[Bob Kuczewski]

Getting the SDHGPA On Board

As soon as I knew that the AMA was involved, I anticipated that the rebirth of the Soaring Council was destined to happen. So it was time to see if the San Diego Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (mostly a paragliding association) would participate as well. My first order of business was to find out when they met. On February 15th I wrote to Steve Rohrbaugh (SDHGPA President) and Tad Hurst (listed as an SDHGPA official):

Hello Steve and Tad,

Is there an updated SDHGPA meeting list/schedule available? I didn't see it on the club site. Also, the site shows my old rating. I finished up my P4 last spring so the club roster should show:

Kuczewski Bob H4/P4

Thanks,
Bob K.

Tad Hurst replied the next day (February 16th, 2007):

Neither Steve nor I are on the BOD this year. The web site stuff is off of my plate (at least at the moment)

The next meeting is next Wed. at Di Chan restaraunt in Clairemnont Mesa 6PM

That was the February 21st, 2007 meeting of the SDHGPA. I attended that meeting and it changed the course of my life.

[Bob Kuczewski]

SDHGPA Meeting (February 21st, 2007) and subsequent suppression of the Lease

It was an informal meeting of maybe a dozen members around a few tables, and my intention was to mostly observe. There was a somewhat heated discussion about losing the Blossom launch because the land owner was thinking of developing it after having allowed its use as a launch for a long time. The discussion included ideas about adverse possession of an easement and other legal means to retain the launch. I remember the discussion because I was also caught up in thinking about how to hold on to the site against the landowner's will. Then someone spoke up with the sobering observation that it was the landowner's property, and the landowner had been kind enough to allow us free use for all these years. Were we going to "reward" the landowner's kindness with legal threats? I don't remember who said that, but it certainly changed my own perspective and the discussion of legal action subsided.

At some point during the meeting, I had introduced myself to one of the other members and mentioned very briefly my interest in the Soaring Council. As the meeting progressed, I decided not to bring it up ... but my confidant wasn't aware of my decision and brought up the topic of the Soaring Council as the meeting was drawing to a close. This was only my second SDHGPA meeting, but I had flown with some of the pilots there, so I wasn't a complete stranger. I mentioned that the Torrey Pines Soaring Council might be meeting again and I asked if we had a representative. Dave Metzgar (SDHGPA president at that time) asked if I was interested in the job. I said I was, and he said that would be fine. I asked if there were any formalities about accepting the appointment and he replied that he'd look into it. That was the end of the discussion and the meeting adjourned shortly afterward.

I went home that night (February 21st, 2007) and sent a confirmation message to Dave Metzgar and most of the SDHGPA Board:

Hello Dave (cc Board Members et al),

Thanks for the potential assignment to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. Please let me know what the by-laws say about whether that would be an appointed position or an elected position and how to proceed in either case.

Thanks,
Bob K.

Tad Hurst replied that same evening (February 21st, 2007) writing:

The soaring council is probably defunct at this point. Still it is good to have someone appointed to it, just in case some one wants to revive it.

Recently, the founder of that ad hoc council, Larry Fogel, died. Mostly that group was there as a way for Larry to try to control what happened at the Gliderport. The city is obvisouly dealing with Dave Jebb without the input of the Soaring Council, since it has not met is two or more years.

- tad

I replied to Tad and the rest of the Board that I knew how to contact (Dave Metzgar, Steve Rohrbaugh, Bill Helliwell, Roger Marsh, Josh Gelb, Rich Regal, Bret Daniel):

Hello Tad, Dave, and others,

Page 1 of the lease agreement between the City of San Diego and Air Adventure LLC states:
     :
     WHEREAS, Flight Director/LESSEE will maintain rules and
     regulations governing flight and personal conduct at Torrey Pines
     Gliderport, and;

     WHEREAS, Flight Director/LESSEE will consult with the Torrey
     Pines Soaring Council, which represents all soaring groups, in forming
     the above mentioned rules and regulations.
     :
It seems to me from this passage that maintaining the rules is an ongoing process that requires an ongoing consultation with the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. While that organization may have fallen into disrepair, I believe that it still has standing with regard to the agreement between Air Adventure LLC and the City of San Diego.

But as you said, even without that standing, the SDHGPA should have someone appointed to that position anyway.

Bob K.

My quote from the lease appeared to have piqued a few interests. I got several private requests from SDHGPA board members (including SDHGPA Vice President Bret Daniel himself) for me to send them a copy of the lease. I responded to a few of them, but unfortunately, my copy consisted of scanned images which took a long time to send as email messages (especially in those days of much slower internet speeds). So on March 1st, 2007, I wrote to Bret and some of the other SDHGPA board members:

Hello Bret, Rich, and Others,

I've received several requests for a full copy of the Torrey Pines Gliderport lease, so I have taken the time to scan in all 30+ pages. It contains about 5MB of GIFs, and is not well handled by some email clients (including mine). I have sent a copy to Rich Regal (email address removed), and I haven't heard back from him regarding any problems.

So rather than sending them on a case by case basis, could I ask Rich (acting as a member of the board) to have the lease posted on the club web site. It is a public document, and seems to be of considerable interest to the club at this time. Since Josh is the club webmaster, maybe he could then notify all interested parties (including myself) when this has been done. I can send Josh a copy directly if this helps to hasten the process.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

The initial response was encouraging. Josh Gelb (their webmaster) wrote back that same day (March 1st, 2007):

If you send it to me I can post it on the site.
    Josh

I sent a copy immediately, and then followed up with this reply:

Hello Josh,

It should be on its way. I sent it to yourself, Bret, and Rich (since they both requested copies). I also stitched together some HTML pages that I'll try to send to you, Bret, and Rich in a separate message (to follow). The HTML creates a simple frames interface that allows you to select a page for display. The images were scanned at a fairly high resolution, so they could be sized down to save space. They were also scanned in black and white which should also keep the file sizes down.

Bob K.

That was sent around 4:50pm. By 5:16, SDHGPA Vice President Bret Daniel was already trying to put a lid on it:

NO!

The SDHGPA should/will not post the Torrey Lease information on the web site. This is a conflict of interest. The club in no way is involved in this matter and should not promote, broadcast or show bias in any form.

Bob, please make alternate arrangements if you wish this to be published on a web site.

-Bret

Now that was funny. Bret (and a few other officers) had asked me to send them a copy of the lease (a public document), but they didn't want their members to see that same document. I replied to Bret and the other board members:

Hello Bret and all,

I'm sorry. I was just trying to be kind to people's "in" boxes since the version I have is nearly 5MB in size.

I should also state that I didn't go searching for a place to post the lease. You asked me for a copy and at least one other club member asked as well. I began by just sending them via email to those (like yourself) who requested them, but this became burdensome because of the size. For that reason I suggested a posting on the club web site. Josh was only trying to be helpful as far as I can tell. Furthermore, the lease information is publicly available, and is as important to the club as any land use agreements that govern our use of flying sites.

Since I've already sent you a copy, would you mind passing them on to anyone who asks? That would be helpful to me.

