The hole in Tx's arm where all the $$ goes

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Pilgrim,

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of any site (foot launch or not). And since I don't have a tow rating (yet), that's one less site that I can fly.

On the other hand, $10,000 per year and $15,000 to fix the road is a lot of money for any club to put out. For better or worse, I think that fits the title of this topic.

Your comment about landowner relationships is probably the most important lesson to learn. It would be nice if this country were full of wide open spaces where we could fly unencumbered, but that's not what we have. We need to do all the things you mentioned to be respectful and grateful to the land owners who allow us to fly.

I am sorry that you lost the site.

Bob Kuczewski

[SamKellner]

Charles,

You probably miss Pack more than anyone.

With Cowboy-up in Tx. thru the cooler months, maybe it will ease the crunch.

[Bill Cummings]

BELOW I CHIMED IN WITH RESPONSES WITH THE CAPS LOCK ENGAGED (and GREEN ITALIC TEXT).

Re: The hole in Tx's arm where all the $$ goes

Postby Pilgrim » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:48 pm
Some interesting facts:

1. Since Pack closed going on two years ago, many pilots in the area have had little or no airtime in Texas. We have to go out of state now. IF I LIVED IN THAT AREA I WOULD NOT HAVE TO GO OUT OF STATE. Several pilots gave up and left the sport. WITH WAGES BEING STAGNANT FOR MORE THAN A DECADE YET FUEL AND OTHER ESSENTIALS COSTING MORE COULD THIS ALSO PLAY A ROLE IN PEOPLE LEAVING ANY SPORT? OR EVEN A HOUSE IN FORECLOSURE.
COULD THERE BE OTHER CONSIDERATIONS AS WELL? From my count, this is at least twice the number of new pilots coming into the sport here. I’LL HAVE TO CONCEDE THIS SENTENCE SINCE I HAVE NO WAY TO FACT CHECK IT.


2. There are only two commercial aerotow operations in Texas from Houston to San Antonio to Austin. I WOULD NOT COMPARE AERO TOWING TO FLYING AT PACKSADDLE UNLESS I WAS TRYING TO COMPARE BETWEEN THE TWO MOST COSTLY OPTIONS AVAILABLE. MY ALTERNATIVE TO LOSING PACKSADDLE WOULD HAVE AERO TOWING AT THE BOTTOM OF MY LIST. FIRST WOULD BE VEHICLE PLATFORM (PL) TOWING. SECOND WOULD BE STATIC TOWING, (ST). THIRD WOULD BE SCOOTER TOWING.

3. There have been three times the deaths in Hang Gliding in the last two years (all aero tow) than occurred in the last 30 years. BACK AT MY MINNESOTA BOAT TOW OPERATION ON A 1600’ TOWLINE MY FRIEND DON RAY SET OUR RECORD OF 36 FLIGHTS IN ONE DAY (ONE PILOT). AERO TOW FLIGHT PARKS DO EVEN BETTER. WHAT IS THE RECORD AT PACKSADDLE? WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST COMPARISON? DEATHS PER FLIGHT OR DEATH PER LOCATION OR OPERATION?

4. One of the tow operations only opens on weekends and spends most of the time making money by giving tandems. THIS SOUNDS LIKE A BUSINESS ON A WEEKEND NOT A CLUB OPERATION. WHEN I WAS (AT) RATED IN THE 80’S I WAS TOLD THEN THAT A CLUB NEEDED THIRTY MEMBERS TO AERO TOW IN ORDER TO AFFORD IT. HAVING ONE MOTOR IN THE SHOP AND THE OTHER MOTOR ON THE TUG. NOW WITH THE NEW REGULATIONS ALONG WITH THEIR ADDED EXPENSE IT WOULD TAKE MANY MORE CLUB MEMBERS THAN 30 TO STAY AFLOAT.
I HAD 900 FLIGHTS ON TRIKES BEFORE THE 610 CLOWN IN OKLAHOMA CITY KILLED THE SPORT FOR MOST OF THE MIDDLE CLASS. IT’S NO WONDER TUG PILOTS ARE HARD TO COME BY ANY MORE. OR EVEN WHY IT HAS GOTTEN SO EXPENSIVE WITH NEW RULES, INSPECTIONS AND FEES.

5. The other operation is not really open to the public. It is by invite/reservation only. It accommodates only a very few people on a vary random basis and operates out of a completely private airstrip. PLATFORM TOWING IS WAY CHEAPER AND A LITTLE SAFER THAN AERO TOWING. AERO TOWING IS LAUNCHING FROM A LESS STABLE PLATFORM (GLV --DOLLY) AND THE STATE OF THE ART OF AERO TOWING REQUIRES A THREADED BRIDLE TO RELEASE.
NOT A PILOTS BEST TOW BRIDLE/RELEASE OPTION.
THE THREADED BRIDLE’S INHERENT CAPTURE PROBLEM UPON RELEASE IS ANSWERED WITH A BACK UP THREADED RELEASE ON THE THREE POINT TOW METHOD. YOU CAN PRO TOW TO MITIGATE THE RELEASE CAPTURE POSSIBILITY BUT AS THE NAME IMPLIES YOU NEED TO BE A PRO TO DO IT SAFELY. THERE IS A GREATER RISK, PRO TOWING, OF BEING LOCKED OUT “OVER THE TOP” BY A TUG PULLING TOO FAST OR WHEN ENCOUNTERING A THERMAL.

