[Free]

Peter Birren, deserves a thread of his own, not to be lost deep in another..

Peter, you've made quite a splash of your entry to this site.
Yes, its Warren Narron, and I'm sure you didn't have to ask to know.
There is a lost thread where you evade a Warren Shirtzinger, banning/apology question.
You sort of state that you didn't apologize for banning him for no reason if I remember right?
I'll look for and import that discussion later. Its past my bedtime.

This thread's for you!

Warren #1

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Warren and Peter,

I don't know the history between you guys, but the introduction above seems foreboding to me.

Whatever differences you've had in the past, I would just like to ask that you both try to be courteous toward each other and hold a discussion that will produce a productive relationship between you and benefit the sport of hang gliding.

One way to do that is to state clear actions that you would like the other person to take. For example, I spent considerable time being critical of the USHPA Board on various issues. But I always offered clear suggestions on what they should do to correct those areas of criticism (such as institute an open voting policy, write a letter requesting another seat on the Soaring Council, request that David Jebb lift the lifetime ban on David Beardslee). These were all steps that they could have taken and were well within their power. Accusations of past wrong-doing are not productive, and asking people to change the past is also not productive. But concrete and reasonable requests regarding what can be done now provide a way to move forward.

I leave it in your hands to try to do that.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

[Free]

Hi Warren and Peter,
I don't know the history between you guys, but the introduction above seems foreboding to me.

I'm trying to remember the history also, Bob.
I've enjoyed a few rounds of back and forth with Peter in the past and it seems there might have been a glimmer of understanding on a few issues that could be interesting to explore.

I'm not happy with the way any of my bannings have gone but it is everyone's loss when people are so threatened that they ban everyone else with the name Warren, especially Warren Shirtzenger.

Warren Shirtzenger, is a man of highest integrity and qualifications beyond those of most of the U$HPA controlling interest, and yet he he was booted to the curb like yesterday's garbage from people that are very paranoid about maintaining control over information and transparency. I might understand why the U$HPA borg would want to keep transparency and integrity out of public reach. The U$HPA has a lot of history that they probably need to hide. P.B. not so much? I was just hoping that Peter could better explain his side of that time in hang gliding history.

[TadEareckson]

I don't know the history between you guys...

1. I don't know it either but...

-A. The web makes a lot of things pretty easy to verify nowadays.

-B. When Person A asks Person B a question with a potentially embarrassing answer and Person B abruptly disappears from the conversation I usually end up with a pretty good idea of what the answer would've been and who deserves to win the round.

-C. Peter's got a huge history of not responding to questions with potentially - and inescapably - embarrassing answers.

Accusations of past wrong-doing are not productive, and asking people to change the past is also not productive.

Regarding my own situation with Peter... He's endorsing some extremely dangerous "theory", publications, and equipment and won't engage in the dialogue necessary for him to identify and fix the problems.

The issue is past, current, and - since misinformation published and equipment circulated ten years ago is quite capable of killing someone five years from now - future. He's got a lot of work to do to get himself on the proper side of the equation.

I'm not happy with the way any of my bannings have gone but it is everyone's loss when people are so threatened that they ban everyone else with the name Warren, especially Warren Shirtzenger.

Dutcher Sterling - 2009/05/09

Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions

To:
skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
HangGlide@yahoogroups.com
ozreport@davisstraub.com

Tad,

YOU are a very DANGEROUS person!!!!!!!!!

Did you run out of victims in the San Diego area??? People should check out your previous antics!!!!!!!!!

You are so completely full of "the Gospel According to Tad" that you are going to cause no end of problems AGAIN!!!!! But this time at a National level.

Where the hell do you get:

"As the principles involved in towing hang gliders are identical to those concerning sailplanes we should be modeling our protocols on techniques understood, accepted, and proven many decades ago in conventional aviation rather than making feeble and misguided efforts to reinvent these wheels."

The Reynolds numbers are very different, hang gliders do not have control surfaces for the most part, etc. It is you that is "rife with inconsistencies and dangerous information"!!!!!!

