[JoeF]

I am also a paragliding pilot, so I'm not opposed to the sport.

Alternatives, perhaps:
1. During the aspect when the wing is collapsed, piloting might draw down to near-no-piloting opportunity. Could one be opposed to that part of the sport?
2. Does the "sport" have hard-wired sectors that has your not-opposed position, and hard-wired sectors that have your opposed position?
3. Do you see the alternative of being a paragliding pilot and the holding of "opposed" position for the as-is "sport" ? That is, being a PG pilot does not necessarily posit "not opposed" position with respect to the sport; perhaps one might be a PG pilot while being opposed to the sport (or a sector of the sport). It seems logically that one may be a user of a poison while being opposed to the activity of using the poison.

[Rick Masters]

That Sinking Feeling -- A little math

If you will recall my comments a few posts back about flying through sink, you will understand why paragliders are not suited for Big Air. A medium performance hang glider can pass through one mile of 1000 fpm sink at 3/4 full speed, say 45 mph, and this will take:

Time = Distance / Speed
minutes = (1 mile / 45 mph) x 60min
minutes = 60 / 45 = 1.33 minutes

The hang glider has a sink rate of, say 220 fpm at 45 mph

1.33min x 220 fpm = 293 feet lost

Add this to the altitude lost in the sink band

293 + (1.33 x 1000fpm) = 293 + 1330 = 1623 vertical feet lost by the hang glider passing through the sink band

The paraglider has a speed of, say 24 mph at 3/4 full speed.

minutes = (1 mile / 24 mph) x 60
minutes = 60 / 24 = 2.5 min

The paraglider has a sink rate of, say 280 fmp at 24 mph

2.5 min x 280 fpm = 700 feet lost

Add this to the altitude lost in the sink band

700 + (2.5 min x 1000 fpm) = 700 + 2500 = 3200 feet lost by the paraglider passing through the sink band

The hang glider looses only half the altitude lost by the paraglider in sink. People who chose paragliders to fly XC in Big Air need to work on their math skills. But there is more to the equation.

Altitude lost by deformation of a hang glider's airfoil = 0

Altitude lost by deformation of a paraglider's airfoil = 0 + X

What is X? X is unknown. X can kill you. Hang glider pilots do not fly with X.

[Merlin]

I was lucky enough to have one of the first double surface gliders in the seventies. I stumbled across a little secret (of course obvious today) - you could out climb the best thermal pilots simply by flying fast enough in the sink cycles (and the double surface helped alot). You did not need to be particularly talented to fly fast to the next "marked" thermal- and could easily end up on top of the stack after half an hour or so.

Just because you are diving thru sink doesn't mean you're not gaining on everybody (particularly paragliders).

[Bob Kuczewski]

I was lucky enough to have one of the first double surface gliders in the seventies.
Just because you are diving thru sink doesn't mean you're not gaining on everybody (particularly paragliders).

So how many competitions did you win with that wisdom before sharing it?   

1. During the aspect when the wing is collapsed, piloting might draw down to near-no-piloting opportunity. Could one be opposed to that part of the sport?
2. Does the "sport" have hard-wired sectors that has your not-opposed position, and hard-wired sectors that have your opposed position?
3. Do you see the alternative of being a paragliding pilot and the holding of "opposed" position for the as-is "sport" ? That is, being a PG pilot does not necessarily posit "not opposed" position with respect to the sport; perhaps one might be a PG pilot while being opposed to the sport (or a sector of the sport). It seems logically that one may be a user of a poison while being opposed to the activity of using the poison.

My hope for the US Hawks is that we will be neutral with respect to any sports other than hang gliding. That includes paragliding, skiing, golf, baseball, mountain climbing, base jumping, and hockey. However, if any of those sports were threatening the sport of hang gliding, then we would work to support hang gliding. If the City of San Diego wanted to turn Torrey Pines into a soccer field, then we would work against that. It might appear that we were "anti-soccer", but that would not be the actual case.

I have enjoyed flying paragliders, and I plan to continue flying them in smooth conditions such as at Torrey Pines in the future. But my paragliding is like my skiing and sailing - none of them diminish my dedication to the sport of hang gliding.

My point is that we can have US Hawks members who love golf and we can have US Hawks members who hate golf. We can have US Hawks who are Republicans and others who are Democrats. We will be united in our support of hang gliding while we might end up divided over topics like politics and religion. We should do our best to keep the hundreds of ways that we differ from dividing us on the one issue that unites us.

[Rick Masters]

Measuring "X"

DHV recently measured the height lost by 6 popular paragliders in asymmetric collapse. Results ranged from 30-39 and 50-59 meters per asymmetric collapse in calm air. Helpless falling humans will find it comforting that they are only likely to fall no farther than they would fall off the roof of a three to six story building. Unfortunately, a commander-induced asymmetric collapse in calm air does not come near the altitude lost by an asymmetric collapse in turbulence.
http://www.dhv.de/web/en/safety/safety- ... rs-part-2/

As a soaring parachutist descends into what is often the most turbulent air on his flight, that during his approach to land, should his sail experience an asymmetric collapse within these ranges specified by the DHV, he will hit the ground hard. This is a risk every soaring parachutist accepts on every flight.

