[wingspan33]

Joe,

Before looking at your recent post, but after submitting mine, I thought about whether CSS could have leased the land from the State. So, CSS could have themselves named in a USHPA/RRRG site insurance deal. But since CA has non-liability laws why would any of that be needed? But then you have to pay to be a member of CSS don't you. But non members don't pay so any "pay to play" liability situation would not apply. Very similar to Fort Funston.

Also, it would be interesting to read the lease if such actually exists. I don't think the State of California can enter into a contact (i.e., lease) that violates State or Federal law. If a lease exists it may say that no member of the public can be bared from entering the property, as long as an issue of safety is not involved. A skilled (non club) pilot coming into land would not be any kind of unusual safety concern.

But then a look at the (possible) lease (which should be publicly available though some State office) would need to be done to find out if any of the above even applies.

[JoeF]

I am finding that in such possible leases, if it exists, has clauses that guides both parties toward fulfilling (not breaking) any oversight laws of state or nation. Not a lawyer here. There is probably some kind of agreement; but both parties are not to break other laws overseeing such agreements. Off a State of CA document is the spirit of which I note: ". In the event that any portion of these guidelines is deemed in conflict with any law or regulation, such law or regulation shall prevail. " So, if CSS got some agreement that is in conflict with a higher law or regulation, then the higher law or regulation would prevail. My gut feel is that that CSS may have an agreement and may be interpreting such agree in ways that conflict with some higher law or regulation, and if so, CSS should move to correct their interpretation and grow fidelity with some higher law or regulation. I am betting that there is some kind of higher law or regulation that says, in effect: In California we want our citizen to play fair on our lands when they recreate; do not exclude visitors and recreationists just because you have a club with its club things. There are hikers who choose not to join Sierra Club. The LZ is dedicated to landing hang gliders; play nice.

Where is Dan, president of CSS?

Now I am getting a feeling of why CSS forum may have banned BobK, Big Bird, and myself, and maybe others. The more tightly CSS could prevent discussion on such matters, the longer they get to do the excluding.
But, to note, here is a clip about some things CSS was doing that they got stopped doing by action of the State of California: Apparently they were going against laws and regulations by allowing camping. BOOM; they were apparently found out and the State apparently PUT A STOP TO THE LAWBREAKING OR REGULATIONS BREAKING OR TO THE BREAKING OF SOMETHING. Well, soon, I hope the excluding of independent RHG is demanded to be stopped. Let people breathe in the LZ! No prejudice should be exercised over anyone landing a FAR 103 vehicle onto the park LZ. If some person is being unsafe, call the police as has been done for robbers, vandals, accidents, etc. But do not call anyone when an independent FAR 103 compliant recreating person lands on the park from a jump or bigger jump in the air. Try welcoming the independent; I bet they would contribute labor to clean and maintain the grass, steps, training slope, etc.

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To get service from the California Secretary of State, our end must get fairly specific in order to approach the document serving end of the Sec. of State:
Guide HERE. What is wanted? Any document of public record that concerns the use of the subject parcel! Name the parcel, I guess. Would that be specific enough? Or, please give copies of the "lease agreement" concerning the parcel. Or, Dan, pres. of CSS, could you provide a PDF of the lease agreement for this hang gliding community open discussion, please; that would be helpful; I will right now email Dan and ask for that.

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Request sent to CSS president. Hope he sends or posts a copy herein.

NOTICE THAT SOMEONE AT CSS HAS A NOTICE THAT COULD GUIDE:

Code: Select all

 "There is no security guard on duty so vehicles or gear left unattended at the Airpark are your responsibility."

Such expression could regard a respect for independents landing their gear on LZ wherein said lander takes "responsibility"; keep away security guards who might run out in the LZ waving: Hey you coming in on final, do not land here! No, no, no, for you have not the colors of the repugnant org; we require that you have that special color; go land elsewhere!


Summary focus:
[ ] 1. Seek, obtain, and study copy of the lease.
[ ] 2. Find the upper laws and regulations that are being conflicted by way of misguided interpretations.
[ ] 3. Discuss all with Dan, the president of CSS. Find a resolution to the challenge.
[ ] 4. Find a resolution to the challenge.
[ ] 5. Install and practice the solution in good faith. Grow happy hang gliding at Andy Jackson Airpark.


============================ P.S. : I just came across something that seemed to me to fit the CSS and FF cases somehow, not sure how yet, but the following clip from NYT:

Elon Musk, Tesla’s chief executive, under pressure from his lawyers and investors,
reached a deal with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Saturday
to resolve a securities fraud case. The settlement will force Mr. Musk to step aside
as chairman for three years and pay a $20 million fine

The upslope-of-LZ property, a "SFR" Single-family residence is neighbor to LZ. Nice to have an LZ as a kind of frontyard! Sweet.

