[Bob Kuczewski]

I won't address the hate crime issue because that's a legal matter, and I'm not a lawyer. However, I do believe that both Jack and Davis allow - and to a certain extent encourage - people to beat up on others they don't like. When that crosses various laws, I think the people wronged have a right to seek remedy.

The whole purpose of the US Hawks is to develop a national hang gliding association with a forum where pilots can participate based on their membership rather than by permission of Jack or Davis. Almost every good-sized hang gliding or paragliding club has a forum of some sort for use by their members. Why doesn't USHPA provide one at the national level?

The answer is that the USHPA leadership is scared to death of pilots actually being able to ask public questions of their own Regional Directors ... and expecting answers.

[Merlin]

Most clubs are very "flat" organizations. Forums work well with those generally. Once you get a top down hierarchy in place, it will naturally defend its own structure. And the bottom up nature of a forum can be very corrosive to those top down elements. This is also evident with the "benevolent dictator" model we've seen with Jack and Davis. Power defends itself ... when threatened, big emotional crackdowns ensue.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Most clubs are very "flat" organizations. Forums work well with those generally. Once you get a top down hierarchy in place, it will naturally defend its own structure. And the bottom up nature of a forum can be very corrosive to those top down elements. This is also evident with the "benevolent dictator" model we've seen with Jack and Davis. Power defends itself ... when threatened, big emotional crackdowns ensue.

Great observations Merlin. I think the framers of the U.S. Constitution understood this and worked to build a system of checks and balances to limit the power of the top down hierarchy. I am hopeful we can do the same with the US Hawks.

I believe transparency is very key to making this work. Both Jack and Davis have relied on their ability to rewrite the posting history on their forums to keep people ignorant of what's actually happened. We must - as a group - establish mechanisms to keep that from happening here (by either myself or the Board of Directors that I'm hoping will replace me). I hope you'll be part of our "Constitutional Convention" to draft that structure.

[wingspan33]

. . . Once you get a top down hierarchy in place, it will naturally defend its own structure. . . This is also evident with the "benevolent dictator" model we've seen with Jack and Davis. Power defends itself ... when threatened, big emotional crackdowns ensue.

What I am (to put it very mildly) mystified by is how Mr. Straub was informed - by my post - that another member had (seriously) violated the Forum Rules and, in response, decided to boot me out of the forum - instead of the member who actually poses the actual (legal) threat to Mr. Straub. It strikes me as the kind of (re)action resulting from a "Den of Thieves" mindset.

Mr. Straub also acted in a contradictory manner by blatantly failing to enforce his own Forum Use Requirements.

In my research I have found that Mr. Staub's Web Hosting Company* has a statement on their web site that also disallows such illegal conduct by their clients. It looks like I may have to haul them into Court in order to get to Mr. Straub to get to Billy Floyd.



*Pair Networks Inc. based in Pittsburgh, PA ( http://www.pair.com/policies/abuse.html )

[Bob Kuczewski]

It's not clear to me whether Billy Floyd or Davis Straub are worth the effort and aggravation this will cost you.

What hurts more in most of these cases is that Davis and/or Jack can disconnect individual pilots from the larger community at will. We've allowed that by becoming "members" in their own little fiefdoms without establishing any rights or ground rules for due process. I don't know how much success we can have at changing their fiefdoms, but the United States was founded by simply leaving similar fiefdoms (in Europe) and starting again from scratch. That's what I'm hoping we can do with the US Hawks.

I'm not trying to discourage you from seeking justice against those who've wronged you, but I am worried that the effort you spend will end up hurting you. What you've shown here in this topic exposes the Oz Forum as a "non-benevolent" dictatorship. The people who accept that will stay there, and the people who want to build something better will hopefully find their way to the US Hawks. It works out very nicely that the people who want to live in a dictatorship will get what they want, and the people who want justice will hopefully get what they want.

That's exactly as it should be.   

