pilot tells him to - then clear and go (assuming, of course, that the LZ is still in place).’
BCR: IT’S NOT A SMOOTH TWANGER LAUNCH LIKE ON THE NORTHEAST END OF OAHU. A PILOT REALLY WANTS TO GET OUT OVER THE EDGE QUICKLY AT “DRY” AND INTO THE SMOOTH AIR. THE HIGHER TERRAIN LEFT OF LAUNCH AND THE LOWER TERRAIN TO THE RIGHT OF LAUNCH WILL SWITCH THE STRAIGHT IN WIND TO A LEFT CROSSWIND. CONCENTRATING ON WHAT YOUR LEFT TIP IS DOING IS THE BEST TIP TO GIVE A VISITING PILOT. WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS BLOWN LAUNCHES TO THE LEFT ARE RARE. THE BEST LAUNCH IS TO POWER DOWN TO THE END OF THE LAUNCH PICKING UP AS MUCH SPEED AS YOU CAN KEEPING THE DOWNTUBES PULLED IN AGAINST YOUR SHOULDERS HOPEFULLY UNTIL THE LAST STEP. THE PILOT WANTS NO ONE TOUCHING THE GLIDER WHILE CALLING, CLEAR!” THE VERY LAST THING A PILOT WANTS IS TO YELL CLEAR AND HAVE SOMEONE HOLDING DOWN ON A WIRE.

“Bill C,
Foot launching has you in the fullest upright position. With the strap tight and, depending on your glider and/or VG setting, ridged wing, flex wing, your pitch, pressure can be mild to extreme.


“Tad E,
And with a loose strap?
BCR: AS STATED EARLIER, SHOULDER FULCRUM HIGH AS POSSIBLE ON THE DOWNTUBES ALLOWS THE PILOT TO HOLD THE NOSE DOWN EASIER.

“Bill C.
Conclusion: A "Lift and Tug" mandatory rule covering so many variables could expose a pilot to additional risks.

“Tad C, (no wait I got that wrong--- It’s Tad E, and Bill C.)
1. But I haven't actually HEARD in your post any variables involved in a lift and tug JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH that actually DO expose a pilot to additional risks.

BCR: YOU MAY HAVE OVERLOOKED IT BUT THE VARIABLES AGAIN ARE THE DIFFERENT PITCH PRESSURES WITH DIFFERENT MAKES OF GLIDERS, THE DIFFERENT SIZE OF PILOTS AS COMPARED TO THE SIZE OF THERE CONTROL FRAMES, VG ON OR NOT (OR WITHOUT), THE REDUCTION IN MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE WHEN LIFTING THE DOWN TUBES OFF OF THE SHOULDERS, MOVING THE FULCRUM AWAY FROM THE LOAD (GLIDER), THEN HAVING THE FULCRUM IN THE CROOK OF THE ELBOWS CLOSER TO THE HANDS (SHORTENING THE LEVER). GIVING UP ANY CONTROL AUTHORITY DOESN'T ADD ANY RISK AT AN A.W.C.L?

2. That original clause was NOT intended for inclusion in the regulations. It was part of a for-the-sake-of-argument discussion.

BCR: SAME WITH THE FIVE LINES BELOW.

“Bill C.
How about this:

"Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* the pilot believes it can be done without exposure to additional risks. However students and pilots must demonstrate a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch."

“Tad E,
How 'bout this:

"With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch."


And IF we wanna do something specifically about lift and tug... Amend:

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.


so it reads:

Lift and tug is MANDATORY *IF* you can physically and safely do it - there's NO legitimate excuse for not doing it.

BCR: “L&T” SHOULD BE DONE AS CLOSE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO LAUNCHING WITH THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF NOT ALLOWING ANY PROCESS OR DISTRACTION IN BETWEEN THE TWO.
____________________________________________________________
SORRY, I’M DONE. I HAVE TO GET AWAY FROM THIS COMPUTER!!!!!
____________________________________________________________


which was my intent anyway. By "physically" I didn't mean heroic and stupid efforts.

"*IF* the pilot BELIEVES" opens up an insanely large can of totally lunatic worms and INSTANTLY renders ANY regulation, SOP, or guideline a total waste of the paper on which it's printed. And we've got way too much opinion based crap poisoning this sport and killing people as it is.