Thanks,
Bob K.

A little while later, Steve Rohrbaugh (former SDHGPA president) joined Bret in suppressing the posting of the lease:

Hi,

Posting the lease on the web site is not a good idea. Too many reasons to list . . . even if it is a public document.

Thanks

Steve

As far as I know, the SDHGPA never did post a copy of that lease. Eventually, I decided to create a web site dedicated to returning some pilot control to the site and I posted the lease in the "Documents" section of the TakeBackTorrey.com web site at: http://takebacktorrey.com/docs/lease/LEASE.HTM.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Passing of a Legend

I got Tad Hurst's message about the passing of Larry Fogel just before midnight on February 21st, 2007. I sent my condolences to Gary immediately afterward at 12:21am (just after midnight) on February 22nd:

Hello Gary,

I'm sorry that I just heard from Tad Hurst about the passing of your father. I've read your book from cover to cover, and I should hope that you made him very proud of you. You were both very fortunate to have shared the love of flying and to have been able to share so much of your lives. I think I will call my own father in Pennsylvania first thing in the morning.

Best Regards,
Bob Kuczewski

Gary responded the next morning:

Bob,
Thanks for the note, not much time to respond at the moment but thanks for the kind words and your efforts to reinvigorate the soaring council. I'm beginning to think that SDHGPA should assign you as their rep...
Gary

I did call my father that day, and we did have a good long talk. I replied to Gary later that day (February 22nd, 2007):

Gary,

Thanks for the reply, and I'm again sorry about the circumstances.

I did call my father this morning (which I don't do often enough), and we spoke for an hour and a half about everything from our old fishing trips to the future prospects of the United States of America. As I said, I don't call him often enough. Thanks for that gift.

As for the Soaring Council, I asked to be appointed at the SDHGPA meeting last night, and I haven't heard back yet. It's true that I am much more of a hang glider / paraglider than I am an RC modeller, but I think the root problems at Torrey are common to pilots of all wings.

In the long run, I don't think it matters so much who wears which hat, as long as all the hats are full of heads in the right places.

Thanks once again for your time, and please don't feel the need to respond to anything anytime. I'll continue to add you to my CC list if you like, but I won't be offended at all if I don't hear from you for a long, long time.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

[Bob Kuczewski]

Torrey Pines Gulls Meeting

Around the time when I was waiting for the SDHGPA meeting and appointment approval, I was still flying with (and learning from) some of the RC pilots. At one point I mentioned my interest in the Soaring Council, and it was suggested that I should attend a Torrey Pines Gulls Board meeting to bring up the topic. It was a great suggestion, and I attended the meeting in Rancho Bernardo. I introduced myself along with my interest in hang gliding, paragliding, and RC flying. I proceeded to bring up the topic of the Soaring Council, and the topic was well-received by the Board. There was even a suggestion that I should be their representative. Here's one of the email messages from the club's President (Cliff Hunter) to myself and much of the Gulls Board dated February 22nd, 2007:

Bob,
I agree - we need the interest back and you appear to be the one. Let us know what we can do to help get the Torrey Pines Soaring Council.

Cliff Hunter

I replied that same day (February 22nd, 2007):

Thanks Cliff,

I am waiting to hear back from the San Diego Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (SDHGPA) since I've inquired about their seat as well. In the mean time, do you know what the procedure is for appointment to that position within the Gulls? Is it simply an appointment by the President? By the Board? Does it require any vote? I'm not that familiar with the club's by-laws to know these answers. Please let me know when you can.

Thanks again,
Bob K.

As time moved on, I began to hear of other people interested in the Gulls seat on the Soaring Council, and I knew that my real interest was in hang gliding and paragliding. So on February 26th, I wrote to Cliff Hunter (President of the Gulls), the Gulls Board, and some of the SDHGPA leadership (including their President, Dave Metzgar):

Hello Cliff, (cc Gulls Board Members, SDHGPA President, and others),

I haven't heard back yet from the SDHGPA about my appointment to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. However, since I did get a verbal indication of intent, I think I can safely assume that they will follow through with the formalities. As a result, I will be unable to accept the assignment to that position from the Torrey Pines Gulls. Instead I recommend that Alan Butler be assigned to that position. Alan has been helpful to me in learning to fly RC planes, he has a love of that site, and he has also expressed an interest in the position. Please make this assignment as soon as possible (even if only an interim assignment) so that we may hold a meeting of the Torrey Pines Soaring Council this week.

Thanks in advance,
Bob Kuczewski

Declining the Gull's appointment to the Council was the right thing for me to do. I enjoyed flying RCs, and I'll probably be flying them long after my launching/landing gear (legs) have grounded me at Torrey. But each sport needed a representative who was passionate and dedicated to their sport - I would make a far better hang gliding or paragliding representative than an RC representative.

[Bob Kuczewski]

About Face by SDHGPA President David Metzgar

Although I hadn't heard anything from Dave Metzgar since my inquiry on the 21st, he was quick to reply to my assumption that he would follow through with the appointment that he had granted at the meeting. He replied to myself and the SDHGPA Board with the following message on February 26th (after getting my reply to Cliff). Dave Metzgar wrote:

Bob,
I will not make a decision on the appointment until the next meeting. Others have expressed interest. Please do not assume anything.
Cheers,
Dave

I was shocked that Dave was going back on his word. I replied almost immediately on February 26th:

Dave (and others),

That's not what I recall from the meeting. I thought the club was going to look into the formalities of the position per the club by-laws and then take that action. Furthermore, it's been a long time that the seat's been vacant and no one seems to have expressed an interest until I brought it up.

What's going on here?

Bob

Of course, I knew what was going on there. Word had gotten back to David Jebb that the Soaring Council was being restarted and he wasn't going to have control. So he pulled the puppet strings on Dave Metzgar and Dave began to dance. Here was David Metzgar's reply (copied to much of the SDHGPA Board) on February 26th, 2007:

Others have expressed interest. I appreciate your interest in the position, and that interest has rekindled the interests of other parties. It is a subject better discussed at the next meeting, when all the interested parties are present, rather than by e-mail, phone, or other limited forms of communication. I appreciate your aggressive pursuit of the issue, but it is not something that can be decided without consideration and input. I am receiving input, it will be considered at the next meeting, then I will make my decision. I would ask for further input from you at this time:

Given the long period of disinterest (which I assume included your own), why do you take such a sudden and active interest in the subject, and why specifically are you in such a hurry? The answers to these questions would go a long way towards helping me consider the issue.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave's message made it clear that he was going back on his word and most of the SDHGPA Board was going along with him. That would have been a good time to start the Torrey Hawks right then, but I continued to try to have some faith in the SDHGPA. I answered Dave's questions in a response sent a short time later on February 26th, 2007:

Hello Dave (cc other interested parties),

Thanks for your quick reply.

You are correct that the seat has been vacant for a long time, but I would turn your question around and ask why none of the other interested parties have expressed an interest in all that time. I don't think I was stopping them.

