The hole in Tx's arm where all the $$ goes

[Bill Cummings]

Post by Bill Cummings » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:13 am
Before you all pull the pin maybe you should print this thread and mail it to the landowner. Let the landowner know that 8K is a bit excessive for the pilots and who else would be interested in leasing anywhere near that amount and leave as light of a foot print? (Hill climbing dirt bikes?)

Dear Bill,
Unless you want to get really educated on how Pack works, what we are up against, and are willing to come joining and participate in the operation of Pack, please do not meddle with the negotiations. Even the slight comment you just made on this forum demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the delicateness of these negotiations. For the first time in almost 30 years we may loose Pack. We do not need outside disinterested parties helping to bring that to fruition.
Thanks,
Pilgrim

I apologize for coming up with a suggestion for consideration to preserve “Pack!”

I realize now that trying to keep the lease cost from rising or maybe even trying to reduce the cost of the lease could have the unintended down side of making any party to the lease agreement look cheap, poor, stingy, and/or greedy.

Feeling justifiably admonished I will butt out of the effort to preserve Pack.

Preserve, ----Hey! ---That reminds me of a site we were able to preserve. A club member came up with the brilliant idea to -----Oh Darn there I go again --butting in! ---oops sorry! Never mind.
Bill

[Bob Kuczewski]

Before you all pull the pin maybe you should print this thread and mail it to the landowner. Let the landowner know that 8K is a bit excessive for the pilots and who else would be interested in leasing anywhere near that amount and leave as light of a foot print? (Hill climbing dirt bikes?)

I tend to agree with Bill here. I also agree with points made by both Sam and Pilgrim.

There is a price for anything at which it's better to walk away. That's what makes the free market ... a free market. Sam is right to ask whether $8k/year is at (or above) that price. Pilgrim can certainly hold the opinion that it's worth it, and Sam can hold the opinion that it isn't worth it.

My concern is based on the long run. It's possible that the landowner is just squeezing every drop out of money he can get before raising the rates above what can be afforded. In that case, the money spent is not helping the long-term flying in the region as Sam has suggested. On the other hand, if the landowner is sincere about working with pilots to keep the site open, then Pilgrim may be right.

From what I've seen, I can't tell what the landowner is thinking so I can't tell if the money is being wasted year after year or if it's helping to develop a relationship with the land owner that will last far into the future (decades at least?). Bill's suggestion of asking the landowner to work with the club might give some insight into whether he's just trying to milk another $8k out of the pilots or if he is sincere in working with them to keep the site flying in the long run.

P.S. With regard to Riss, I can only say that I've been disappointed with him in several specific circumstances.

[Pilgrim]

Good morning Gents,
First I would like to apologize to Sam for my stern reply. I guess I just do not react well to folks trash talking our flying sites or what it takes to preserve them. This is especially true given how much effort we put in to keep it alive. You of all folks Sam should understand and appreciate just how difficult it is to keep a flying site up and running. I know for a fact that you have spent countless hours mowing and maintaining the airstrip there for the fly-ins (an event that dearly needs to be revived). We do not begrudge you for working hard on your site (in essence you are spending money when you use your time). Please do not harrass us for working hard to keep ours. Almost everything bad people say about Pack comes directly from the owners' demands. They only want us there for flying. Nothing else. When Mrs. T owned the land directly and camping was allowed, She found a camper on top of the hill with its black water hose just running out on the ground. That was the end of camping at Pack. And trust me when I say camping will never again be allowed by the current owners. (there is ample camping on the lakes that surround Pack). To make it worse and more ironic, the camper was a tresspasser. This is their greatest problem at Pack, Tresspassing. It is an historical site and draws what the owners consider unwanted attention. They are ranchers and it is their land and livelyhood and they consider it their "front yard". They could hardly care less about the paultry eight grand we pay them each year. They get way more than that from hunters and hunting is what ranchers know and love. Also, because they participate in the MLP program, they can hunt the land virtually year round. In other words, we need them and they tolerate us barely. Haven't you had similar proplems with the owner of the land where you had your foot launch Sam? Isn't it a shame that a foot launch site that holds the current PG distance record in Texas has been shut down because the landowner could no longer tolerate the use of his land as a flying site? I do not want Pack to close. It is too much a part of my life and hundreds of pilots past and present. Pack holds a special place in Texas HG history and I hope into the future.