SAFELY - on the other hand - is documentable, demonstrable, measurable, quantifiable, obvious.

“Bob K,
I can support this...

“Tad E,
Of course you can. It's pretty much the same wording you've been promoting.

“Bob K,
...and I think it brings together all of the important elements that we've been discussing.

Tad E,
Yeah. Do whatever you feel like aviation.

“Bob K,
It also meets (and exceeds) the current USHPA regulation which will be helpful when we begin to seek insurance.

“Tad E.
I'm pretty damn happy with the current USHPA regulation just as it is. One of the rare instances where the organization actually got something mostly right. But, of course, that's pretty ancient history. The problem was never the wording - the problem was that there was never the SLIGHTEST effort to implement or enforce it on the part of the hang gliding establishment.

“Bob K,
And in that process, we have to remember that any differences between our regulations and USHPA's will need to be clearly more safe to anyone reading who may not know much about hang gliding (like an insurance underwriter).

“Tad, E
1. Hang gliding doesn't know much about hang gliding. I'm thinking that someone coming in from the outside would have a much better understanding of the meaning of "just prior to launch" than any Lookout Hang Three will ever have any hope of attaining.

2. I'm not entirely sure why we need to worry so much about our regulations with respect to the insurance companies anyway. Our regulations are (supposed to be) concerned with preventing our pilots from smashing themselves harmlessly into rocks and runways and the insurance companies are mostly concerned about our unattended gliders blowing into Lamborghinis.

“Quote unknown,
The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline SHOULD break with a towline tension approximately 100 lbs. greater than the glider end.

“Tad E,
3. But if an insurance agent has half a brain or better he's gonna bolt when he starts seeing words like "should", "if", and "believes". And if he doesn't have half a brain or better I'm gonna do my utmost to clue him in.

“Bob K,
Tad, are you on board with what Bill has written?

Tad E,
See above. I'd rather see nothing put down at all than a mockery being made of a solid safety rule or practice by having it contingent upon the BELIEF system of the individual "pilot".

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bill,

That's a valiant effort to try to get through to Tad.   

But I will be surprised if it makes any difference. It might be that Tad's been away from AWCL conditions for so long that he doesn't remember them any more.

But your points are on target, and I doubt there's any way that we'll end up passing anything that requires a tight hang strap launch against the pilot's best judgement. In aviation - even "real aviation" as Tad likes to say - the final judgement call should always rest with the pilot. I suspect that's what we'll honor.

Thanks for all your writing!! I hope I can get to meet you some day to thank you in person.

Bob Kuczewski

[TadEareckson]

Tad, I'm becoming more and more convinced that you either never knew or have forgotten what it's like to foot launch in difficult conditions.

I STRONGLY advise you to go with the second option if you're gonna push for one of those. And do understand that that one massively sucks too.

You seem to be forgetting that having one's shoulders on the downtubes with one's arms wrapped around them provides an ability to control pitch that you don't have when standing with a tight hang strap.

1. A tight strap NEVER ONCE cramped my style in difficult conditions from the fall of 1980 on the dunes through around fifty glider models to my last foot launch on 2005/10/15 from the slot at Woodstock in twenty mile per hour winds.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.

2. Doesn't sound like Rob was suffering too much from the technique either.

I can stand in that former configuration and drop the nose practically to the ground.

1. How far do you NEED to drop it to neutralize the ten pounds of lift it takes to confirm you've got your glider and leg loops?

2. If you're in dangerous windy conditions and you need to drop the nose to keep from getting blown away, I one hundred percent guarantee you that if you drop the nose practically to the ground it'll be going the rest of the way to the ground.

3. If I'm in dangerous windy conditions I'm gonna ask my nose man if he wouldn't mind staying there doing his job until the freight train finishes blowing through.

You can't do that when standing with a tight hang strap because the base bar is restricted by your legs and the glider is flying further behind you than when you're flying upright in the air.

1. I guess my crap instructors neglected to teach me that was an actual problem so I never noticed it as being one.

2. And I'm thinking now that if it ever HAD been an actual problem I could've tilted the nose down the degree or two it would've taken to neutralize the ten pounds of lift it was generating to keep the glider and leg loops light glowing green, drop the glider onto my shoulders, and bring tears of relief and joy streaming down your cheeks.