6. The only other tow operation is a private club that is on the verge of collapse. After a death and a serious injury this year they have all but shut down. Something about all the tug pilots leaving the club. THE 610 FEDS ARE GETTING ALL THE MONEY NOW. ONLY A BUSINESS AND PEOPLE WITH ENOUGH MONEY CAN AFFORD TO DO IT. I WONDER HOW MANY PILOTS AT QUEST OR WALLABY DOES IT TAKE TO SUSTAIN AERO TOWING NOW DAYS?

In summary, the loss of Pack has been absolutely devastating to hang gliding in Texas. IN YOUR AREA OF TEXAS. We all go to Colorado, or Oklahoma, or Arkansas, or Wyoming or Arizona now. I WOULDN’T COMPARE VERY EXPENSIVE AERO TOWING TO UNAFFORDABLE PACKSADDLE. I WOULD BE PLATFORM, STATIC, OR SCOOTER TOWING IN TEXAS.

Just the facts... . I HOPE MY OPINIONS WILL HELP YOU GET PAST LOSING PACKSADDLE BECAUSE, AND I’M SORRY, IT’S GONE.

PLATFORM TOWING IS MORE VERSATILE THAN A, 450’ HIGH, FOOT LAUNCH SITE THAT SERVED ONE WIND DIRECTION.

BORROWING FROM SAM’S ESTIMATES, $250.00/ MEMBER DIVIDED INTO $8,000.00 EQUALS 32 MEMBERS FOR NINE MONTHS OF FLYING AT PACKSADDLE. (CLOSURE FOR HUNTING?)

IF I HAVE THIS RIGHT YOUR LAST LEASE OFFER THAT WAS TURNED DOWN WAS FOR $12,000.00 FOR NINE MONTHS OF USE AT PACK.

TO STICK WITH FACTS WE HAVE TO BREAK IT DOWN INTO COSTS PER MONTH SINCE A PLATFORM TRAILER OR TRUCK TOWING WOULD GIVE YOU TWELVE MONTHS OF FLYING - NOT NINE.

TRUCK>$12,000.00 DIVIDED BY TWELVE = $1,000.00/ MO.
PACK > $12,000.00 DIVIDED BY NINE = $1,333.33/MONTH.

$1000.00 DIVIDED BY 34 MEMBERS = $29.41/MO./MEMBER.
$1333.33 DIVIDED BY 32 MEMBERS = $41.66/MO./MEMBER.

OH BUT WAIT A MINUTE YOU SAY---BILL YOU DIVIDED THE TOP BY 34!
JUST MY POINT.
NOW THAT YOU CAN MOVE YOUR PORTABLE TOW MOUNTAIN BETWEEN ME AND PACKSADDLE AND YOU CAN FACE IT INTO THE WIND I CAN MEET SAM HOOK UP TO HIS CAMPING TRAILER HE CAN MOVE HIS TOW RIG TO MEET WITH YOUR TOW OPERATION.
MOVING PACKSADDLE CLOSER AND FACING IT INTO THE WIND WOULD BE DIFFICULT.
A SLED RIDE DOWN FROM 450’ PACKSADDLE HAS AT BEST TWO MORE TRIES BEFORE DAYS END.
A TOW SLED RIDE FROM 1,000’ HAS MULTIPLE TRIES.
MY WORST ATTEMPTED XC WORKED ON THE SEVEN TOW. (THAT TAUGHT ME PATIENTS.)
$12,OOO.OO WOULD PUT QUITE A NICE TOW RIG ON A TRAILER OR SOMEONE’S TRUCK. MAYBE TWO TOW RIGS.

BUT NOTICE THAT I CHERRY PICKED MY FACTS TO BOLSTER MY TOWING PITCH. IF COMMON SENSE PREVAILS IN ALL LIKELIHOOD YOU WOULD NOT BE WORKING WITH 12K YOU WOULD AT BEST BE WORKING OFF OF THE OLD FEE OF 8K OR LESS TO SET UP A PORTABLE TOW RIG WHICH IS DOABLE BUT NO WAY WOULD IT PAY FOR CLUB AERO TOWING.

DIFFERENT TIMES IN THE YEAR YOU COULD HOLD FLY-INS IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS FROM YOUR BASE STAGING AREA THAT WOULD BE AN EASIER REACH FOR OUTLYING PILOTS TO SIGN ON WITH YOUR CLUB.
THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO MOVE THE 1,000’ MOUNTAIN CLOSER TO MOHAMED. (WHAT’S HIS PILOT NUMBER BY THE WAY? DOES HE HAVE A PL OR ST RATING?)

Pilgrim BILL CUMMINGS

[SamKellner]

Thanks Bill,

[Bill Cummings]

These guys are doing well on the flats also

[Bob Kuczewski]

Hi Bill,

That's a nice collection of truck towing videos!!

[SamKellner]

So Bob,

Those videos should be all you need. You ready to start towing?

[Bill Cummings]

Flat land towing



First solo tow

[Bob Kuczewski]

First video: From a 2400 foot tow on up to 6850 in less than 5 minutes!!

Third video: Cool shot from the truck bed. I don't think I've seen a truck launch from that perspective. He had a great approach as well, but I think we were cheated out of seeing the "whaaack" at the end.   

Thanks for the great posts Bill!!

[Bill Cummings]

Found this when I searched Youtube for Mansfield towing.
I guess that j85can40 is Canadian pilot down for towing. (??)


Here his friend is towing up an ATOS also platform towing,