[wingspan33]

Sorry Dennis,

I was writing my response bit by bit, over a couple hours time and did not see your post, urging us to take the higher road. You make many very good points. However, it was your sincere attempt to fix things that sent Jack into his latest rage. That's not meant to come off as me blaming you for the result. Not at all. I see what you did as admirable. I think many people did. Unfortunately, Jack did not see it that way. That's the sad part, because it reveals a defect in Jack's character, that, I am afraid, is not only destructive but unchangeable.

When someone has such problems, taking the high road does no good. Why? Because the problem person always puts themselves on an even higher road. They need to be in the right, and to admit a mistake is to admit a personal failure. Some people are, unfortunately, taught from a young age to never admit ANY kind of failure. It can go to the extreme where they simply can't or will not recognize that they are capable of failure or have failed. With such a person, the only way to work with them is to be utterly submissive and to never question their motives or abilities.

There are leaders who have accomplished great things and had just such personalities. But I have had experience with such individuals and they are NOT to be pacified. The less power they have the better. If at all possible, I will not grant such a person additional power by submitting to their abusive nature.

They may have learned their ways by themselves being abused and learning, intimately, how it's done. Therefore, I may have reason to feel pity for such a person, but I will do my best not to allow further abuse to be perpetuated by their actions. If such a person holds the upper hand, then often the best thing is to walk away. If you are out of their reach (literally or figuratively) they have no power over you. Unfortunately, sometimes this kind of individual negatively affects a community. So, the question becomes: Do you abandon the community when such an individual acts to do harm to that community? Is taking the high road the same as walking away from the community? Or is acting to improve the community taking the high road?

For myself, I haven't been active in any form of argumentation against Jack for over two months. It was only recently that I began posting again here - the only site (besides the Oz Report) where I figure what I say will be viewed by anyone who may benefit from reading it. And it wasn't until your thread over at HG.org was mostly exhausted that I even heard about and read it. I've commented since then, but when somebody intentionally defames your character that person should expect a reaction.

I too would like to see this or some web site where jack and HG.org and HGAA issues can be left outside the door. But being silenced on HG.org and HGAA.org leaves Jack Axaopoulos to stand on a pretty tall soap box while he shouts his lies, distortions, half truths and/or exaggerations. I wouldn't care if people read such things and dismissed them. Unfortunately, a large number of them actually believe such shovelings. So, here is our own small soap box. We can't be censored or banned here by Jack Axaopoulos (aka SG). People may wander over here and find another view of the HG.org and/or HGAA situation. If we had not said anything, or stopped speaking our minds now, then the informational balance to Jack Axaopoulos' outlandish claims would be gone and the person who may possibly be seeking a greater perspective would have nothing to find. I don't see that as a good thing.

Still, I thank you for your efforts over on HG.org. I'd also like to say thanks to SkyPilot for including the suggestion for my reinstatement. You had every good intention in starting that thread. It demonstrates a level of character that I can't help but respect. I'm sure Bob and MANY others share that respect. It makes you a richer man. The negative results should not diminish the positive. You made an honest effort to repair the bridges. But you can't always stop it when one side acts to knock them down even further. You can only hope that time might somehow change their perspective.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Scott and Dennis,

It's even worse than I had imagined. Jack even went through the Torrey Hawks forum and vandalized individual posts to make it look like people had said things that they didn't say.

Take a look at this example:

Falsified Posting by Jack Axaopoulos

Falsification_of_Post.png (86.65 KiB) Viewed 12018 times

If you just look at this post, you'd think that I had accused myself (in big red letters) of committing voter fraud. But I didn't write those words (and I also didn't commit voter fraud). In fact, if you look at the date, you'll see that my original post was from December 8th, 2009 - almost a year ago and long before there even was an HGAA. But because Jack owns and controls the TorreyHawksForum, he can change anything in anyone's posts to make it look as if they had said anything he wants ... anytime he wants. That's frightening in the hands of someone who appears so unstable.

This is why I was so adamant that forum moderators should not be changing people's posts. Otherwise we end up not knowing what was said and who said it. This is bad enough in a general forum, but it's a disaster when used in a forum where important decisions are being made. In fact, Jack has moved and/or changed so many posts on the HGAA that it's now almost impossible to follow what was actually said during any of those on line "meetings". That totally destroyed our original goals of transparency and accountability.

