[eagle]

I've been wanting to fly Torrey Pines for a while now but I think I'd be walking on eggshells while I was there.

You'll no doubt have a much more relaxed time if you don't show up with Bob, pick stronger conditions and don't take photos. Although you could get free room and board the other way.

Wake UP Brown Nose
Co-signing the Gliderport's illegal Acts doesn't Solve any Problems or get You Cudos from the Locals & Victims ~
If YOU'RE Backing the Gliderport, You're part of the Problem ...
Get a Clue & Have a Good Day

[BigBird]

What, no GoPro on my glider or the wife taking pictures of me flying????? Is this a top secret site or something?? I've never heard of such tight requirements. BTW, Bob offered to introduce me to the site so I'll take him up on his generous offer (I might just put my full-face helmet on a little earlier than normal). I would opt for great flying conditions too, but then don't we always wish for primo conditions.

Phil

I've been wanting to fly Torrey Pines for a while now but I think I'd be walking on eggshells while I was there.

You'll no doubt have a much more relaxed time if you don't show up with Bob, pick stronger conditions and don't take photos. Although you could get free room and board the other way.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Fellow Hawks,
This video is Bob's presentation to the San Diego City Council less than 12 hours after he was released from San Diego county jail for taking photos at the glider port of Gabe's nose. This is just more proof of what jerks those guys (thugs) are.

I want to publicly thank Margie for being my hero. She came down to Torrey on a moment's notice to take my vehicle and possessions (including my cell phone, wallet, and everything else that the police would have otherwise confiscated and possibly searched). Margie also bailed me out at 3am in the morning or I might still be in jail. Thanks Margie!!!!

Thank you so much, BobK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

Thank you Joe. Kind words from USHGA #5 are always welcome!! Your insightful and thoughtful analysis of everything is a treat to witness.

I watched SDPD arrive, I'm Sure I would been arrested upon speaking Out or filming the incident.
The same thing is happening when speaking out against the many other Gliderport issues.

THREATS, DISCRIMINATION & TARGETING OF PILOTS.... (keeping ME/us Silent)
This has been going on for I would say 25+ years.

Thanks Eagle. That's why I felt it was time to take it to the next level. This will bring it to a courtroom.

Wow!!! You've got some cojones!!! Good job!!

Thanks BigBird!! But let me be clear that I was scared. I was very scared. I was scared to the point of shaking. Courage isn't a lack of fear. It's having a conviction that's so strong that you can do what's right even in the face of fear.

I still don't understand how the police even took this seriously??? Why did they say you had to leave, what was there reason? Something I do understand is those who think they are 'entitled' in our sport - don't get between them and their entitlement!!!

I think there is some form of "behind the scenes" corruption at Torrey. In the past few years the police have always said that anyone is free to take pictures of anything as long as they're not interfering. But this time, the police went inside the building for quite some time (maybe half an hour or more). When they came out, they took a different position, and that's when they gave me the ultimatum to leave or be arrested. The only reason they've given me was supposedly "trespassing". Now this is a City Park, and the lease says "The general public shall not be wholly or permanantly excluded from any portion of the premises." I've also paid a fee to use that park. So "trespassing" is quite a stretch. I don't think it will stand up in court, and I'm hopeful that will establish a precedent that will stop the abusive harassment that Eagle has mentioned above.

I've been wanting to fly Torrey Pines for a while now but I think I'd be walking on eggshells...

Let us know when you're coming, and we'll try to have other Torrey Hawks there. Part of the problem in this case is that I was pretty much all alone. In the past, there have been more other Hawks present, and they were able to be witnesses to the police. But this was a very light flying day, and attendance was very light as well.

You'll no doubt have a much more relaxed time if you don't show up with Bob, pick stronger conditions and don't take photos.

Giving in to tyranny is never the solution. We have a right to be in our San Diego City Parks, and we have a right to take photographs in our San Diego City Parks.

Wake UP Brown Nose ... Get a Clue & Have a Good Day

Thanks Eagle for your own fight against tyranny at Torrey since before I even met you. I am hopeful that Brian's comments weren't intended as you've taken them. Time will tell who is right.

