US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

This topic is generated to better understand safe platform/payout operations.

In accordance with USHPA, the accident report was submitted 6-16, the evening of the accident.

SWTHG forum is moderated. Please stay on topic. Remarks relevant to safety and accuracy in reporting are welcome.

False speculations and suppositions, as showed up soon after 6-16, only reflect, IMO, the insecurity of those individuals makeing them.

Clearing up the false speculation is a starting point.

Brad says, "that's all I heard". But more accurately might have said, that's Al I heard. Right?
Regardless, false on all three accounts:
1. low airtime, with a ushga # like 31,xxx?
2. "alledged" tow vehicle operator
3. winds to 28mph
All 3 totally inaccurate.

From: Brad@hanggliding.com
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:09 PM
To: 'Davis Straub'
Subject: Fatality in Texas
Davis,
Apparently there was a low-airtime pilot that locked out and crashed in Leakey Texas on 6/16 at around 4pm.
Allegedly Sam Kellner was operating the tow vehicle.
Wind gusting to 28(?).
That’s all I heard.

Blue skies,
Brad Kushner, Pres.
Raven Hang Gliding, Inc.
P. O. Box 101
Whitewater, WI 53190

Sam,
From an earlier post, Terry had the childhood disease of polio. Do you think that any reduced upper body strength could have been a contributing factor as a result of this disease? Could this have been part of Terry’s loss of control?

Bill,

Glad to see you here .

You're on to something

Terry would drop and do pushups to prove his upper body strength.

That childhood illness effected his lower body, more so.

IMO, his upper-lower body mass was not proportionally normal/average.

His good leg was smaller than my arm. RIP Buddy

When I saw him towing/flying a 170Falcon, in Kingsville, with Donnell Hewitt, there were some PIO.

At that time I/we attributed it to light wing loading. Now that I look back?

During our more recent scooter ops, PIO never occurred on his new glider, the 135sq Sport 2.

I didn't see PIO 6-16, but the threshold/trigger between being a bit off line with the tow, and a progressive irreversible lockout, was dramatic.

Bill Floyd has commented how there are some differences in control, being a double amputee.

It might have been a contributing factor.

Thanks for helping to understand.

SamKellner wrote:Clearing up the false speculation is a starting point.

Speculation occurs in the void of information.
The only thing that is clear to me is that Terry died while hang gliding.

When will more information be posted?

A great place to start understanding safety for payout operation in relation to the horrible accident is by posting an accident report.

It is also a great was to end speculation.

How about starting this thread in the right direction and sharing the accident/incident report?

No, you don't get an accident report.

What I've said already describes what happened.

Why don't you tell everyone some good ways to avoid lockouts?

Sam,

SamKellner wrote:No, you don't get an accident report.

Can you give us a reason? I found that surprising given your stance on the subject.

SamKellner wrote:Agreed, there's too much going on at ushpa in "secret".

The... need...for accident reports is another issue.

Each of us makes our share +/- of mistakes, and hopefully we can learn from it and stay alive.

When we can read accident reports of others, and not make these same mistakes, we will be better off, better risk managment.

Learning from accident reports is widely accepted, nothing new.

SamKellner wrote:What I've said already describes what happened.

All we know is that the pilot had a lockout. What were conditions like? Is the cause of the lockout known (thermal, PIO, glider setup issue, towline wrapped on a wheel...)? Was there a crosswind? Terry did know to point at the winch instead of following the road, right? How high was he when he locked out? What kind of release was he using? Where was the actuator mounted? Did he release prior to impact? What was the strength of the weak link and did it break? How was the bridle routed? What was his hook-in weight? Did the winch operator take any action in response to the lockout? What was the towline tension? Vehicle speed? Towline angle?

SamKellner wrote:Why don't you tell everyone some good ways to avoid lockouts?

There are times when lockouts cannot be avoided regardless of pilot action. They're generally only a problem near the ground, though. The best way I know to avoid these is to use streamers along the runway. Obviously, pilots should also not tow in conditions beyond their ability.

Thanks,
Zack

SamKellner wrote:No, you don't get an accident report.

What I've said already describes what happened.

Why don't you tell everyone some good ways to avoid lockouts?

No, Sam, it hasn't described what happened. I am still not sold on the fact that there was a lockout. From the info given, I am sold on the fact that there was a pilot with insufficient skill, flight planning, training, physical prowess, or all the above. Maybe all the above with a wing outside pilot skill set for the conditions.

The only thing clear at this point is that you have something to hide. It is almost like you know anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. :shh: :?

Sam, just post the report instead of trying to cast shadows on others. It is not going to work.

ZackC wrote: towline wrapped on a wheel...)? Zack

Yep the towline was wrapped on a wheel, as many payout winches are designed.