As for my "sudden" interest, I have several responses:

First, I am a relatively new pilot. I had flown hang gliders briefly (late 70's) and paragliders briefly (early 90's), but I have only been a serious pilot in the last three years. It has taken me much of that time to earn my ratings and to observe the operations of various clubs and businesses around the country. I also only recently obtained my RC signoff at Torrey (this fall), and only now do I think I have the qualifications (H4/P4/RC) to do justice to the position.

Second, I have taken the time to listen to the many other pilots (of all wings) over these years to fully understand the problems and perspectives related to this site. If you talk to these pilots, you'll find that I have been asking about how to resolve these problems for a long time now. But to be honest, many pilots are afraid to speak out for fear of losing their flying privileges at the site. I've had my fun at Torrey, and now I am willing to take that risk. I have no vested interests other than seeing that Torrey Pines be a place where pilots of all wings can experience both the joys and responsibilities of soaring flight without fear of persecution.

Third, there is a pilot who feels that he is currently unable to fly at Torrey. I don't know the whole story, and I can't say whether his suspension is justified or not. However, I can say that he has nowhere to turn for an impartial hearing of his case (other than the City of San Diego). This is unfair, and the injustice weighs heavily on my conscience for every day that I've delayed in taking some kind of action. This also brings me to a response to Tad's earlier email where he said:

      "The city is obvisouly dealing with Dave Jebb without the input of the
      Soaring Council, since it has not met [in] two or more years."

If the City is dealing with Dave Jebb, then that implies that the City is the only place to go for a redress of grievances. This is not in the best interests of that site. I believe that the Torrey Pines Soaring Council needs to provide an IMPARTIAL venue for all parties to reach binding conclusions without having to involve the City of San Diego. And that brings me to yet another point. I have heard rumors that I was the one who "squealed" to the City about various violations at Torrey Pines. I have not. I have obtained a copy of the lease, and I have attended City Council meetings, but I have not reported anything to the City regarding the Gliderport operations. If the City is hearing about these violations, I suspect there are many disgruntled sources willing to provide that information. Again, this makes a case for an impartial Soaring Council where these matters can be resolved without involving the City. If we don't provide that venue (or provide only a puppet venue) then the City will continue to hear these complaints which jeopardizes the site's future.

Finally, we only have our memories as to what was actually said at the SDHGPA meeting, and I admit that mine is as fallible as any. That's why I've always preferred to rely on written communication where the record is clear and we are all properly represented and quoted. If there are other people who would like to participate, please send me their addresses, and I'll be happy to include them.

Thanks for your time, and I apologize for the length.
Bob Kuczewski

My message fell on deaf ears. Dave Metzgar had already been given his "direction" by Jebb, and he just needed to figure a way to squirm out of the commitment he had made to me at the SDHGPA meeting. He ended up holding a mock election to choose Gabe Jebb (David Jebb's son) as the SDHGPA representative. The show of hands vote was held at an SDHGPA meeting attended by David Jebb, his wife, and most if not all of their staff. They packed the room with their students who were essentially told they were voting to save Torrey Pines. Doug Poirier and Tad Hurst stood up and accused me of "turning in" the Jebb's on their violations of Coastal Commission regulations even though I had no knowledge or participation in that prosecution. In that environment - dominated by Jebb and his henchmen, very few people had the backbone to stand up and vote against Gabe Jebb with a show of hands (even though I pointed out that Gabe Jebb was disqualified from Soaring Council service by his conflict of interest). In the end, four people had the courage to raise their hands against David Jebb and vote for me against his son (I will always remember their courage). They were John Heiney, Glen Phillips, Ernie Casco, and myself. The overwhelming majority voted for Gabe Jebb who was, in fact, unable to serve on the Council due to his obvious conflict of interest as I had pointed out in the meeting.

But that's getting ahead of things. Back on February 26th, it still wasn't clear if there was even going to be a Soaring Council.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Getting the Council to Meet

As I began seeing Dave Metzgar and the SDHGPA leadership having their strings pulled by David Jebb, I began worrying that the slowly reviving Soaring Council might be cut out of the lease before it could be reconstituted. After all, the Soaring Council hadn't met in years, many of its members had passed away, and David Jebb was pushing to have his hand-picked "TPPA" take over that role at the Gliderport. In fact, the Soaring Council had been "defunct" for so long, that any group of representatives might have started meeting and calling themselves the "Torrey Pines Soaring Council".

So I was desperate to get the Council meeting again. At that time, Joe, Alan, Gary, and myself were the only actual (or even "tentative") appointees to the Council. I wrote to them and several others on February 26th, 2007:

Hello Joe, Alan, Gary, and other interested parties,

I would like to hold a meeting of the Torrey Pines Soaring Council this week. As far as I know, Joe, Alan, Gary, and myself are the only active (or candidate) representatives. Please let me know if there are others so that I might invite them as well. I've included the last known list of representatives below (from the web site).

The purpose of the meeting will be to simply reestablish the Soaring Council as an active organization. We may also discuss how to further "bootstrap" the Council by contacting other member organizations.

Please let me (and the others) know what blocks of time are available for you, and we can hopefully find a time and place suitable for all. I am available any time this week. I do have something scheduled for Wednesday the 28th, but I will glady reschedule that if needed to accommodate your schedules.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

===============================
http://www.tpghs.org/SoaringCouncil.html
Current Representatives on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council

United States Hang Gliding Association:
San Diego Hang Gliding Association: Alan Chuculate
Academy of Model Aeronautics: Larry Fogel
Torrey Pines Gulls Radio Controlles Soaring Society: Steve Condon
Torrey Pines Scale Soaring Society: Carl Gwartney
Soaring Society of America: Gary Fogel
Associated Glider Clubs of Southern California: Mark Meader

Joe Holtzman (AMA Representative) wrote back that same day (February 26th, 2007):

Bob:

I have no time this week for a council meeting. In addition with Larry Fogels\'s memorial Sunday I think any meeting should be held off until I have a chance to talk to Rich Hansen at the AMA. I will not be available for a meeting this week.

Joe Holtzman

Cliff Hunter (President of the Gulls) responded later that same evening:

To All Board members see the attached agenda and review the below
information.

Bob and Board Members,

In answer to your question Bob - The Torrey pines Board needs to bless & confirm your position and vote and give you direction. Also Mike Lance is our slope coordinator and has been on business for the last several months and is interested and being involved with the Soaring Council which is his position as the slope coordinator. The meeting would best occur at our next Board meeting where interest parties would attend our next Board meeting. The date is March 8, 2007 at 7:00 pm at Rancho Santa Fe Fire Station #1. See agenda for direction.

Mike Lance please inform others interested members of this meeting from the slope soaring group.

Cliff Hunter

A couple days later (February 28th) Parviz asked for clarification on my position:

Hi Bob,

In your last mail to Cliff, it sounded like you are not going to pursue the soaring council position. Did I misunderstand? What happened? I also gave Angelo your phone number last weekend. He was interested in talking to you about that.