But getting back to Jack's most recent falsifications, if Jack will do this on the Torrey Hawks forum, then what are his limits? Can we trust anything on hanggliding.org or on the HGAA forum any more? What are the limits of Jack's "meltdowns"?

[Free]

The emperor has no clothes.
Jack's power play and dirty tactics are taking it's toll.
I believe Ryan was the first to go. I might have misjudged him before.
There are others that spoke up, risking the dictator's rath.
Now Dennis Cavagnaro says he is out of the upstart org.
This came out of an ongoing religion attack at the "Band of Brothers".

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=80

#96
Dennis Cavagnaro:
After the insurance report is done i am out of the HGAA as well. I sent you a PM weeks ago but you never responed and I just thought you were busy. I probably should know better and expected less..

Jack has a patent on data mining. He profits from people's personal information. Forum data mining profits are small potatoes in actual returns to Jack, personally, but he 'owns' everything anyone ever posts to those sites.
Your pictures, your personal information, your thoughts..
I guess he feels that as long as he owns it he can alter it.
He calls it his living room.
It's the tool of a childish dictator.

The greed gene got the best of Jack.
He jumped the gun with the early takeover attempt and the HGAA is likely destined as a false start.

An insurgency's energy was wasted on a cheap power play for all the marbles.
The effort and bad publicity is still a good thing, though. All publicity is good.
I would still consider membership if they can somehow come up with a viable product. This would be the result of the remaining team's effort. The group should continue their work.

[Bob Kuczewski]

The emperor has no clothes.
Jack's power play and dirty tactics are taking it's toll.

That's true, but only with those who actually know what he's done. If you read hanggliding.org you'll find lots of contented pilots happily swapping flying stories and videos while remaining oblivious to the unfair treatment of their fellow pilots on that forum. It reminds me of Nazi Germany ...

"The economy is good, and we don't have any problems with the Jews. In fact, we hardly hear from the Jews at all, so everything must be fine."

By controlling the media, Jack is able to control the attention of those who might actually care ... if they really knew what's been happening.

I believe Ryan was the first to go. I might have misjudged him before.

I'm with you on this as well. We have to remember that Ryan is still growing up, so he's a work in progress. I think he's been a long time friend of Wingspan, and maybe that helped him to see the abuse for what it was. I'm sure you know that I've had my frustration with Ryan, but I'm seeing him act much more maturely now, and he's always welcome here. Of course, even Jack and John are welcome here. The US Hawks is intended to be a Big Tent organization.

There are others that spoke up, risking the dictator's rath.
Now Dennis Cavagnaro says he is out of the upstart org.
This came out of an ongoing religion attack at the "Band of Brothers".

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=80

#96
Dennis Cavagnaro:
After the insurance report is done i am out of the HGAA as well. I sent you a PM weeks ago but you never responed and I just thought you were busy. I probably should know better and expected less..

That shocked me!! Dennis made a comment early on about freedom of speech on the HGAA, but then he seemed to go along with Jack over time. I know that Dennis and Jack worked on the Lead Generation program, and so I've assumed their mutual loyalty was indivisible. Even with his statement, I will be surprised if Dennis is able to see through his loyalty to the actual abuses. But that would certainly be a pleasant surprise.

Jack ... 'owns' everything anyone ever posts to those sites.
Your pictures, your personal information, your thoughts..
I guess he feels that as long as he owns it he can alter it.
He calls it his living room.
It's the tool of a childish dictator.

The greed gene got the best of Jack.
He jumped the gun with the early takeover attempt and the HGAA is likely destined as a false start.

I think overcoming this problem was the genius of the US Constitution and our Bill of Rights. If we're going to build the US Hawks, we'll have to overcome this as well. Right now, I'm effectively the "new dictator" here on US Hawks, and that may work for a while because I try to be more tolerant than Jack was. But in the long run, if the US Hawks is going to live up to its potential, we will have to come up with processes and structures that are more democratic and less dependent on personality types. But even a democracy without a "Bill of Rights" becomes a tyranny of the majority. That's what we saw on the HGAA. Of course their problems were worsened by the choice of a stupid voting system which allowed it to be a tyranny of the minority. Remember that the majority voted against a permanent ban of Wingspan, but the Range voting system allowed Jack's minority to get their way. They rushed to adopt Range voting without really thinking it through and Wingspan paid the price for their haste.