3. How come guys like John Seward, Al Hernandez, and Brandon Russell always seem to be worried about the glider going the other way? Why is it that so many people seem to want a guy on the tail to act against ramp suck when all they need to do is let the glider up a few inches to make it start going backwards?

So if you have concerns about being able to pull in the bar when you're upright in free flight (and dangling straight below the hang point)...

I have no concerns whatsoever about being able to pull in the bar when I'm upright in free flight because I never am from about a second or two after I leave the ramp to when I'm skimming the LZ in ground effect. I reserve my concerns for people like Tom Perfetti, Gerry Smith, and Bill Vogel - and always keep their families in my prayers.

...how much worse will it be when the glider is now behind you and your hang strap is angled backward?

I have absolutely no idea. I've never experienced it myself, seen it in the course of the hundreds of high wind launches with which I have assisted, found it on a video, or read about it in the course of an incident report. But let's ask Chris Valley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doe_sNB1wbg

(if we can find someone who's on speaking terms with him).

You're also forgetting that with your arms tightly controlling the downtubes, you have an ability to directly control the pitch through your upper arms and shoulders.

I always found I had all the pitch control I needed with the strap tight.

Look, I'm not just relying on my opinion here.

Oh. Your OPINION. So all the preceding facts about loose strap superiority and the horrors of tight strap are just figments of your OPINION. Thanks for clarifying that. Things are starting to make sense now - particularly the part about the glider flying behind you on a tight strap.

I've asked some of the experts and they have advised me that performing a "lift-and-tug" in difficult conditions can introduce significant risk to the pilot's safety.

WHOA!!! The EXPERTS. Well far be it from me to ever beg to differ with the EXPERTS.

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

Jim Rooney

...

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

...

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

...

Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.

See, we're not confused.

...

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate s***... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in REALITY... but does it work in THEORY?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

...

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

...

So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.

...

I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.

...

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

Zack C

How can you reconcile the above two quotes?

Jim Rooney

This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
You're not the one making the decisions here.

There's just no possible way to win - especially when the experts have God solidly on their side - so why bother?

So just who are these EXPERTS, what are their qualifications, how come they've never made public an incident report about a lift and tugger getting blown off a ramp (backwards), and why didn't any of them ever challenge guys like Doug Hildreth, Dennis Pagen, and Rob Kells when they published their misleading and dangerous recommendations in the magazine?

Maybe it's 'cause they don't want anybody who hasn't paid for their lessons privy to this knowledge and they make all their students sign nondisclosure agreements.

You've not heard about tight strap incidents?
Uh, yeah... cuz nobody survives them in good enough shape to tell the tale.

Look, I'm not just relying on my opinion here. I've asked some of the experts and they have advised me that performing a "lift-and-tug" in difficult conditions can introduce significant risk to the pilot's safety.

Note the wording. They advise that it CAN introduce significant risk to the pilot's safety but don't specify that it ever actually HAS - let alone claim that this alleged introduced significant risk has ever precipitated an actual incident.

Until you can PROVE otherwise, you're just voicing what I would consider to be an uneducated opinion.

Jim Rooney

...

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

...

If you're Steve, sorry to be a prick about this.. but since you seem to have read Tad's blatherings, then you will likely also be familiar with why I'm being a prick.

...

Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .

Kinsley Sykes

Zack figured it out.

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.

Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

But more than that, I think you're being dishonest.

Yeah, no foolin' you, Bob. You always see right through my deceptions - every time.

I believe you KNOW that letting the glider ride up in difficult conditions increases the danger.

Helen McKerral - 2010/01/27

Hiya Tad,

I've been doing the lift and tug for some months now, after our discussion. It's good and it works.

ABSOLUTELY. No freakin' way Rob died of prostate cancer. Lift and tug finally caught up with him and they put out a big cover story so as not to tarnish his image.

So if you wanted to study the tradeoff between that additional risk exposure versus statistical FTHI benefits, then I might respect that discussion. But you have flat-out refused to admit that there's any increased exposure to risk by doing a lift and tug at launch in difficult conditions.