Parviz

I replied the next day (March 1st, 2007) with an explanation:

Hello my Friend,

First, I'm sorry that I misspelled your name in that earlier message. Maybe I'm subconsciously absorbing John's pronunciation. : )

I don't know if I'm pursuing the position or not at this point. One of the SDHGPA members wrote me a message that included this:

    Bob,
      :
    The apparently small can of worms you opened
    [regarding the Soaring Council] has blossomed
    into a bait farm.

I got a good laugh from that.

My position is very simple. I want some organization out there to act as a place for all Torrey Pines pilots to get justice. The mere existence of that organization would make flying at Torrey much more enjoyable. Now I really don't want to have to lift a finger to make that happen, and I have no political aspirations (at this time). If someone else wants to do that job, then I'm very happy to reap their benefits. But if no one else shares that vision, then it's probably my turn to carry this burden for a little while.

I also feel, in all fairness, that my background is better qualified to represent hang glider pilots (and paraglider pilots) than to represent RC pilots. I would like to think that I could be objective to all groups, but we are all subject to our own human nature. The ideal of fairness is common to all forms of flight, but the interpretation might be biased with respect to each flying perspective.

I guess the answer is that I'm waiting for more information before I decide what to do.

Thanks for all you've given me,
Bob K.

It turned out that Mike Lance was very eager to take the position on the Council and I didn't object.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Remembrance for Dr. Lawrence J. Fogel

On March 1st, Gary Fogel sent me a notice of the Remembrance for his father:

Dr. Lawrence J. Fogel

Dr. Lawrence J. Fogel passed away early in the morning on February 18, 2007 of complications from renal failure. Among so many other things, Larry was a pioneering computer scientist and inventor, an accomplished musician, and he enjoyed his hobbies of radio-controlled soaring and sailing. His contributions to science and humanity were recognized internationally both by professional organizations and individuals alike. He is survived by his wife, Eva; sons, David and Gary; daughters-in-law, Jacquelyn and Joanne; and grandchildren, Jonathan, Skyler, and Sabrina.

Please join the Fogel family as they celebrate Larry's life. The remembrance will be held promptly at 2:00pm on Sunday, March 4th at the:

Catamaran Resort Hotel
3999 Mission Boulevard
San Diego, CA 92109
http://www.catamaranresort.com

I attended the remembrance and paid my respects for all that Larry had done to protect our flying at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. It was a stirring tribute as people from various walks of Dr. Fogel's life spoke eloquently in his memory. I wrote to Gary the day after the remembrance with my thanks:

Hello Gary,

Thank you very much for inviting me to your father's memorial service. It was inspirational to see what one man can accomplish in his life. I hope I will be able to remember that inspiration when I need it in my own life.

I will be sending Joe Holtzman a follow up message requesting to attend the next Soaring Council meeting, and I'll include you as well. Please don't feel the need to reply or expend any effort on this. I thank you and your father so much already for your work in keeping the Soaring Council alive through many difficult times.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

[Bob Kuczewski]

Back to Pushing for the Council to Meet

On March 5th, 2007, I renewed my efforts to get the Soaring Council to meet with this letter to Joe Holtzman (copies to Gary Fogel, Rich Hanson, and others):

Hello Joe (cc Gary, Alan, and Rich),

I'm sorry that I missed meeting you at Dr. Larry Fogel's memorial yesterday, but I was able to meet both of Larry's sons along with Rich Hanson of the AMA. I'm also sorry that my earlier request to attend a Soaring Council meeting was poorly timed with regard to Dr. Fogel's passing. I had been officially asking about attending a Soaring Council meeting through my own club (the Gulls) since mid-December, and I apologize that my follow-up requests were inappropriately timed with regard to Dr. Fogel and his family.

Having said that, I remain interested in attending the next Soaring Council meeting as soon as possible. As far as I can tell, your recent appointment makes you the most active member of that group. Please let me know when such a meeting might take place. I will continue to work through my own local clubs (Torrey Pines Gulls, and San Diego Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association) to have new appointments made as soon as possible.

Thank you for your time,
Bob Kuczewski
AMA # 871776

Joe wrote back that same day (March 5th, 2007):

Bob:

Sorry I missed you yesterday also. I talked to Rich and we are going to talk later this week. I believe it is important to have the city attend any meeting and Gary and I will talk Wednesday on who the key players from the city should be. I will keep you informed once some of thes items are handled.

Keep on pushing to get your assignment from your folks,

Joe Holtzman

At that time I had begun working out a "position paper" for how the Soaring Council should function with regard to the City and the user groups (pilots). So I replied to Joe with my thinking regarding whether the City of San Diego needed to be a participant in the Soaring Council or not:

Hi Joe (cc Gary),

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I will keep pushing the local clubs, but not so much for myself as for anyone (including myself) with a fair vision for the Gliderport. In that regard, I am drafting a "position paper" to describe my own vision for the relationships between the City, the Lessee, and the Soaring Council. As I see it, these are the three distinct parties to the lease which grants flying privileges to all pilots at the Gliderport. Any such taxonomy will be deficient in representing some relationships, but I think this is the best grouping of interests I can conjure:

     - The City of San Diego (and its citizens) provide the park
     - The Lessee manages and profits (monetarily) from the park
     - The pilots (and clubs of pilots) use the park

The lease represents an agreement between the first two parties with the implied goal of benefiting the third party and to some extent each other. The third party (pilots) are represented by the Soaring Council:

     "WHEREAS, Flight Director/LESSEE will consult with the Torrey
     Pines Soaring Council, which represents all soaring groups, in
     forming the above mentioned rules and regulations."

As I interpret this, the City is not really part of the Soaring Council because the Soaring Council is meant to represent "all soaring groups" and I don't think the City is such a group. Similarly, I don't think the Lessee is a part of the Soaring Council because the Lessee should "consult with" the Soaring Council. Having said that, I do think it's wise to invite both the City and the Lessee as advisors, but I don't see them as having voting seats on the Council. I think they each wield sufficient power on their own and don't need additional representation.

But maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly. I haven't read the Soaring Council charter or by-laws or other official documents. If you can help me here, please make suggestions.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

This position paper eventually evolved into an email message titled "A Vision for the Torrey Pines Soaring Council" which is published below.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Bob's Vision - March 16th, 2007

As my effort to revive the Soaring Council grew, I began to feel the need to state what it was that I was trying to accomplish. By March 16th, 2007, I had evolved the following statement (titled: "A Vision for the Torrey Pines Soaring Council") which I distributed to the SDHGPA board members and many other pilots. I was concerned about being quoted out of context, so I enclosed the bulk of the message in a copyright notice granting the right to redistribute the message in its entirety.

Hello SDHGPA Board Members and other interested parties,

In preparation for next week's meeting, I've drafted the following vision for the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. You may distribute or post it as described in the copyright notice below.

I request that the SDHGPA circulate this among the club members either via an emailing or a posting on the site so that these ideas can be discussed at the next meeting (94th Aero Squadron on the 21st).

I also ask individual board members (acting as general members), to distribute this message to their own circles of friends within the club and in other clubs who might be interested.