[wingspan33]

Bob,

Your below comments are appreciated. And while it's a bit late in life for me to become a lawyer, I LOVE the legal details connected with working toward JUSTICE. So, when you worry about "effort and aggravation" look at this as being my way of remaining in the sky for another hour's soaring time. As the pilots of soaring aircraft, we are always putting in effort and feel some aggravation when we are looking for that elusive next thermal. I enjoy the effort and aggravation of "fixing" things that are clearly broken. And if it was easy, it wouldn't be half as enjoyable. Of course, getting to the goal is the ultimate reward.

As things stand, USHPA members of two local Chapters of the USHPA harassed me out of the sport - with nothing more than purely imagined justification. The USHPA, when informed, did nothing. As a result, I ( a Master Rated pilot) don't feel comfortable/safe pursuing the sport I first got involved with over 40(!) years ago! ! !

I feel that the USHPA easily had the power and ability to correct the improper behavior of their local Chapters (all they need do was threaten to terminate their Chapter status/site insurance). But in failing to do so, the USHPA has destroyed my ability to pursue my love of ultralight soaring aviation.

I am forming a case against the USHPA which involves civil damages connected with Corporate Fraud (acting in contradiction to their published corporate policies) while taking my membership payments. The complaint will also include Defamation. In this section of the complaint, The USHPA will have to answer how it is that - after being clearly informed of the harassing activities of SEVERAL of it's members (in the direct context of my and their status as a hang glider pilots) they have taken NO ACTION to revoke the membership of said individuals - or to enforce any other penalties against them whatsoever.

The latest offenders, in my case, are USHPA members - Billy Floyd of Las Vegas, NV and Davis Straub of the "Land of Oz". These individuals have demonstrated their absolute bad character, again, in the relevant context of their actions as fellow hang glider pilots and members of the USHPA - which requires members to be of "good character".

And I would ask you, Bob:

How many people - who are members of the USHPA - do you KNOW (from personal experience) to be of bad character? Hmmmm, . . . David Jebb, Gabriel Jebb, Robin Marien, other Air California Adventure Inc. agents/employees?

How about other USHPA members (including any directors) who have made provably false/defamatory and/or harassing statements to, or directed at, you? Douglas Pourier (or however you spell his name), Urs Kellenberger, . . .

GANG MEMBERS - far more them respectable/respectful fellow pilots.

It's not clear to me whether Billy Floyd or Davis Straub are worth the effort and aggravation this will cost you.

What hurts more in most of these cases is that Davis and/or Jack can disconnect individual pilots from the larger community at will. We've allowed that by becoming "members" in their own little fiefdoms without establishing any rights or ground rules for due process. I don't know how much success we can have at changing their fiefdoms, but the United States was founded by simply leaving similar fiefdoms (in Europe) and starting again from scratch. That's what I'm hoping we can do with the US Hawks.

I'm not trying to discourage you from seeking justice against those who've wronged you, but I am worried that the effort you spend will end up hurting you. What you've shown here in this topic exposes the Oz Forum as a "non-benevolent" dictatorship. The people who accept that will stay there, and the people who want to build something better will hopefully find their way to the US Hawks. It works out very nicely that the people who want to live in a dictatorship will get what they want, and the people who want justice will hopefully get what they want.

That's exactly as it should be.   

[Bob Kuczewski]

And I would ask you, Bob:

How many people - who are members of the USHPA - do you KNOW (from personal experience) to be of bad character? Hmmmm, . . . David Jebb, Gabriel Jebb, Robin Marien, other Air California Adventure Inc. agents/employees?

Too many to count right now.

How about other USHPA members (including any directors) who have made provably false/defamatory and/or harassing statements to, or directed at, you?

Again ... too many to count right now.

The world is full of rotten people, but it's also full of good decent people. The trick in life (whenever possible) is to hang out with the good decent people and let the rotten people consume each other. That's what makes the good decent people stronger and the rotten people weaker.