How many hours do you have flying sailplanes on tow?? How many tows do you have on a hang glider? You have never tried to work within the community, culture... but instead get on some evangelical crusade that does nothing but harm to the community!

Your rant to the FAA is nothing but a self serving grab for attention at the expense of the whole Hang Gliding and Paragliding community and you need to be stopped!! Get a life! It is YOU, YOURSELF "that lacks a critical mass of understanding"!!

All and any of you getting this e-mail need to make sure your RD and the BOD of the USHPA are fully aware of this evangelicals latest misguided efforts.

Tad when was the last time you flew? Is this because you have the same poor pilot skills as you used to? Tried towing and got yourself in trouble? Is this again your evangelical form of denial that is going to jeopardize the sport, once again?

Some of us out here remember your last preaching that caused so many problems for local pilots!!!! See the HG list archives...

Fly Safe or Don't!

Tad Eareckson

Hi Dutcher,

Long time no see.

Speaking of which - I don't believe we've ever crossed paths west of the Shenandoah Valley, I've never been attached to a glider west of the North Dakotan badlands, and I've never been any closer to San Diego than San Francisco.

Dutcher - 2009/05/10

Tad;

I must apologize for confusing myself on whom you are... and going "evangelical"

But... there is great value in the chain of command/information. There was a time when the USHGA was being very misguided...members working within the BOD managed to get things sorted out at that time. The trouble with not working at fixing what you have and preserving the knowledge base; is the "fix" usually also fails and often things get reduced to the lowest common denominator of "politics".

I am glad that my misguided e-mail has had the desired effect nonetheless... excuse me while I floss the shoe leather out of my teeth... ;-)

Fly Safe or Don't, but fly a lot!

Tad - 2009/05/11

Thanks for the identity clarification thing.

Dutcher - 2009/05/13

Tad,

I can see your frustration as we now have a "professional" not for profit corporation called the USHPA. Which IMHO is no longer geared to be responsive to the needs of the pilot, but to those of the corporation.

It used to be a case of ineptitude and nepotism amongst the BOD, but now they are professionals...

Your best hope at this point is to send a copy of what you want changed, where in the SOPs, the changes themselves, and your arguments to the USHPA president, executive director, towing committee chair, safety and training committee chair, organization and bylaws committee chair; with a cover letter asking that these changes be made to the necessary documents. I would try to work through Tracy Tillman and Dave Broyles.

Then I would plan to take this to the next BOD meeting. If you can not go and champion this yourself, then find another to do so. Should this fail to get action of any sort, especially on the weak link standard and test standards then...

Send your work to the FAA by certified mail and a copy to the USHPA, also certified, with a cover explaining your action and stating that if ant injury of death occurs because the USHPA and its directors failed to take action that they are negligent in their duties to the pilot community.

Now I must tell you that the "New" "Better" "Professional" USHPA has gone to great length to insulate themselves from any responsibility/liability IMHO. So needless to say, as you seem to have found out, you will have little chance to get anything done, but there is always hope if you make enough noise.

I commend your efforts, but do fear the involvement of the FAA. I used to go to BOD meetings and was able to effect some change before health and financial issues grounded me...

[Birren]

Peter Birren, deserves a thread of his own, not to be lost deep in another..

Peter, you've made quite a splash of your entry to this site.
Yes, its Warren Narron, and I'm sure you didn't have to ask to know.
There is a lost thread where you evade a Warren Shirtzinger, banning/apology question.
You sort of state that you didn't apologize for banning him for no reason if I remember right?
I'll look for and import that discussion later. Its past my bedtime.

This thread's for you!

Warren #1

Hi, "Free."

No, I never banned Shirtzinger because he was never a member of any yahoogroup I owned. Mentioned in some post here that I met him once at a BOD meeting. The brief chat we had in a hallway was very cordial and I have nothing bad to say about him. Ergo, no apology necessary because nothing untoward occurred, no banning, no nothing. There were, however, some things that happened in one committee or another -- probably having to do with the so-called strategic plan -- but I wasn't part of that committee or any official discussion. I did submit my opinions (privately) on the plan to both Jayne and Lisa Tate, and in those there was not a single mention of Warren S.