Thank you,
Bob Kuczewski

=====================================================
Begin Copyright Notice: Copyright (c) 2007, Bob Kuczewski
The right to copy, post, and distribute this message in its undivided entirety (including the Begin Copyright and End Copyright notices) is granted to all. This copyright notice must remain with each such distribution or posting, and the enclosed text must remain unmodified and undivided.
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Fellow Pilots of all Wings,

I have piloted hang gliders, paragliders, remote controlled gliders and even full scale airplanes through the airspace at Torrey Pines Gliderport. I would like to make the following suggestions which I believe would benefit all such groups. If you endorse these ideas, then please support those members and officers of your own club who similarly share this vision.

Bob Kuczewski's Suggestions:

• The Torrey Pines Soaring Council should be reconstituted as an organization representing all pilot interests at the Torrey Pines Gliderport (as directed in the Gliderport lease).
  
• The Torrey Pines Soaring Council should seek to become the "Court of First Appeal" for all flight-related disputes at the Gliderport (as might be interpreted from the lease).
  
• The Torrey Pines Soaring Council might consider seeking the Lease of the Gliderport in conjunction with hiring a commercial organization (such as the current lessee) to manage the day to day operations.

Please discuss these ideas (and the supporting material below) among your peers, and suggest these ideas as topics of discussion at your club meetings. Please pass this message along to peers and club officers in support of those discussions. This message may be passed along to any interested party, and I welcome all feedback at my email address below.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Member: USHPA, SDHGPA, AMA, Torrey Pines Gulls

[old email address deleted]

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Background and Supporting Discussion [footnotes below]:

The Torrey Pines Gliderport is a San Diego Historical site owned by the City of San Diego which desires to maintain it as "a historical non-powered flight park" [1]. In order to fulfill this desire, the flight park is leased to a private enterprise at no monetary cost [2]. The lessee is required to provide a full-time flight director, to maintain the property, and to provide four portable toilets [3]. The lessee must also maintain various insurance policies (some of which are supplied by flight clubs using the park) [4]. The lessee is required to consult with the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (which represents all soaring user groups) in forming the rules and regulations governing flight and personal conduct at the park [5].

This lease identifies 3 principle parties:

• The City of San Diego (and its citizens) who provides the park
• The Lessee who manages and profits (monetarily) from the park
• The user groups of the park (represented by the Soaring Council)

The lease itself is between the first two (City and the Lessee) [6], but its "Recitals" section [7] includes the third party of user groups and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. It seems clear that Suggestion #1 (Reconstitute the Soaring Council) is supported by the lease itself. It is also clear that the Soaring Council is intended to represent user groups and not the City or the Lessee. While the Soaring Council should certainly invite input from these other parties, its intended role in the lease is to represent user groups (clubs). For this reason, all clubs should take care to choose representatives who are free from any conflicts of interest and who properly represent the interests of their club membership.

Suggestion #2 is slightly more controversial for at least two reasons. First, it places a greater burden on the Soaring Council to become an active participant in flight-related disputes. Unfortunately, this burden must rest somewhere, and there are no other parties to the lease with both the impartiality and the expertise to resolve these disputes. The lessee has a clear monetary conflict of interest, and the City has neither the time nor the expertise to resolve these matters. Second, Suggestion #2 requires an interpretation of the lease that grants the Soaring Council an extended role in not only forming the rules and regulations, but also in determining if those rules and regulations have been broken. I would assert that such a case by case determination is, in fact, part of the rule-making process itself. Each Supreme Court decision, for example, becomes a virtual law of the land based on the ongoing interpretation of individual cases. The Soaring Council (acting in this manner) would be better able to consult and advise on rules and regulations at the site based on the evolving needs (and conflicts) at the site. Additionally, the ability for pilots of all wings to have an impartial hearing of their grievances by the Soaring Council would benefit the City, the lessee, and the flight sports themselves by not escalating such disputes to the City Council forum.

Suggestion #3 is even more controversial and addresses the grander issue of how to best structure the management of a publicly-owned flying site. The current lease is clearly given to a for-profit company which can then exclude all competing commercial interests and even suppress competing non-commercial interests. I believe the City recognized the "fox guarding the hen house" potential of this situation and added the Soaring Council as a "check and balance" against an otherwise unrestrained profit motive in conflict with the public interest. Unfortunately, this safeguard has proven ineffective in recent years. It is my understanding that the Soaring Council has been disregarded by the lessee, and has not had sufficient standing with the City to be an effective safeguard of the public's interest. I believe this could be reversed if the Soaring Council held the lease on the Gliderport and then contracted the operations management to a company like the current lessee. This would provide an oversight body with both real authority over the operations management company and with the expertise to properly wield that authority in the public interest. While the City of San Diego currently holds that authority, I do not believe they have the expertise or the time to provide competent oversight of the lessee.

In conclusion, I feel that the intention of the lease is to provide for competent management of a flight park designed for the enjoyment of pilots and sight-seers alike. I further believe that the Torrey Pines Soaring Council should provide the key interdisciplinary oversight of that lease necessary for safe and enjoyable flight for all pilots, and an enjoyable experience for all visitors.

Bob Kuczewski
Member: USHPA, SDHGPA, AMA, Torrey Pines Gulls

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Notes:

The document referred to as the "Gliderport Lease" or "Lease" is formally known as DOCUMENT NO. RR290676. Its title is:

     THE CITY OF SAN DIEGO
     Flat Rate Lease
     with
     AIR CALIFORNIA ADVENTURE, LLC
     FOR TORREY PINES GLIDERPORT
     LOCATED AT THE
     TORREY PINES CITY PARK

It is available through the City of San Diego's Real Estate Assets department.

[1] Gliderport Lease, RECITALS, page 1
[2] Gliderport Lease, Section 3.1, pages 5 and 6
[3] Gliderport Lease, Section 3.1, pages 5 and 6
[4] Gliderport Lease, Section 5, pages 10 through 14
[5] Gliderport Lease, RECITALS, page 1
[6] Gliderport Lease, City of San Diego Flat Rate Lease, page 1
[7] Gliderport Lease, RECITALS, page 1
===========================================
Recitals from the Gliderport Lease:

This section repeats the first 4 paragraphs of the "Recitals" on page 1 of the Gliderport lease (DOCUMENT NO. RR290676):

     WHEREAS, The Torrey Pines Gliderport is a San
     Diego City Historical site and is on the National
     Register of Historic Places, the State Register of
     Historic Sites, and dedicated a National Soaring
     Landmark, and;

     WHEREAS, CITY and Flight Director/LESSEE desire
     to maintain Torrey Pines Gliderport as a historical
     non-powered flight park, and;

     WHEREAS, Flight Director/LESSEE will maintain
     rules and regulations governing flight and personal
     conduct at Torrey Pines Gliderport, and;

     WHEREAS, Flight Director/LESSEE will consult
     with the Torrey Pines Soaring Council, which
     represents all soaring user groups, in forming the
     above mentioned rules and regulations.

=====================================================
End Copyright Notice.
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This message was sent over 5 years ago (as of this posting) and it's just as relevant now as it was then.