Unfortunately we can't always do that. Torrey Pines is an example of a site controlled by some pretty rotten people. If there were another comparable site in San Diego, then we could let the free market work its magic. But there are no alternatives in this case, and that's why we're standing together for justice.

Good luck Wingspan, and keep us updated on your progress!!

[wingspan33]

Thanks for the quick reply Bob.

My situation is different from Torrey, but in many ways is just the same. The two Local Clubs/USHPA Chapters would take the place of Air California Adventure Inc. Since they "control" the local flying sites by way of holding the Site Insurance via the USHPA, they can also "control" who flies at those sites.

One local USHPA Chapter (in Rochester, NY) eventually influenced the other (who I had remained on good terms with) to also act in discriminatory and even harassing ways toward me. This fits very closely with what happened to you on November 9th of last year. Luckily, the worst actions taken against me involve Criminal Harassment (mainly) over the internet (club related Yahoo and Google Groups).

The effect has been almost the same as you being issued that restraining order. In August of 2012, the Rochester, NY Club (membership in which I had terminated) called on ALL local pilots to stop having (social/flight related) contact with me. Since both local clubs have many overlapping members the "dominant" Rochester Club easily influenced members of the other. I was banned from the second club's communication mechanism (a Yahoo Group) and major club members VERY Obviously stopped talking or associating with me when I went to fly what I once would have called "our" flying site.

Unlike your Restraining Order, Bob, my local community of local pilots walked away from me. It was a purely "social" banning. But can a person feel that their participation in a sport like hang gliding can be safe given such a negative situation.

And that brings us back to the topic of this thread. Can criminal harassment in an online hang gliding community be tolerated? Do I have a right to not be defamed while discussing hang gliding topics with other hang glider pilots - on line? In a legal context, I SURE DO!

I'm not the kind of "victim" that rolls over and plays dead. Push has now come to shove.

Kind of like your telling the San Diego cops that you weren't going to leave Torrey Pines City Park two months ago.

[Bob Kuczewski]

One of the things I'd like to do on the US Hawks is build a network of mediators who can step into situations like yours to try to resolve things nicely. We did that a few years ago when a student had a dispute with an instructor and I believe it worked out fairly for everyone.

The problem is that it takes a relatively large network to ensure that there are people who are trusted by both sides in a dispute. We're not there yet, but I think we could start to build a list of people willing to intercede to smooth situations for our members. I would volunteer to do that, but then I'm not on everyone's "best buddy" list.

Maybe we can start a forum ("Court of Pilot Opinion"?) for dispute cases where mediators can start and moderate topics to help resolve problems. Any thoughts?

[wingspan33]

Bob,

That's a very good idea. I was hoping the USHPA would suggest that type of arrangement concerning my local conflict. When they didn't, I suggested it. But my suggestion resulted in NOTHING by way of response from the USHPA. I'd call that not only pitiful but also irresponsible.

If such a process was made part of the US Hawks (future bylaws?) I would be very in favor of it. It's too easy for one side to bias the "leadership" when no formal (or even informal) due process is required in a dispute. Each side needs to be heard!

I'm planning on having my Federal Complaint against the USHPA done and ready to submit by January 14th - a week from now. To think, they have had every opportunity to arrange a mediation type solution. Instead, they'll spend significant membership dues money to cover their butts in Federal Court. Sad.

As I said, . . . One too many Pushes have resulted in a (figurative) Shove back.

One of the things I'd like to do on the US Hawks is build a network of mediators who can step into situations like yours to try to resolve things nicely. We did that a few years ago when a student had a dispute with an instructor and I believe it worked out fairly for everyone.

The problem is that it takes a relatively large network to ensure that there are people who are trusted by both sides in a dispute. We're not there yet, but I think we could start to build a list of people willing to intercede to smooth situations for our members. I would volunteer to do that, but then I'm not on everyone's "best buddy" list.

Maybe we can start a forum ("Court of Pilot Opinion"?) for dispute cases where mediators can start and moderate topics to help resolve problems. Any thoughts?