- Peter

[Birren]

Regarding my own situation with Peter... He's endorsing some extremely dangerous "theory", publications, and equipment and won't engage in the dialogue necessary for him to identify and fix the problems.

The issue is past, current, and - since misinformation published and equipment circulated ten years ago is quite capable of killing someone five years from now - future. He's got a lot of work to do to get himself on the proper side of the equation.

Tad, your ignorance is showing (again).

I have engaged you in several long discussions only to find you a recalcitrant egomaniac. Your take on things is, as Dutcher suggested, evangelical... if it ain't your way, it's heresy. You don't care for discussion, just pontificating ad nauseum on Your Way or the Highway.

The Linknife, by the way, has been in constant use for 15 years without a single injury as a result and many happy pilots. See: www.birrendesign.com/LKTestimonials.html.

- Peter

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for joining in the conversation.

I think it's healthy to try to resolve some of these past issues. We have a very small sport and it's not healthy to have us fractured due to past history. So I really appreciate when people make a sincere effort to bring up past issues and hopefully resolve them in a positive manner.

Thanks for any attempts (past or future) to do that.

Bob Kuczewski

P.S. I wrote my response to the earlier posts (between you and Warren) just before your most recent post (directly above). So I'll add that I think your assessment of Tad is mostly accurate. Having said that, I still have hope that we might get people like Tad to drop the personal vendettas and apply their knowledge to improving the sport. If we can't, then the US Hawks might be a short experiment in free speech.

Thanks again for participating.

[Birren]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for joining in the conversation.

I think it's healthy to try to resolve some of these past issues. We have a very small sport and it's not healthy to have us fractured due to past history. So I really appreciate when people make a sincere effort to bring up past issues and hopefully resolve them in a positive manner.

Thanks for any attempts (past or future) to do that.

Bob Kuczewski

A shred of memory surfaced... WarrenS "may" have gotten a good taste of life in a USHGA committee and quit. You know, where those who have the most control of Robert's Rules of Order prevail against those with an actual point. I don't recall him being tossed by the wayside; more that he removed himself from the situation.

- Peter

PS: No problems.

[Bob Kuczewski]

WarrenS "may" have gotten a good taste of life in a USHGA committee and quit. You know, where those who have the most control of Robert's Rules of Order prevail against those with an actual point.

I learned that lesson the hard way at my first Board meeting as a Director. One of the officers (I think it was Mark Forbes) used Robert's Rules to sink an initiative that I was pushing.

So I went home and read up on Robert's rules, and I was ready at subsequent meetings. In fact, I got that same item passed by a thin margin at my last meeting as a Director (spring of 2009). Unfortunately, even though it was passed by the entire USHPA board, it was simply ignored and never implemented by the officers at that time (Lisa Tate, Riss Estes, Rich Hass, Mark Forbes). That's when I began to see how corrupt USHPA had become, and I began working on other alternatives like the ill-fated HGAA ... and now the US Hawks.

[Free]

A shred of memory surfaced... WarrenS "may" have gotten a good taste of life in a USHGA committee and quit. You know, where those who have the most control of Robert's Rules of Order prevail against those with an actual point. I don't recall him being tossed by the wayside; more that he removed himself from the situation.
- Peter

I'm sure that Warren Shirtzinger got a bad taste of 'good ol' boys' that didn't want outsiders looking over their shoulders at how they do buisness or maybe look at the books from back in the day when money went missing to the point of almost busting the borg. Several people got that message and dropped their volunteerism.

That's not what I was talking about, Peter. Your memory is worse than mine because I distinctly remember you 'bitching out' Warren S. on the more than likely defunct 'anti-power footlaunch' yahoo group that you were involved in. I can't recall if you were a moderator or not but the effect of the bitch out did seem to do the trick.
Who wants to belong to a group that acts like that?

Anything ringing a bell?
Your bell was rung in a towing accident some time ago, right? Sorry to hear about that.
Maybe that is why you can't remember?