The message quoted above was made public on March 16th, but it was reviewed by a number of people leading up to its publication. In fact, I had communicated much of this to Ken Baier in the following exchange:

Hi Ken,

I've been working on trying to get the Torrey Pines Soaring Council going again, and I've put together a draft document that attempts to describe my vision for that project. I'd like to get your input if you have the time. I'll call back in about 15 minutes to talk about it.

Thanks always for the last three years of flying ... and many more.
Bob K.

Bob,
Got your message, the mail address is correct. Thanks for giving a hoot and including me in the discussion!
Ken Baier

Hi Ken,

The Soaring Council idea seems to be getting a lot of attention suddenly. My favorite quote so far came from an SDHGPA board member who wrote:

    Bob,
         :
    The apparently small can of worms you opened
    [regarding the Soaring Council] has blossomed
    into a bait farm.

I got a good laugh from that one. : )

I also got a suggestion (from a different source). It seems that most of the clubs are finding people to staff the Soaring Council, and I got a suggestion that you would be an ideal candidate for the USHPA seat. I agree, and I can tell you that this suggestion came from someone who had pretty much given up on the Council's utility, but is becoming much more optimistic all the time. I can't think of anyone to better represent the USHPA at Torrey than yourself.

Let me know if you might at least consider that thought just a teeny tiny bit at all.

Thanks,
Bob K.

That was over a month before the first actual Soaring Council meeting, and it turns out that USHPA didn't pick Ken Baier as their representative. Instead, David Jebb picked Doug Poirier as USHPA's representative and the Jebb's tried to make it look as if Poirier was Brad Hall's choice. Brad was initially quite upset by the deception, but went along with it after the fact (more on this later).

In the fall of 2007 I attended my first USHPA Board meeting (in Salt Lake City), and I spoke with Lisa Tate about replacing Doug Poirier. Lisa did replace Poirier ... with Brad Hall. Brad Hall remained as USHPA's representative until after I defeated David Jebb as Regional Director in December of 2008. Eventually, Brad Hall's deception caught up with him (secret letters to City Councilmembers were exposed), and Brad was replaced by Ken Baier in the spring of 2009 (over 2 years after my email message to Ken above).

[Bob Kuczewski]

David Metzgar / SDHGPA resist the Soaring Council

Back in 2007 (and even today) the Torrey Pines concession held considerable control over both the SDHGPA and the local USHPA Directors.

In the case of the SDHGPA, their leadership was persuaded by the concession to adopt a "hand off" policy regarding Torrey Pines. So when I began to try to get the SDHGPA to take its proper seat on the Soaring Council, there was considerable resistance by the SDHGPA leadership. I believe their strategy was to undermine the Soaring Council's validity by refusing to participate. Instead, the SDHGPA wanted to back the "Torrey Pines Paragliding Association" (TPPA) which was completely controlled by the concession (David Jebb decided who would sit on their board).

Here's an email exchange between Gary Fogel and the SDHGPA leaders (Dave Metzgar and Bret Daniel). This was extracted from a message that Gary had forwarded to me on March 26th, 2007. Some of the authors are not clearly known and are listed here as "Suspected Author: ..." to be clear.

To summarize this discussion, Gary Fogel was arguing that the SDHGPA had held a seat on the Soaring Council for a long long time, and that there was no reason for the SDHGPA to NOT appoint a representative. David Metzgar was trying to dodge that obligation by either saying that they didn't understand the Soaring Council's purpose or by saying that the TPPA filled that role or by saying that the SDHGPA didn't have a role at Torrey Pines anyway. The most telling statement from Dave Metzgar was: "the current board of the SDHGPA has no interest in directly affecting Torrey Pines or the flight operations there". The duplicity in Metzgar's statement became apparent when I suggested that another club be formed to represent pilots at Torrey Pines. All of a sudden, Dave Metzgar felt it was very important for the SDHGPA to have a seat on the Council.

A recent review of the club charter, a discussion with current and past board members, and significant debate at club meetings, we have come to the following conclusions (Bret can address any inconsistencies between my description and the conclusions at the last meeting, at which I was not present):

1) The club by-laws does not mention any method of naming or appointing representatives to other organizations, nor does it seem to be part of our general mandate. As such we will not be engaged in these activities until the by-laws are amended to include this function.

2) As far as our club can ascertain, the soaring council is currently defunct, and until it is reformulated and the club can judge it's apparent purpose and (with that information) our members' willingness to offer representation, we will not appoint or elect anyone to the TPSC even if we could.

So, I can offer you this - if someone were to lobby hard enough to amend our by-laws such that we (me, the board, whoever) had the power to appoint representatives to other organizations AND the majority of the club agreed on a particular person as being representative of their opinions to a specific organization, I would appoint that chosen person. Note that we could not make these decisions about an organization that was not currently active, as we couldn't formulate an opinion on the organization or it's agenda.

I will ask one question, something I've been wondering about for some time... What purpose does the (did the) TPSC serve that the TPPA does not? Why is the TPPA not the appropriate club for discussion of Torrey flight issues?

I will also add the following comment - the current board of the SDHGPA has no interest in directly affecting Torrey Pines or the flight operations there. Our club is designed to deal with the rest of the sites in the area, which have very different issues and management requirements. The TPPA is there for pilots (of all types) who want a voice in the flight operations at that site.

From the message I have, it appears that Gary Fogel replied by interjecting his response into Dave Metzgar's original message:

Dear David,

Thanks for the email. I appreciate the rapid reply. Some comments below.

A recent review of the club charter, a discussion with current and past board members, and significant debate at club meetings, we have come to the following conclusions (Bret can address any inconsistencies between my description and the conclusions at the last meeting, at which I was not present):

1) The club by-laws does not mention any method of naming or appointing representatives to other organizations, nor does it seem to be part of our general mandate. As such we will not be engaged in these activities until the by-laws are amended to include this function.

I'm not entirely sure then, how it was possible previously (for the past 20 years or so?) for the SDHGPA to have had previous representatives such as Alan Chuculate, Brad Hall, Greg Lawless, etc. It seems to me that a board of directors for such a nonprofit can appoint whomever they want as a representative for whatever purpose, this without having to be in the bylaws.

2) As far as our club can ascertain, the soaring council is currently defunct, and until it is reformulated and the club can judge it's apparent purpose and (with that information) our members' willingness to offer representation, we will not appoint or elect anyone to the TPSC even if we could.

The Soaring Council is very far removed from being defunct. We currently have members from the following organization (as of today):

  Soaring Society of America: Gary Fogel
  Associated Glider Clubs of Southern California: Ed Slater
  Academy of Model Aeronautics: Joe Holtzman
  Torrey Pines Gulls Radio Controlles Soaring Society: Mike Lance
  Torrey Pines Scale Soaring Society: Sal Peluso

The Bylaws for this organization were originally ratified on April 26, 1978 by the City of San Diego Park and Rec Board and we are named in the current lease agreement with Air California Adventures as the group which "represents all soaring user groups". Unfortunately, our past chair, John Davies passed away in 2005, the former SDHGPA representative Alan Chuculate passed away, and my father Larry Fogel just recently passed away. All three of these members were important for their contributions. The Soaring Council has continued to be in existence (for example, I've met with representatives at the Salk Institute regarding their master planning over the last three years andhow this might impinge on the full scale sailplane operations at the site) but we have not held a meeting. I'm trying my best to correct that.