Bill, We could use all the ideas we could get. We do not need folks badgering the owners. They barely tolerate us. And though it may suprise you guys, we actually do talk to the owners. They are personal friends of my family. My ma used to play bridge with Mrs. T. They know they are stretching our resources. That is how business works. Of course they want to get all they can get. The land at Pack is worth millions of dollars. It could be lost to developers at any time. It is truly a blessing that we get to fly there at all. I am very afraid that Pack will be lost this year because the owners want more money than we can come up with as a club. So you guys may end up getting what you appear to want... the end of Pack as a flying site. That it should happen on our watch can bring only shame and dismay. All that being said, we are willing to accept that pilots care so little about our site that they trash talk it and us and refuse to offer any real help.

Should Pack be lost in this manner, I can assure you that it will be reopened by a small group of Pilots who have the resources and determination to keep flying alive there. If that is the way it happens though, Pack would not be available to everyone as it is now.

What I cannot understand at all is why anyone cares or has any right or business to care what I/we spend our money and time on. That is just none of you guys freaking business. You sure as heck do not see me questioning what you spend your hard earned money on. And I sure as heck ain't gonna get permission from anyone on how to spend mine. So you can just drop that ridiculous line of arguing. Besides, I have already pointed out that Pack is incredibly cheap when compared to flight parks or the cost of the equipment we use to fly.

Here is how it works. If you do not like Pack, the just stay the heck away and shut up. If instead you would like to participate in the preserving of the two finest flying sites in central Texas, then work with us, not against us. Any meddling by people in any negotiations with the owners, no matter how well intentioned, can only have deletarious effects. I am a member at several HG clubs around the country. I do not fly many of them. I simply join to help preserve their sites. Why don't you guys feel the same way?

Bottom line, don't mess with our flying site. It ain't right. No true HG pilot should ever work to close a flying site...especially when their efforts are cloaked in misinformation and a complete lack of understanding of what is really going on with keeping the site open.

Very Sincerely,

Pilgrim

[Bob Kuczewski]

I do not want Pack to close. It is too much a part of my life and hundreds of pilots past and present. Pack holds a special place in Texas HG history and I hope into the future.

I also hate to see the loss of any sites. I especially hate to see the loss of any foot-launch sites since I've still got a queasy feeling about towing.

We do not need folks badgering the owners. They barely tolerate us.

But this statement makes me even more queasy. If the site is hanging by a thread ("They barely tolerate us"), then is each year's installment of $8000 helping the long term flying in that region or just providing another year's "flying fix" for those with the money to pay for it?

Maybe this would help answer my concern ... Pilgrim, what are the odds that you think Packsaddle will stay open to flying in the next 5, 10, 20, and 50 years?

By the way, thanks for your thoughtful post.

[SamKellner]

Listen Pilgrim,

I feel like I'm talking to a fence post because you won't introduce yourself to the forum and sure don't impress me with your understanding of the HG scene in Reg11.

Per pilot, Packsaddle Mtn is probably the most expensive flying site in the US. It just don't measure up. That's not an attack, it's ~fact and relevant to Reg11.

As always, you take my criticism as personal or at least an attack on the flying site. You are in error.

I have as much right as anyone, to express what I feel could make Reg11 a more user friendly place to fly. IMO, Packsaddle is not user friendly. The annual non-members who fly there could be ~counted on both hands. Now, that's not an attack on your heavenly flying site. It's a relevent issue about Reg11 and what visiting pilots will experience, or not, when they visit Tx. to fly.