An insurgency's energy was wasted on a cheap power play for all the marbles.

Very true, but we've learned some important lessons along the way. I am hoping the US Hawks can learn from those lessons and become better than both USHPA and the HGAA as a result. We have everything that the HGAA had when it started, but we've got more wisdom now. Additionally, I think I was too quick to turn the HGAA over to whoever stepped up. That opened the HGAA up to whoever wanted to make such a power play. I'm going to be more careful with the US Hawks, and I hope people will come here because they like the way that I run the site and the way that I treat the members.

I would still consider membership if they can somehow come up with a viable product. This would be the result of the remaining team's effort. The group should continue their work.

I agree with you somewhat here. But rather than focus on what the HGAA might (or might not) become, I'd like to build the US Hawks to be what we know it could be. We can wait and see what the HGAA and USHPA do, but rather than wait, I'd like to get to work on building our own model of a national hang gliding association. Let's not be rushed (as the HGAA allowed itself to be), and let's take our time to do it right.

What do you think? Are you up for that?

[Free]

The emperor has no clothes.
Jack's power play and dirty tactics are taking it's toll.

That's true, but only with those who actually know what he's done. If you read hanggliding.org you'll find lots of contented pilots happily swapping flying stories and videos while remaining oblivious to the unfair treatment of their fellow pilots on that forum. It reminds me of Nazi Germany ...

"The economy is good, and we don't have any problems with the Jews. In fact, we hardly hear from the Jews at all, so everything must be fine."

By controlling the media, Jack is able to control the attention of those who might actually care ... if they really knew what's been happening.

Jack's dirty power tactics are a microcosm of a larger program. Keep people entertained and dumb them down.
He appeals to base instincts and evokes an artificial comraderie at the same time he isolates and demonizes those he sees as competition.
Pilots are a selfish lot. Not all, but a large percentage. I really saw this a few years ago with a falling out with former flight park partner Jim Gaar.

A large part of why I resist giving any money to the USHPA is that I asked Mark Forbes to make one phone call to help straighten out the issue, and of course he refused. 'The corporation doesn't get involved in local issues'. Ha!

Jim Gaar, as self claimed owner of the flight park that I helped found, decided that after my partnership was 'revoked' that I would not even be able to purchase a tow on equipment that I helped build and purchase.
Too much to get into here. You've seen some of the same from Gaar when he gave his opinion that you should be voted out, permanately. No logical reason behind it, it was just his selfish gut feeling, 'Band of Brothers' kinda thing.. anyway ol' banned o' bruthers rodie has cost the USHPA a few bucks in the meantime..

I would still consider membership if they can somehow come up with a viable product. This would be the result of the remaining team's effort. The group should continue their work.

I agree with you somewhat here. But rather than focus on what the HGAA might (or might not) become, I'd like to build the US Hawks to be what we know it could be. We can wait and see what the HGAA and USHPA do, but rather than wait, I'd like to get to work on building our own model of a national hang gliding association. Let's not be rushed (as the HGAA allowed itself to be), and let's take our time to do it right.

What do you think? Are you up for that?

Again, I see this movement as a microcosm of a larger struggle.
Truth, justice, humanity..
How this turns out may be indication of the larger picture.
We all need to come together to resist the boots of tyranny.
You are on the right side of these issues and I will support that.
In the mean time, I have a little Tom Sawyer in me.
It's good to have others painting the fence, thinking they got the best end of a deal.
I say, let them paint as long as they want.
There is a lot of fence..

[Bob Kuczewski]

I'm sorry I didn't have time to respond more completely earlier - I've been busy with several other projects. But I think it's time to go through Jack's posting (on torreyhawksforum.org) and point out some of the most glaring mistruths. I won't even bother with things that might be debatable, and instead I'll focus on the "low hanging fruit" where it's obvious that what he's saying isn't true. I've attached Jack's current version below in its entirety so I won't be accused of taking it out of context, and I'll just go through some of those statements here:

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "Please excuse the wild rantings of Scott C. Wise."