The last revision to our Bylaws is dated February 28, 2001. According to this, the SDHGPA is named (given Alan's representation). I think we owe it not only to Alan but to all SDHGPA members to make sure that this representation is continued.

As for the Soaring Council's purpose from the current bylaws: "The purpose of the Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society, Inc. shall be to advise the City of San Diego, The Regents of California, and any Leasee in formulating flight safety regulations and policies, coordinate activities related to the historic Torrey Pines Gliderport, and to maintain records of this history and protect historic artifacts pertaining to this gliderport.

The purpose of the Torrey Pines Soaring Council is to guide this organization in its activities and devise suitable flight safety regulations and other rules that will benefit and protect the recreational use of the Torrey Pines Gliderport, this in an advisory capacity to the property owners and any Leasee."

These Bylaws were ratified by the representatives from the various user clubs including (at the time) Alan Chuculate on behalf of SDHGPA and
Scott Kemp on behalf of (then) USHGA.

Our next meeting has already been scheduled for April 12 and we are seeking representation from all clubs rather than just a few.

Please have a review of our website: http://www.tpghs.org, which has been operational since 2001 or so. I'm not quite sure where all of this talk about us being "defunct" came from. Dormant is perhaps a better term, and with good reason.

So, I can offer you this - if someone were to lobby hard enough to amend our by-laws such that we (me, the board, whoever) had the power to appoint representatives to other organizations AND the majority of the club agreed on a particular person as being representative of their opinions to a specific organization, I would appoint that chosen person. Note that we could not make these decisions about an organization that was not currently active, as we couldn't formulate an opinion on the organization or it's agenda.

Would it be possible to determine, perhaps from members such as Brad Hall who have been through this previously, how it was that the SDHGPA nominated representatives in the past? Other clubs simply do this as a part of their routine rather than having it mandated in the bylaws. I'd hate to have your own bylaws hinder your representation. All we request is a letter from the parent organization officially naming someone as their representative. That representative can then report back to your board for decisions, comment, etc.

I will ask one question, something I've been wondering about for some time... What purpose does the (did the) TPSC serve that the TPPA does not? Why is the TPPA not the appropriate club for discussion of Torrey flight issues?

The main purpose of the TP Soaring Council is to exist as a collection of representatives from all groups that use Torrey Pines. As such it has been incorporated into the lease. The Torrey Pines Paraglider Pilots Association (http://www.flytorrey.com/tppa.php) is a group of paraglider pilots. As such, it represents paraglider pilots. It does not represent all user clubs. For example, I would say as the representative from the Soaring Society of America that the TPPA has no representation of interests for full scale soaring activities. In fact the first qualification of the TPPA on their web site is that you must be a paraglider pilot. Thus, the TPPA is more equivalent to the SDHGPA or the TPG in that it represents one facet of the sports that share the Torrey Pines Gliderport rather than a council of clubs that represents ALL interests of these organizations to the City or UCSD.

I will also add the following comment - the current board of the SDHGPA has no interest in directly affecting Torrey Pines or the flight operations there. Our club is designed to deal with the rest of the sites in the area, which have very different issues and management requirements. The TPPA is there for pilots (of all types) who want a voice in the flight operations at that site.

I find it ironic that the SDHGPA has no interest in affecting Torrey Pines, especially given the record attendance at your last club meetingand the long tradition of SDHGPA flight at Torrey, all the way back to the days Ultralight Flyers Organization, and your previous history of representation via the Soaring Council. Surely SDHGPA has the duty to help promote and preserve active hang gliding and paragliding at this world famous location, just as much as it has the right and duty to promote access to other sites like Horse, Blossom, or Otay.

To answer your last sentence rather directly, the TPPA is there specifically for paragliders (by their own admission) rather than as a voice for all pilots, which is what the Soaring Council is all about.

With best regards and looking forward to your reply, Gary

******************************
Gary B. Fogel, Ph.D.
Vice President
Natural Selection, Inc.
3333 N. Torrey Pines Ct., Suite 200
La Jolla, CA 92037 USA
tel: (858) 455-6449
fax: (858) 455-1560
http://www.natural-selection.com
******************************

It appears that Bret Daniel (SDHGPA Vice President) chimed in with a reply intended for Dave Metzgar, but accidentally sent it to Gary Fogel as well. It's interesting to see "behind the curtain" at the SDHGPA in this message:

We can only go by what the club charter says. That's our job, deviation requires amendment, which requires a majority vote of the membership.

So... Have Gary send an official "in the mail" email request for affiliation. Have him send the "Official up-to-date TPSC charter "in the mail".

3 dead dudes on the council is pretty much the council...

Furthermore, explain that how things were handled in the past, are going to be handled "by the Charter" today, regardless of what was then.

Today it says, majority vote for affiliation, then appointment.

Upon this, will will announce that we will be establishing a vote master person, and announce that at the subsequent meeting (May) we will vote for affiliation. Upon successful vote (monitored by the vote keeper guy/person) appointed in April, we can have a general membership vote, etc etc.

We should also see if we can get the Jebbs to deal with this problem before the membehsip votes. If the general membership votes for this, then it is our obligation to support this affiliation.

Then and only then we can determine if a person will be appointed.

-b

P.s. don't let them pressure you into appointing someone... I don't see them helping us save blossom, and torrey is fully functioning the way it is, except for dumbass RCs who crash into sail planes... How the eff does this concern the SDHGPA... It aint the SDHGPG-RC-FULLSCALE club

O my

-b

Pay particular attention to Bret's comment about "the Jebbs": "We should also see if we can get the Jebbs to deal with this problem before the membehsip votes. If the general membership votes for this, then it is our obligation to support this affiliation." Bret is basically calling the Soaring Council a "problem", and he's saying that if the Jebbs can deal with it first, then the SDHGPA is off the hook. He also says that if the general membership approves the affiliation, then they'll have to carry it out. The implication is exactly what Dave Metzgar said ... "the SDHGPA has no interest in directly affecting Torrey Pines or the flight operations there." In other words, they want the Jebbs to have complete control at Torrey Pines.

Gary replied to Bret's message:

Dear Bret,

I'll cc to Roger and David because I wasn't sure they were included on your last note to me.

Happy to send the invitation and the bylaws in the mail to you. Can you forward a mailing address? I don't have an electronic copy handy.

Yes, I guess my father can now be referred to as a "dead dude." I have to say I haven't heard it expressed that way before. The council is made up of more organizations that just three people, two of which have already been replaced. Replacement of council representatives is apparently quite simple for others.

Is a copy of the SDHGPA bylaws available? I'd love to have one.