- Hey Bob, can you actually cite any incidents?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02

Please note that the weaklink *saved* her a**. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her...

- Well, no... But there were two guys at Torrey who weren't doing it who got flipped. But if they HAD been doing it they'd have been flipped TWICE. And harder - MUCH harder.

I'm sorry, but that's where you've lost your credibility with me.

Eh. Easy come, easy go. What's one more on a list of thousands anyway?

To be continued...

[Bob Kuczewski]

So if you wanted to study the tradeoff between that additional risk exposure versus statistical FTHI benefits, then I might respect that discussion. But you have flat-out refused to admit that there's any increased exposure to risk by doing a lift and tug at launch in difficult conditions.

- Hey Bob, can you actually cite any incidents?

Ummmm... Let's see ... I'll bet you that the vast majority of pilots flipped over at launch had that happen while their hang straps were tight. Do you want to take that bet?

If not, how about if I bet you that of the pilots flipped over on launch very few were flipped over with loose hang straps. Do you want to take that bet?

[TadEareckson]

1. The issue - be it falling out of your glider just in front of the cliff or being flipped with it just behind - is not what was going on with the strap DURING the disaster but what was going on with it JUST PRIOR - and if what was going on JUST PRIOR had or failed to have an influence on what happened next.

2. THESE flippers had and ALL plungers have LOOSE straps JUST PRIOR to their flavors of disasters.

3. Conclusion...

A loose strap was of no use in preventing these flips and a necessary element for a fatal plunge.

4. But let's assume - with no supporting evidence - that a tight strap DOES increase your probability of a flip. Would you rather:

a) flip behind launch with your glider because your strap was tight; or

b) plunge in front of launch without your glider because your strap was loose?

And lemme try again...

Hey Bob, can you actually cite any incidents supporting your assertion that doing a lift and tug in difficult conditions does or can increase the risk to which the pilot is exposed at launch?

[TadEareckson]

Continued...

Again, maybe you don't remember, but this is unenforcible...

Sure it is. It's just that not once in over thirty years has anyone made the slightest effort to enforce it.

Let's start with some easy ones...

Cragin Shelton - 2005/09/17

You are not hooked in until after the hang check.

Sam Kellner - 2011/11/07

Preflight, Hangcheck, Know you're hooked in.

Rick Masters - 2011/10/19

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

Bob Gillisse - 2001/12/10

Most of you know what happened to me when I failed to hook in. Serious business folks! A lot of discussion was generated on the causes and the cure, and the "cure" for me since then has been to use the Aussie style and hook in as part of the preflight check. Also, launch crew.. always ask the pilot to do a hang check for you and your peace of mind.

Pete Lehmann - 1998/05

The Pulpit's wonderful new ramp experienced its first accident this past winter, though the ramp played no role in it. Bob Gillisse launched from the ramp unhooked, and then fell to the rocks below the ramp. He suffered multiple, badly broken bones, but is now, months later, well on the way to a full recovery. He was extremely fortunate he wasn't killed.

Hook-in failures are one of my paranoid fears (I did one on aero-tow twelve years ago), and I just can't understand why the Aussie system of leaving one's harness always attached to the glider at all times meets such resistance in the US.

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01

I don't have many details at this point, but I just got a call from Scott. Bill Priday launched from Whitwell without hooking in. Scott indicated there was about a hundred foot drop off from launch.

Doug Koch - 2007/10/20
Las Vegas

He started to come in to land and at about 20-30 feet suddenly dropped from the glider. As he was in a semi-prone attitude he came down at an angle of a few degrees and impacted the ground on both feet and then fell forward on his face.

The impact broke both legs at the ankles and drove his shin bones out the bottom of his feet six inches.

Mark Johnson - 2008/08/31

Both Mark Knight and I wanted to see Kunio launch so as soon as we got someone to take our place, we started over. We had not gone ten feet when I heard "Kunio just launched". I stopped and looked and got my first glance at him.

Then all hell broke loose.

Steve Kinsley - 1998/04/30

So Marc thinks the Australian method will forever ban human error and stupidity. I suspect that eighty percent of the flying community would have unhooked to fix the radio problem instead of getting out of the harness entirely. It is easier. And there you are back in the soup.