Has anyone seen any "wild rantings" from Scott? Scott's been pretty calm and methodical throughout this fiasco, and I'd like anyone to show me where he's posted "wild rantings". Thanks.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "He [Scott] abused his powers with the HGAA(Hang Gliding Association of America)"

That sounds pretty ominous, but exactly what did he do? He dismissed his vice chair ... whom he had chosen. Was that an abuse of power? He started one topic where he made an announcement and then locked it. Was that an abuse of power? Come on Jack, if you're going to accuse someone of abuse of power, how about stating exactly what they did?

Jack Axaopoulos continues: "and [Scott] was immediately and democratically about to be voted out of office by a majority vote of the founders of the HGAA"

You don't know that at all. You locked the forums so we couldn't have a discussion about what to do. You took control from Scott using your power of the forum. Scott himself wasn't even allowed to post without your say so. How could Scott conduct himself as Chair of the HGAA when you took his power away from him? If you hadn't abused your power to do that, then I predict Scott would have remained as chair.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "Bob Kuczewski - Was also voted out of the HGAA."

Now that's an outright lie. I was never voted out of the HGAA, and I believe that I am an HGAA member to this day. I may not be on the Transition Team and I may not be able to post on your SGAA forum Jack, but I am still a member of the HGAA. If you protest this, then please show me exactly where I was "voted out of the HGAA". This is a verifiable lie.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "He commited blatant voter fraud by asking the administrator to change peoples voting records to give more votes to Scott. C. Wise."

That's another lie Jack. I asked you to correct an election that you had rigged. You had botched your job and I was making suggestions to fix it ... including that you just restart the voting with the proper list of candidates. But you Jack refused to do that because you wanted to manipulate the results. Please check the record of posts on this topic if you want to know what really happened.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "the ENTIRE rest of the HGAA members voted against Bob."

Really? Now you're lying in CAPITAL letters, Jack. You posed the poll question "Is Bob doing more harm than good", and the results were 6 yes, and 2 no. That's not even the ENTIRE Transition Team ... let alone the ENTIRE rest of the HGAA members! You lied right there in capital letters.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "Bob Kuczewski continues to burn bridges and alienate himself from the entire hang gliding community."

The "entire hang gliding community" Jack? That's a provable exaggeration.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "He has lost all support."

Again, Jack's use of words like "all" demonstrates the kind of irresponsible statements Jack makes. It's clear on this forum alone that I haven't "lost all support", so that's another lie.

Jack Axaopoulos writes: "When Bob Kuczewski and Scott C. Wise were banned from the largest hang gliding community on the internet, the response from the community was 100% positive."

That's another provable lie right there. Jack, didn't you read the topic titled "A petition to reinstate the account of BobK"?

Let's review some of the posts in that topic:

Here's what Dennis wrote:

"TO SG: I request the reinstatement of BobK's user account and full posting privileges, I do not believe Bob's actions warranted a ban"

Here's what OSCAR wrote:

"Got my vote to reinstate Bob K. I miss Bob's input on the Org."

Here's what noman3 wrote:

"ya me to,come on sg give him a 2."

Here's what hgflyer wrote:

"noman (I hope) knows my opinion. Hip, Hip, Hooray...For Bobk! Your not to bad yourself SG!"

Here's what SkyPilot wrote:

"SG already knows that he has my deepest respect and gratitude. At the same time I endorse the return of BobK to hanggliding.org. And in the spirit of your post, Dennis, I would also endorse the return of Wingspan too."

That was also endorsed by hgflyer, and then here's what Jason Rogers wrote:

"If noman and I could kiss and make up... I think there should be hope for any couple in trouble. Perhaps a probationary period? one strike and you're out?"

DiarmaidMurphy wrote:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll die for your right to say it."

jimrooney wrote:

"As for my personal opinion, Aerotow is the only one that comes to mind who I wouldn't give a second chance. Bob was long winded and single minded, but I don't remember him being a jerk. And when I've talked with him on the phone, he was extremely polite."

tipvortex seconded SkyPilot's comments and added:

"Well said. I would also like to see both BobK and Wingspan34 reinstated. Their input was, and is, valued and missed."