Look, I'm not pressuring anyone. I'm simply trying to get a vacant council seat filled, and obviously the previous SDHGPA board thought enough of it to want Alan (and many others) to represent SDHGPA in a very friendly way years. Its up to your club to determine if it wants to. I hope it does because it would be a shame to continue the Soaring Council without SDHGPA representation. I find it remarkable you are even considering such a thing. Honestly, how does it hurt SDHGPA to have someone from SDHGPA attending a Soaring Council meeting and reporting back to the board?

The recent RC/Full scale collision is something that I also find very disturbing and it is important to determine the cause(s) that led to that event.

Gary

Bret realized his mistake and replied back to Gary with an apology trying to cover his previous disrespect:

Hi Gary,

I will have to apologize for my candor in the last message... I was taking notes in my email program, to reply after my work day, and it was inadvertently queued and sent.

Please understand, that it was **NOT** my intention to treat you or your father with any disrespect in any way.

Please accept my humble apology if you were offended by my email.

Best Regards,

Bret

P.s. A better email to reach me at is BretDaniel@yahoo.com

Please note, because of the high tension and emotion presented at our general club meeting about the Soaring Council Topic, The SDHGPA board, is making decision "by the book" so that there is no confusion about any appointments, etc.

I do encourage the communication, as members of all clubs will educated as to the facts, and not rumors or hearsay (which I think causes tension)

Later that same day, Gary Fogel followed through with his formal request asking Dave Metzgar (president of the SDHGPA) to continue on with the Soaring Council:

Dear David,

This is a formal letter to ask that SDHGPA continue its current and lengthy membership in the Torrey Pines Soaring Council as indicated in the Bylaws of the Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society, Inc by appointing a voting member to the Council in accordance with Article III Section I of said Bylaws.

Sincerely,

Gary Fogel
SSA Representative, Torrey Pines Soaring Council

SDHGPA President, Dave Metzgar began to chime in on the discussions as well. It's interesting to see Dave Metzgar wiggling around trying to define a difference between "mountain pilots" and "Torrey pilots" in his message below. He's basically trying to say that the SDHGPA is only concerned with "mountain pilots" and that would justify the SDHGPA not being involved with Torrey. While he wanders all over the map, his basic message is captured in his statements "We don't appoint people to organizations that advise the Lake Elsinore site, or the Crestline club, or any other freeflight club, why should we do so with Torrey?" and "If you are flying at Torrey, you are a Torrey pilot, not an SDHGPA pilot, because our club is here to protect and serve OUR sites Horse, Laguna, Blossom, Otay Mesa, Big Black, etc - and the people who fly them. We have plenty to keep us busy."

Of course, the duplicity in Metzgar's words would become obvious when I later suggested that maybe we should form a new club specifically to represent Torrey pilots. From Metzgar's words, you'd think he'd be in favor of such an organization. But when we actually started one (the Torrey Hawks), Dave Metzgar fought tooth and nail to maintain control by the SDHGPA and to completely shut out the Torrey Hawks. Dave Metzgar himself (despite his words) has represented the SDHGPA on both the Torrey Pines Soaring Council and the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board. But that's getting ahead of the story. At this point, Metzgar is still trying to justify why the SDHGPA should NOT be on the Soaring Council. Let's see how he does it:

Gary,

Thank you for the detailed and excellent information, Gary. I was under the impression that the TPPA served ALL types of Torrey pilots, not just paragliders (a quick glance at your referenced website supported your argument). I agree that there needs to be some sort of representative organization that serves all the Torrey users and attempts to balance their needs and desires. Whether our organization wishes to be officially represented on such a body will, as Bret states, be a decision that the current board will leave to a vote.

I personally have a specific mission as current SDHGPA president, and that is to bring the ridge-soaring ("Torrey") and mountain-flying communities back together in San Diego. Not to make us one body, but rather to generate mutual respect, a friendly recognition of our differences and the reasons for those differences, and a general atmosphere of collaboration, mutual protection, and support. The whole Torrey vs Mountain thing has gone on since I was a little kid, flying hang gliders in Colorado at the age of 13 and hearing all sorts of terrible things about Torrey pilots and the associated rules, regulations, etc.

Given that the Torrey hang/para community has a history of conflict with other non-hang/para Torrey users, it is NOT in my interest to appoint a club representative to an organization (TPSC) that is very closely associated with that conflict. I can see how the organization became (and will likely again become) a lightning rod for all sorts of conflict between hang/para pilots and other users, and I don't want us (mountain hang/para pilots) to become one of those conflicting "other users". We don't appoint people to organizations that advise the Lake Elsinore site, or the Crestline club, or any other freeflight club, why should we do so with Torrey? Torrey is not overseen by our club, period. And they don't tell us what to do with Laguna. If they wanted to, they could join our club and vote with everyone else (THAT is what we accomplished at the last meeting - exactly as hoped!). Do you start to see my point? Different sites have their own flying communities, and they tend to let the other communities develop their own rules and methods without interference. I expect that Torrey pilots have some representation on the TPSC - they certainly should. If they do, then that's the representation for local hang/para pilots! Why should a club that specifically represents OTHER local sites have secondary representation? If Torrey pilots and SDHGPA pilots have independent representatives, that would suggest that we have different goals and different purposes AT TORREY. Which we don't - all of the above people come to Torrey to fly paragliders and hang gliders. We all pay the same amount of money, and we all weigh the same when life flight pulls us off the cliff. The difference is that Torrey pilots fly mostly at Torrey, they have special Torrey clubs and Torrey rules, and many SDHGPA members fly mostly in the mountains, have a special mountain pilot club, and have our own mountain site rules. You can tell them apart by which clubs or memberships they choose to spend their money on. My feeling is that the Torrey pilots should decide what happens at Torrey, and the mountain pilots should decide what happens in the mountains. If they want a voice in both places, do what I do - bust a nut trying to be an active part of both communities.

If we force the two (mountain and Torrey pilots) to come to the table as separate parties in conflict situations, it only reinforces the separation and conflict between the two.

My two cents. If the club votes to allow appointment and indicates the desire to appoint a particular person as our representative, I will gladly do it. But for now, I want it to be very clear that when I come to Torrey, I fly the same as any Torrey pilot. The difference between Torrey and the mountains isn't what club you come from, it comes from where you happen to be flying RIGHT NOW. If you are flying at Torrey, you are a Torrey pilot, not an SDHGPA pilot, because our club is here to protect and serve OUR sites Horse, Laguna, Blossom, Otay Mesa, Big Black, etc - and the people who fly them. We have plenty to keep us busy.

Cheers,
Dave

Again, the SDHGPA club president (David Metzgar) makes it clear that his club (SDHGPA) will not be involved with pilots flying at Torrey: "If you are flying at Torrey, you are a Torrey pilot, not an SDHGPA pilot, because our club is here to protect and serve OUR sites Horse, Laguna, Blossom, Otay Mesa, Big Black, etc - and the people who fly them."

Dave Metzgar didn't know it at the time, but his own positions were fueling the need for another local club in San Diego. That local club was quietly formed with 5 members on April 11th of 2007, and it applied for USHPA Chapter status on September 11th, 2007. That club was the Torrey Hawks.