What, no GoPro on my glider or the wife taking pictures of me flying????? Is this a top secret site or something?? I've never heard of such tight requirements. BTW, Bob offered to introduce me to the site so I'll take him up on his generous offer (I might just put my full-face helmet on a little earlier than normal). I would opt for great flying conditions too, but then don't we always wish for primo conditions.

Thanks Phil. As you imply, the implications of not allowing photography are ... ridiculous. Thanks also for being willing to stand with us when you next fly at Torrey. You understand that the Torrey Hawks aren't about "flying under the radar". We're about standing up and asserting our rights openly. Thanks very much for joining us, and I look forward to flying with you at Torrey and anywhere else!!

[flyingbrian]

Bob, thanks for standing up for our rights.

Our use permit at Hat Creek Rim had a non-exclusionary clause as well. You had every right to be there. I hope truth and justice prevails on your court date.

Brian

[Jacmac]

I just wanted to mention that I wish I could edit my original post. After seeing the video, talking to Bob, and checking Penal Code 602 for California, there is no way Bob is guilty of Trespassing. The police must have been misled into believing that Robin and/or others had the authority to eject someone from the park. The police officers don't understand the lease, they just see the operators as the 'owners' of the site.

Trespassing aside, Bob did not initiate a confrontation by saying anything to anyone. I understand why Gabe got mad, but you don't get a license to push, shove, or order someone around because you're pissed off that they are recording you. If Bob had been out there heckling Gabe, it would be different, but he was only silently recording. Gabe could have stopped the class and taken a break. He could have quietly asked Bob what the problem was. He could have gone to Robin and talked about it. Het got mad because Bob would not leave the area and got in Bob's face. If you know Bob, you know he doesn't back down. The whole incident is regrettable, but you've got two sides that don't want to back down.

If this incident proves anything, it proves that the site needs city government oversight of some kind (beyond calling the police).

[Bob Kuczewski]

If this incident proves anything, it proves that the site needs city government oversight of some kind (beyond calling the police).

Brian, your comment cuts right to the heart of the matter.
It's an honor to have you as our President of the Torrey Hawks.

Bob, thanks for standing up for our rights.
Our use permit at Hat Creek Rim had a non-exclusionary clause as well. You had every right to be there. I hope truth and justice prevails on your court date.
Brian

The US Hawks is intended to bring pilots together from across the country to help each other preserve their ability to fly. Thanks for joining us Brian, and thanks for making the Shasta Sky Sailors our newest US Hawks Chapter!!!

[brianscharp]

I've been wanting to fly Torrey Pines for a while now but I think I'd be walking on eggshells while I was there.

You'll no doubt have a much more relaxed time if you don't show up with Bob, pick stronger conditions and don't take photos. Although you could get free room and board the other way.

Wake UP Brown Nose
Co-signing the Gliderport's illegal Acts doesn't Solve any Problems or get You Cudos from the Locals & Victims ~
If YOU'RE Backing the Gliderport, You're part of the Problem ...
Get a Clue & Have a Good Day

Sorry for the misunderstanding, that's just my sick sarcastic sense of humor. I'm in Bob's corner on this. It's the reason I registered here and posted a topic that got deleted on the org.

Giving in to tyranny is never the solution. We have a right to be in our San Diego City Parks, and we have a right to take photographs in our San Diego City Parks.

Amen

I watched SDPD arrive, I'm Sure I would been arrested upon speaking Out or filming the incident.

I can't honestly say I'd have done anything different. But now that it's said and done, don't you kinda wish you had?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, that's just my sick sarcastic sense of humor. I'm in Bob's corner on this. It's the reason I registered here and posted a topic that got deleted on the org.

Thanks Brian. I sort of figured that, and that's why I tried to smooth things a bit. Both yourself and Eagle are good men, and we need good men to come together if we want to save hang gliding. Thanks to you both.

We may not have a lot of people here on the US Hawks, but the people we have are some of the best. Thanks for joining us.

I watched SDPD arrive, I'm Sure I would been arrested upon speaking Out or filming the incident.

I can't honestly say I'd have done anything different. But now that it's said and done, don't you kinda wish you had?

We are all human, and we all have our moments of fear and our moments of courage. In my opinion, everyone on this forum is showing courage because it puts you in the sights of Jack (hanggliding.org) and Davis (ozreport.com). They would both like to crush the US Hawks, so everyone here is standing up for freedom of speech. Thanks to all!!