Ryan wrote:

"I don't miss the millions of Torrey and political threads... but I think Bob has just as much right to be here as the next guy..."

The support was likely to continue, but Jack quickly buried that topic in the basement. Now let's review what Jack wrote afterward:

Jack Axaopoulos wrote: "When Bob Kuczewski and Scott C. Wise were banned from the largest hang gliding community on the internet, the response from the community was 100% positive."

100% positive? Really Jack? Is that what you call 100% positive?
Is it your math or your honesty that needs remedial attention?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's Jack's most recent post to TorreyHawksForum.org for reference:

The Torrey Hawks Forum is CLOSED
People interested in promoting Hang Gliding
are invited to join the
Hang Gliding Association of America
here ---> HGAA FORUM

Just in case you come across some crazy sounding posts in this forum archive, the below will explain everything:
Scott C. Wise
Please excuse the wild rantings of Scott C. Wise. He abused his powers with the HGAA(Hang Gliding Association of America), and was immediately and democratically about to be voted out of office by a majority vote of the founders of the HGAA(Hang Gliding Association of America), but quickly resigned. Scott C. Wise has also been kicked out of the Southern New York Hang Gliding club website, the Rochester Area Flyers website and the hanggliding.org website. Quite the track record of working well with people, dont ya think?
He now spends his days fabricating wild stories and smearing some of the best volunteers in the sport of hang, as a form of childish revenge
Bob Kuczewski
Was also voted out of the HGAA. He commited blatant voter fraud by asking the administrator to change peoples voting records to give more votes to Scott. C. Wise.
Imagine the shock when the following private message showed up in the administrators private message list. Bob literally asked that peoples voting points be moved from one candidate to his candidate.

Bob was causing so much chaos with his constant rule breaking and rants, a concerned member put up a vote on the forum. As you can see Scott and Bob voted together again, and the ENTIRE rest of the HGAA members voted against Bob.

Bob Kuczewski continues to burn bridges and alienate himself from the entire hang gliding community. He has lost all support. Both Bob and Scott were crushed and embarassed in the HGAA election, and so they continue their campaign of lies and smears against the people who voted them out. A childish display of sour grapes. Here are the election results. They could not even muster half the votes of their opponents.

Bob and Scott banned
When Bob Kuczewski and Scott C. Wise were banned from the largest hang gliding community on the internet, the response from the community was 100% positive. Here is a snapshot of the messages sent to the admin. Not a single negative message. Everyone was happy and relieved. When will these people realize they are in the wrong?

They now have a new home together, on an empty forum, where they can complain about their situation, pat each other on the back, and blame everyone but themselves for their actions.

Its time to move forward with a new hang gliding organization without the vitriol being spewed by these two damaging people

[wingspan33]

I think it's way past high time to file a civil suit.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I think it's way past high time to file a civil suit.

It's on the list of options...

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hey Warren,

I'm sorry I skipped over your excellent post without commenting. I was so busy setting the record straight on Jack's post that I didn't see yours.

Jack's dirty power tactics are a microcosm of a larger program. Keep people entertained and dumb them down.
He appeals to base instincts and evokes an artificial comraderie at the same time he isolates and demonizes those he sees as competition.

You're absolutely right. This is a microcosm of a larger problem in our society. We've lost the sense of genuine community where we actually look after one another and attempt to play a role in maintaining fairness in our communities. Everyone is too busy running on their own hamster wheel to help one another as should be done.

Dennis made a great attempt by posting his comments, and a bunch of pilots (Dennis, OSCAR, noman3 , hgflyer, SkyPilot, Jason, DiarmaidMurphy, jimrooney, tipvortex, and Ryan) stepped in to help, but that was quickly shut down by the moderator. Jack did exactly the wrong thing there. He should have used their pleas as a way to heal the divide while retaining his own pride:

"OK guys. I really don't agree that we should allow Bob and Wingspan back, but since you've all requested it, I'll go along with it for the good of the community."