"With EACH flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR to launch." Emphasis in original. - USHGA Beginner through Advanced requirement.

I know of only three people who actually do this. I am one of them. I am sure there are more but not a lot more. Instead we appear to favor ever more complex (and irrelevant) hang checks or schemes like Marc advocates that possibly increase rather than decrease the risk of hook in failure.

Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24

Once, just prior to launch.

Christian Williams - 2011/10/25

I agree with that statement.

What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run.

Helen McKerral - 2010/01/27

Hiya Tad,

I've been doing the lift and tug for some months now, after our discussion. It's good and it works.

1. These are no-brainers. And I would submit that at least 99.9 percent of ALL foot launches are no-brainers. The person either does it or he doesn't and there is NO QUESTION about his compliance. This is not the massive, gray area, judgment call, nightmare enforceability problem it's being portrayed as.

2. And I defy anybody to find me a video of a foot launch in which the call ISN'T a no-brainer.

3. Damn near ANY regulation you pass is gonna have some gray area / subjective element to it.

While in preferred flying position, demonstrates flight(s) along a planned path alternating "S" turns of at least 90 degrees change in heading. Turns must be smooth with controlled airspeed...

What's "smooth" and "controlled airspeed"?

This is one of the Hang Two flying requirements, we're currently discussing a Hang Two who died because he was conspicuously weak in the this department, we're talking about rubber stamping USHGA Hang Two and Instructor cards, and yet we're not having a big agonizing discussion about the enforceability of THIS regulation.

Who gets to decide what "just prior" means?

How 'bout a jury consisting of a randomly selected fifth grade class which watches the video? I'd put my money on them any day of the week before going with a bunch of r*chardheaded Lookout or Houston pilots who are all totally cool with ten minutes. I'd also trust the kids to make the call on "smooth" and "controlled airspeed" over the USHGA instructor who signed off on John Seward and was ready to sign off on Al.

OK, who decides whether it can be "safely" done or not?

I'm still totally good with the fifth graders. They haven't yet learned from the experts how the glider will start flying behind the pilot when the strap goes tight.

If a pilot chooses to NOT do a lift-and-tug because they feel it's not safe, then who makes the determination that they could have done it safely?

How 'bout we open up ALL the regulations to the discretion of the pilot?

1. While in preferred flying position - upright, prone, or dangling from the basetube - demonstrates flight(s) along a planned path - or wherever the glider gets blown to - alternating "C", "I", "J", "L", "N", "O", "S", "U", "V", or "Z" turns of at least zero degrees change in heading. Turns should be smooth with controlled airspeed or all over the sky, depending upon what the pilot believes is best and/or safest for him to do in his particular situation.

2. Should the pilot believe that that none of the options available above is best and/or safest for him to do in his particular situation this requirement shall be waved upon a payment of not less than $800 (Eight Hundred and 00/100 Dollars) US to his USHGA certified instructor.

It's called "personal responsibility".

The fact that after thirty years we're commonly launching people launching people unhooked, occasionally killing them, nobody's ever heard of a hook-in check, and nobody ever has a rating or instructor certification suspended or revoked as a consequence of anything other than a turf war has indicated to me that personal responsibility is pretty much nonexistent in US hang gliding.

This is where your desire for a "nanny state" is going to get good pilots killed because they're forced to follow a regulation that removes their own judgement in the matter.

- OK, I'm gonna lift the wing into the turbulent, high speed airflow just over us. Everybody make sure he has a good grip on his wires. Here goes.

- Do you really HAVE TO do that? The wing will start moving backwards as the strap tightens and I can barely hold the nose in this thirty gusting forty as it is.

- I'm afraid so. If I don't that power mad US Hawks Safety and Training Committee Chairman will have my rating revoked. And he's got informants EVERYWHERE. So here goes.

- It's starting to move back. I don't think I can hold it.

- Just two more inches and I'll know I've got my glider and my leg loops.

- But I can SEE you're hooked in and have your leg loops!

- That's not good enough for Tad (curse the day he was born). I've gotta FEEL it. Just - one - more - inch.

- I'm losing it! CLEAR THE WINGS AND TAIL!!!

- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! CRUNCH.

- Somebody call 911!