"X" has not been observed in hang gliders, so this risk is unique to paragliding. Hang gliding purists, such as myself, remain incredulous that any sane person would participate in a sport where such a risk exists.

[wingspan33]

How in the world can any collapsible canopy occupant NOT recognize that hang gliders are NEVER tested for falling distance - BECAUSE they can't crumple up into a wad of cloth - the way collapsible canopies can.

. . . and the points at which any given hang glider MAY become "asymmetrical" are so rare as to be negligible.

[JoeF]

So, may the assets via bylaws of US Hawks be spent 100% on airframed hang gliding matters? And members would have their positions on other matters with the freedom that is so honored? Board of directors will be listening to members and forming a set of bylaws that will be put up for a vote. The wording of hang glider matters in the bylaws will evolve. Some scratching has been done already. This topic thread is not the place for such bylaw composing. Will PG have doorways into the assets of US Hawks? What will the wording handshake with insurance be?

[Bob Kuczewski]

These are just my own answers. The final answers will come when we establish our Board of Directors ...

So, may the assets via bylaws of US Hawks be spent 100% on airframed hang gliding matters?

Most likely, yes.

And members would have their positions on other matters with the freedom that is so honored?

Absolutely yes.

Board of directors will be listening to members and forming a set of bylaws that will be put up for a vote. The wording of hang glider matters in the bylaws will evolve. Some scratching has been done already.

Yes ... and more scratching to come!!!

This topic thread is not the place for such bylaw composing.

Yes. There can be many discussions in many places to plant the seeds of ideas. Eventually we will have a more formal process for harvesting.

Will PG have doorways into the assets of US Hawks?

As much as golfers and hockey players.

What will the wording handshake with insurance be?

TBD. I'm not sure how we're going to handle insurance while we're in our growth phase. Any ideas from anyone?

[JoeF]

TBA vs. TBC vs. TBD
Although these phrases (and their respective abbreviations) are often used interchangeably, they have subtle differences:
To be announced (TBA) implies that the event concept has been developed, but is not yet suitable for public announcement.
To be confirmed (TBC) suggests that a decision has been made, but is awaiting final (formal) confirmation from authorities and/or organizers.
To be determined (TBD) designates that the appropriateness, feasibility, or location of a given event is yet to be assessed.
Other similar phrases sometimes used to convey the same meaning, and using the same abbreviations, include "to be ascertained", "to be arranged", "to be advised", "to be adjudicated", "to be done", "to be decided", and "to be declared".
Use of the abbreviation "TBA" is formally reported in a reference work at least as early as 1955,[1] and "TBD" is similarly reported as early as 1967.[2]

[wingspan33]

So, may the assets via bylaws of US Hawks be spent 100% on airframed hang gliding matters?

My response to the above question is connected strongly with the contents of this thread. I think that the US Hawks (as a future NFP Corporation?) should restrict its focus to the promotion and advancement of ultralight gliders (soaring aircraft) which include a[n internal] structural airframe.

My position regarding inflatable canopy, soaring parachutes is that those individuals promoting their use (even passively) have failed to assure that these "wings", in reality, are used in a consistently safe manner. If the US Hawks officially associated itself with users of collapsible canopies, the effect would be to (at least passively) promote the dropping of human beings from heights that kill or seriously injure them.

The US Hawks could produce a statement to the effect:

- Soaring Parachute activities must be limited to soaring (or non soaring) conditions involving smooth laminar air flow at or below (X) mph.

- Training for soaring parachutists must include extensive education on the nature of the unsuitability of their collapsible airfoils to thermal (i.e., turbulent) conditions.

- Such training MUST include accurate worldwide statistics, since the inception of the sport, regarding total fatality, injury and accident rates. Training must include the typical nature and/or patterns involved in such incidents.

- Since the US Hawks does not see any significant effort being made by the promoters, dealers and instructors of soaring parachutes (also known as paragliders), along the lines described above, this organization advises that soaring parachutes not be used in the pursuit of general ultralight soaring sport aviation by anyone.

Will PG have doorways into the assets of US Hawks?

I don't think they should. Assets include investment, promotion, insurance, . . . Once you're in "financial bed" with them, corruption follows. Promotion includes leading the naive and unsuspecting to death by plummeting. Insurance rates are better for safer aircraft.

What will the wording handshake with insurance be?

. . . Any ideas from anyone?

Self Insure.

Or, . . .
Make up fancy (Loyds Of London?) Stationary. The text to include complex, hard to understand, policy lingo. Goal: Just pull the wool over everybody's eyes. (only kidding )

On a more serious note: Is there such a thing as "simple" Corporate Insurance? For the off chance your NFP Corporation gets sued?