That would have been the better solution, and I hope that's the kind of thing that we would do on this forum. And that brings me to another part of Warren's post:

A large part of why I resist giving any money to the USHPA is that I asked Mark Forbes to make one phone call to help straighten out the issue, and of course he refused. 'The corporation doesn't get involved in local issues'. Ha!

Jim Gaar, as self claimed owner of the flight park that I helped found, decided that after my partnership was 'revoked' that I would not even be able to purchase a tow on equipment that I helped build and purchase. Too much to get into here.

I'd like the US Hawks to be an organization that tries to mend these kinds of divides in our community. I've had some interactions with Jim Gaar, and he doesn't seem like an unreasonable fellow. I've had some interactions with Warren and I feel the same. Sometimes I think all that's needed is a way to bring people together and maybe we could heal some of these conflicts in the hang gliding community.

But that will take work. It will take third parties willing to roll up their sleeves and get into the details of conflicts and try to bring the parties together. It's often a thankless job and sometimes the third party just ends up making enemies, but that doesn't mean that the effort isn't worth it.

I agree with you somewhat here. But rather than focus on what the HGAA might (or might not) become, I'd like to build the US Hawks to be what we know it could be. We can wait and see what the HGAA and USHPA do, but rather than wait, I'd like to get to work on building our own model of a national hang gliding association. Let's not be rushed (as the HGAA allowed itself to be), and let's take our time to do it right.

What do you think? Are you up for that?

Again, I see this movement as a microcosm of a larger struggle.
Truth, justice, humanity..
How this turns out may be indication of the larger picture.
We all need to come together to resist the boots of tyranny.
You are on the right side of these issues and I will support that.
In the mean time, I have a little Tom Sawyer in me.
It's good to have others painting the fence, thinking they got the best end of a deal.
I say, let them paint as long as they want.
There is a lot of fence..

That's a good perspective there Warren.

Mostly I like the idea of carving out a place where we take time to try to provide "Truth, justice, and humanity" just as you suggested.

A friend contacted me when he read about the defacing of the Torrey Hawks forum, and he mentioned the way that the Bible discusses handling of disputes. I don't want the US Hawks to be based on any particular religious teachings, but he made a good point. We ought to have ways of handling disputes in our community that are fair and well-respected. We all want to be treated fairly, but that may mean that we sometimes have to volunteer to see that others are treated fairly as well. We all want a jury of our peers when we're on trial, but that means we shouldn't be ducking jury duty when it's our turn to serve that role for others.

This particular topic ("Jack Axaopoulos Meltdown") and a few others in this forum appear - on the surface - to be attacks of what happened on hanggliding.org and the HGAA. But they're trying to accomplish much more than just set the record straight. They're trying to examine what went wrong and to learn from it so we don't repeat those mistakes in the US Hawks. That's the prize, and that's where we need to focus. If we can provide a service to try to mend fences between our members then that's something that will make us better than USHPA and better than the HGAA. That's something I'd like to see us try.

To quote one of my favorite Eagle's songs:

"There is no more new frontier,
we have got to make it here."

Let's work to make the US Hawks something better for hang gliding and an example of how people should treat each other even beyond hang gliding. That's a lofty goal, but it gives us something to do while all the neighborhood kids over in the HGAA are painting that fence for us.

[Free]

Jack Axaopoulos' continues playing the (sic) 'victim' while he vandalizes the community sounding board by removing reference to Bob's work on the Little Hawk training wing that was being discussed there under the subject of "A New Paradigm?".

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... f1739559ae

When it was pointed out how weak and petty this was, Jack posted his 'reasoning'..

No, whats weak and petty is the constant endless attacks from a guy thats gone off the deep end. Months of endless attacks, and when I finally respond, he flips out and plays the victim. Bob has made an enemy of just about everyone and has trashed a long list of good people in the HG community. He's made his bed and people are sick of him and his negative poisonous crap.

This is a bob free zone now. Ive been attacked too much to allow this crap here, ever. End of discussion. His crap is NOT allowed here in any form or fashion. Keep it off this site. That is a site rule and this thread violated it.
_________________

Describing Jack Axaopoulos as weak and petty was being kind..