- Fer Chrisake - look at him. Just notify his family. I call his Flytec 6040!

- Damn. That's the third one this weekend. OK, who's up?

- Do I hafta lift and tug?

- What do ya think?

- SCREW THIS! I'm folding up my glider, tearing up my Hawks card, going back to USHGA, and telling all my friends to do the same.

The "pilot believes" clause (that you hate so much) is all about personal responsibility commensurate with the rating that's been earned.

Or purchased for - this Labor Day weekend only - six hundred dollars. All sales final. See Tiffany to inquire about group rates.

It can't be enforced because the wording is too vague to be enforcible.

Nah. That would require too much ten year old kid common sense - and this is hang gliding.

Great, then maybe we don't have to hear any more about mandating "lift and tug".

OK. Then let's start talking about rating suspensions and/or instructor certification revocations when we see stuff like:



and:



Or does somebody wanna get into some lunatic discussion about how those "pilots" in omitting the hook-in check from their launch sequence procedures in those conditions and situations exercised judgment commensurate with the ratings they were given or purchased?

How about if we go with the current regulation and add the qualifier that "'Just prior' is defined to be the last moment in time when the pilot determines they can safely verify their hook-in status." ?

How 'bout if we go with the current regulation and add the qualifier that "just prior" is defined to be within a time span which anyone emitting detectable brain waves would reasonably define to be "just prior" for the circumstances?

[Bob Kuczewski]

This is where your desire for a "nanny state" is going to get good pilots killed because they're forced to follow a regulation that removes their own judgement in the matter.

- OK, I'm gonna lift the wing into the turbulent, high speed airflow just over us. Everybody make sure he has a good grip on his wires. Here goes.

- Do you really HAVE TO do that? The wing will start moving backwards as the strap tightens and I can barely hold the nose in this thirty gusting forty as it is.

- I'm afraid so. If I don't that power mad US Hawks Safety and Training Committee Chairman will have my rating revoked. And he's got informants EVERYWHERE. So here goes.

- It's starting to move back. I don't think I can hold it.

- Just two more inches and I'll know I've got my glider and my leg loops.

- But I can SEE you're hooked in and have your leg loops!

- That's not good enough for Tad (curse the day he was born). I've gotta FEEL it. Just - one - more - inch.

- I'm losing it! CLEAR THE WINGS AND TAIL!!!

- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! CRUNCH.

- Somebody call 911!

- Fer Chrisake - look at him. Just notify his family. I call his Flytec 6040!

- Damn. That's the third one this weekend. OK, who's up?

- Do I hafta lift and tug?

- What do ya think?

- SCREW THIS! I'm folding up my glider, tearing up my Hawks card, going back to USHGA, and telling all my friends to do the same.

I especially like the "curse the day he was born" part.

[Bill Cummings]

- Tad E.
OK, I'm gonna lift the wing into the turbulent, high speed airflow just over us. Everybody make sure he has a good grip on his wires. Here goes.

- Do you really HAVE TO do that? The wing will start moving backwards as the strap tightens and I can barely hold the nose in this thirty gusting forty as it is.

- I'm afraid so. If I don't that power mad US Hawks Safety and Training Committee Chairman will have my rating revoked. And he's got informants EVERYWHERE. So here goes.

- It's starting to move back. I don't think I can hold it.

- Just two more inches and I'll know I've got my glider and my leg loops.

- But I can SEE you're hooked in and have your leg loops!

- That's not good enough for Tad (curse the day he was born). I've gotta FEEL it. Just - one - more - inch.

- I'm losing it! CLEAR THE WINGS AND TAIL!!!

- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! CRUNCH.

- Somebody call 911!

- Fer Chrisake - look at him. Just notify his family. I call his Flytec 6040!

- Damn. That's the third one this weekend. OK, who's up?

- Do I hafta lift and tug?

- What do ya think?

- SCREW THIS! I'm folding up my glider, tearing up my Hawks card, going back to USHGA, and telling all my friends to do the same.

You made me laugh Tad!

[TadEareckson]

And the inspiration...

This is where your desire for a "nanny state" is going to get good pilots killed because they're forced to follow a regulation that removes their own judgement in the matter.

...DIDN'T? Go figure.