If you and a couple of your local buds want to rent the place, GREAT! Then the other ~50 members can re-direct their ~$250ea, or $12,500. resources elsewhere.

You seem oblivious as to who really is trashing specific flying sites, and the reason someone might be doing so. Someone wants that $250 in THEIR pocket, and will do the lowdown deeds that you are falsely accusing ME of. I suggest you check the new members on the AFFA forum for that someone, who became interested enough to register, when the "loosing pack" topic was posted.

Shut up? Ha! Tell your b**** to shut up.

,
Sam

[Pilgrim]

Evening Bob,
I have to agree about the whole towing thing. Don't get me wrong. My first HG was in the early seventies with a Bill Bennett bird towed behind a century inboard. However, there is just something pure about running off of the earth and transitioning to flight.

To be honest, I do not understand why it makes you queasy when I spend my money. It is my money. I earned it. Why here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, can't I spend my money as I see fit. I really do not understand why that is a problem. It is not like if I did not you would suddenly have more money to spend. The very concept smells too much like forced wealth redistribution. And I am not going down that road.

You ask if the money we pay to lease private land (remember this is not public forest; we are dealing with businessmen not beauracrats) is good for the long term flying in the region or is it just to buy another year's flying fix. The answer is clearly yes. Almost everyone in this area gets the only real ridge, foot launch and thermalling training necessary to become competent pilots, at Pack. Pack is and historically has been the primary new pilot farm for the central Texas area. Only recently are tow parks teaching A/T springing up. They still have to come to Pack to get real foot launched flying experience. There can be no doubt that Pack caters to the foot launch group. Many others have left to form other A/T groups. THS was one of the first. The Society was based out of Hearne and hosted the nationals one year. Hearne is four hours east of here. If you loose Pack, it will cripple the production of Pilots in this area. For those of us who need the fix, it would be worse than when "they took my kodachrome away". Are you kidding? A Half mile plus wide 400 foot high ridge less than an hour away than can send you on the stairway to heaven from its altar of flight? When is free flight ever not a fix for us? If you are willing to drive five hours plus west, there are ridges galore. Here in central Texas, Pack is all we have. And you want us to give it up because folks who don't even go there don't want us to spend our money. Dude I just do not get it.

Bob, you ask what are the odds Pack will remain open. That question scares me now as much as it did 25 years ago. The land is so valuable that it makes the money we pay them look like nothing. I have always felt very lucky that the owners have allowed us to fly and have access to one of the most special places in Texas. So many people want to view the owners as bad or the enemy. I grew up with, know and understand them. They are good honest hard working people who live good lives. May they be Blessed every day for granting us the priviledge to have access to such an incredible altar of flight. Times change however. The almighty dollar moves on. Like so many incredible places before it, I feel Pack will ultimately be doomed to development. And here we sit sqaubling about a few dollars with the myopic vision of a ground worm.

On that happy note, Feliz Navidad and a most maravioso New Year to you all.

Pilgrim

Oh and Sam, I believe you are referring to Joel. I thought that was interesting also. The owners don't like people running a business at Pack for profit. It has been very difficult to even allow instructors to bring their students there. This could become very interesting. And Sam, if I have attacked you personally, I apologize. There can be no doubt that you have done more for hang gliding in your neck of the woods than anyone else. I sincerely appreciate and respect your efforts.

[Bob Kuczewski]

... there is just something pure about running off of the earth and transitioning to flight.

To be honest, I do not understand why it makes you queasy when I spend my money.

What made me queasy was your description of the owners barely tolerating your use of the site. You didn't give me a prediction on how long you thought it would remain a flying site and that makes me even queasier.

Why here in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, can't I spend my money as I see fit. I really do not understand why that is a problem.

It's not a problem, but Sam may be arguing that it might not be the best choice for supporting the long term existence of hang gliding in your region. That's his opinion, and he's voicing it. That's another thing that we do here in America (the land of the free and the home of the brave).