[Bob Kuczewski]

I saw this post by our Torrey Hawks President on hanggliding.org:

A small cadre of HGs have gone out of their way to give the place a bad name.

I don't think the place has a bad name, but there is no question that lots of people there hate Bob with a passion. And I'm not going to try and say that he hasn't brought most of that upon himself. The reality is that much of what Bob is actively fighting for is quietly supported by many HG pilots. I'm the president of the Torrey Hawks, but I have neither the time nor desire to do more than lobby for change at Torrey, where Bob puts in real time. By that I mean days a month of time. There is no harder working volunteer for hang gliding that I have met. Most of what he wants, HG pilots want; fair representation at Torrey and some kind of oversight over the Concessionaire.

Right now there is no oversight at all. You got a problem with how the park is run, who do you call? Call the City Park and Rec department, they send you to the Concessionaire. Call the Real Estate Assets department, they send you to the Concessionaire. If you have a complaint about rules, safety, prices, anything, your only stop is the Concessionaire. That would be fine if this was a private flight park, but it is not and the Concessionaire couldn't give a crap whether you think something is fair or not.

By and large, most people fly there don't have a problem. But if you want to fly Tandems out of that PUBLIC park, the Concessionaire will charge you as much as he charges a member of the public. Legal? No, the prices are listed in the lease and a tandem pilot can't be charged more than what is listed according to the lease. Think the Concessionaire cares what the lease says? Nope, he has stated in a Torrey Council meeting that he can charge what ever he wants. Who do you complain to about this?

So anyway I forgive those of you who are ignorant or could simply care less about the problems that have existed at Torrey for a long time, you simply see one side or just don't understand why Bob would spend so much time on this. Bob almost quit and moved back to Florida a few years ago, but the Concessionaire, through his actions, changed Bob's mind and Bob is still at it, hopeless though it may be. I don't agree with Bob's methods all of the time and I think he can be a bull in a china shop with the way he berates people in emails, but he is actually fighting for what he and many others believe is the right thing.

Jacmac's comments about no oversight (2nd paragraph) are right on target. The lack of oversight is the key problem and any of this nonesense about "Bob this" and "Bob that" are just diversions from that underlying fact. I get dragged into this because I am willing to be the tip of the spear for change. But none of this is "about Bob". It's about whether we can get fair oversight at our public parks or not. To make this "all about Bob" does a disservice to the problems at Torrey in the same what that making it "all about Rosa Parks" would do a disservice to the entire Civil Rights movement. But it's easy to attack a person. It's much harder to answer the hard questions:

    "Why wasn't an RFP issued when Jebb's 10 year lease expired ... back in 2008?"
    "Why does the 7 member Torrey Pines Soaring Council contain 3 RC pilots, 2 sailplane pilots, 2 PG pilots, and NO ACTIVE HANG GLIDING PILOTS?"
    "Why has USHPA's Rich Hass ignored the USHPA Board Resolution passed in 2010 to work to add more representatives to the Soaring Council?"
    "Why did the City of San Diego kill the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board which contained equal representation for all 4 sports?"
    "Why was David Beardslee charged $100 to fly tandem and the lease says that the 'outside tandem fee' is $25?"
    "Why are people harassed and even jailed for daring to take pictures of instruction?"
    "Why are people who've been banned given no written reason for their ban ... even after filing written requests for a reason?"
    "Why won't USHPA issue site insurance for Torrey Pines as they do with almost every other site in the country?"

And that's just the short list ... off the top of my head.

So Jacmac (Brian M.) is right to point out that there are accountability problems at Torrey that need to be fixed whether Bob Kuczewski acts more like Mother Theresa or Genghis Khan. Thanks for the clarity Brian!!

[SamKellner]

I attended the City Council meeting last night where I showed many of these pictures to the Council..

Step by step by step by step
Bob,

The audience at the Council meeting, unbiased opinion, was very supportive after seeing your video and listening to your comments.

It is very obvious who is in the right.

Take the video of the Council meeting to your, trial? Who could argue?

Thanks to all for supporting remarks and efforts.

US Hawks