If Sam thinks that the sport would be better off if the resources spent on Packsaddle went somewhere else, then he can certainly argue for that case. If he makes a good case, then he'll sway people, and if he doesn't then he won't. There's nothing unAmerican about that.

I don't know the situation well enough to have an opinion, but I do think that answering the time question is relevant for anyone trying to think this through. I suspect there would be different answers if you predict the site will remain open for less than 5 years versus greater than 50 years. In the first case, it might be wise to start looking at alternatives. In the second case that's less pressing.

I will comment that in my observation, the hang gliding community has left a lot of sites slip through our hands because we assumed they'd always be there. There were times when a purchase or an easement would have been affordable. But in many cases, that time has passed and those sites are gone. Unfortunately, a year-to-year rental doesn't do much to ensure the long term use of the site.

Times change however. The almighty dollar moves on. Like so many incredible places before it, I feel Pack will ultimately be doomed to development. And here we sit sqaubling about a few dollars with the myopic vision of a ground worm.

Actually, I'm not squabbling over a few dollars. I'm asking whether you're doing anything that will actually save that site from being doomed or not. That's the question that still hasn't been answered.

Can you get a "rent to own" deal to eventually earn a permanent easement?

[miguel]

McClure has a $5k/yr rent and around 20 dues paying members. We have a day use fee for non members, and hold fly-ins to make up the rest. It has been working for years. If you have any questions, give me a pm.

[SamKellner]

Miguel,

I think that is uh apples and oranges comparison. The pilot population taken into account, the cost of the site is even more rediculous.

The way I see it, there are 20 pilots in your area that choose to rent a local site, McClure, rather than drive a few more miles to the next available flying site.

Here at the only FL site in Reg11, Tx. and La., it takes > 20% of all the pilots in the region, "miles and miles of Tx", to fund the single site.

It's obvious why Pilgrim is so committed to keep the site open since it is in his "back yard".

for me pack hase been an expense place to go meditate.thanks james lepard

But like this quote from one of the not so local pilots, you can see how ~75% of the members fund the site for the 25% frequent users.

,
Sam

[Pilgrim]

Good morning,
I hope everyone had a pleasant Christmass and vistit with family.

Sam, as you are aware, AFFA has a deeply discounted membership rate for distant pilots. Also, if you are out of state, you only pay a day use fee. The fact is that the local pilots at Pack pay over ninety percent of the dues. Not the other way as you stated. Just the facts. James has never done much to support Pack. He has only been a member a few years, and has never brought any food or drinks to the fly-ins. He does however complain a lot. Just the facts.

Now Sam, I have addressed everyone of your inquiries. How about responding to some I have raised about Leakey. Don't worry, I will not be holding my breath waiting for a response. Besides, I already know the answers.

The yearly system of leasing Pack has worked for thirty years. Bill you ask me to predict the future. I am not God. But my bet is that Pack will soon be lost forever for flying. Then all of you ill wishers and nay sayers can dance with joy that yet another flying site is lost...especially the one those A-holes in Austin and San Antonio use. I hope that cures your queasiness.

Bill, I understand that there is freedom of expression here in this Country, but you and Sam still avoid and refuse to answer the simple question:

"What business is it of yours what we spend our money on?"

You will just have to excuse us if we fail to kill Pack as a flying site as ya'll seem to wish so that you and Sam can celebrate the loss of our only flying site. What a bunch of selfish nonsense. I guess the next step, after we kill Pack, is we start paying for your flying site so you can fly while we are grounded. Again, nonsense.

As to purchasing an easement or the property outright. The cost of the first is formidable. The property itself is worth $8.4 million. Do you want to loan us the money? The fact is the property is not for sale. Got any other ideas. Make them good because we have been working on it for 30 years. And some of us actually have a sixth grade education.

I just continue to be amazed at how a few outsidders with no real history of supporting or flying Pack have all the answers when those of us who have busted our butts for decades and ponied up our hard earned resources are just a bunch of idiots that don't have a clue.

Completely disgusted,

Pilgrim