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Prediction: Something will be found off; and when such is found and fixed, then all of the hang gliding community will be better than before. Let's work together to tweak to right.

Note: From the map study, I get: east training slope launch is off the LZ parcel; landings reach the LZ parcel.

Note: Similarly, the LZ as launch for the small west training jump lands off LZ onto SAN BERNARDINO CO FLOOD CONTROL DIST parcel.





.

[wingspan33]

PGs, sail planes and hang gliders are unique. If they get too low then they have no choice but to undertake an emergency landing. Any spot, public or private, can be suitable for such an emergency landing. Even a powered aircraft pilot*, if their engine fails, can do the same. If Andy Jackson Air Park happened to be that safe place to emergency land, then a pilot can not be accused of an "illegal" landing.

I've flown XC many times and I have never checked with the land owner for permission to land when I got too low to continue further. Only once (out of over 15+ XC landings) did a land owner confront me about landing on their property. Sadly, he forgot to mow "Don't Land Here!" in BIG letters in the grass of his field, . . . so how was I to know?



* Remember a few years ago when Harison Ford emergency landed in a golf course?

[wingspan33]

Joe,

As per the Elon Musk deal, . . . We could always put our cut of a 20,000,000 dollar fine to good use!

[JoeF]

Rob has been running a successful business at the AJA: he met clients at AJA. Then he would land clients at the AJA. For-profit business on the People's land. And independent RHG cannot land there? Something is off, and it is a puzzle.
There should be zero push against any RHG from landing at AJA; if any person recreating there breaks the law, then call the police.

The new etiquette that one day CSS may publish:

Fulfill FAR 103; get with other pilots and set up local traffic guides; do the best you can to have things go well.
There will be no pressure by CSS over independents to join a distant corporation. CSS will be good polite club and have no meaness over non-club members who land at the LZ.
The medium launches on Cross Country Ranch, LLC, upslope of the LZ, can be managed as that private property owner wishes. But CSS will no longer exclude independents. CSS will work with the State of California for an amendment or MOU for attaching to the lease that shows the understanding that independents may land at the LZ and have no bully approaches against the independents. Those independents might join CSS once CSS bylaws change to reflect that non-USHPA members may land at the LZ.

[JoeF]

After studying the up-slope private property and the business it is running, examine if there might be some kind of big for-profit use of LZ:
http://bigoloop.com/

And to think recreation non-buying-into-repugnant-USHPA individuals cannot land at the People's Land at LZ???? Something is off. I hope Big-O and Cross Country Ranch, LLC and CSS figure a way to stop such exclusion. The three entities could do all their hopes without USHPA. Even better and more robust. That aside, the big three ought not exclude the general independent recreating FAR 103 compliant hang glider pilot from landing on the People's LZ. If the three entities do not change to be equity neighbors with California and USA citizen pilots sans USHPA, they may lose their dream. Shunting the dreams of others may have reflective consequences. More and more pilots are having zero to do with PG org USHPA; that org is sustaining unAmerican pressures that should disallow its very existence.

Here, look for inequity inside the otherwise hopeful prose from the owners of the private property just north of the Andy Jackson Airpark (land owned by the State of California):
:

WHY
There are two kinds of why: why did we set this up and why should you come and have fun with us? Let's answer the latter, first.
Those who want to learn to fly or improve their skills can do so very easily with our system. Pilots who simply want to get a little more airtime out of their day can go for another flight or two or three... maybe even "popping it" for a soaring flight.

The pilot or student who comes to enjoy the Big O Loop will benefit from the premier foot launch flight training system in the Western United States. Our weather affords 300 flyable days a year and our system allows you to get the most of out each of those days. Nowhere nearby can you cart your wing back up to a launch that allows for a full approach and landing (counting towards all aspects of your rating goals!). Nowhere nearby can pilots below Advanced Rating so easily get multiple flights in per day.

The Big O Loop is, simply, the best place to practice your launch, approach, and landing skills West of the Rockies. Throw in our incredible weather and soaring opportunities and it's almost too good to be true!

No matter the skill level, every pilot is going to benefit from the fun to be had, flying your heart out and landing in a well groomed LZ. After landing, take another flight or hang out for a while with happy hang glider and paraglider pilots.

Now, why we set this up.... This venture has a number of goals:
~ Enhance the So Cal Hang Gliding experience by allowing pilots of all skill levels to get as many flights per day as possible.
~ Pay down the financial obligations of the XC Ranch House (more on that below).
~ Help the instructor community by providing (free of charge to approved instructors) a training tool that allows multiple launches, approaches, and landings in a short time frame.
~ Give a way for paraglider pilots to avoid a bit o' a hike!
~ Have fun!

Now, about the Cross Country Ranch House. A few years back, the Andy Jackson Flight Park was being threatened by development. It still is, but the threat is significantly less because Len Szafaryn and Owen Morse took an incredible risk for the club. Owen and Len formed a LLC partnership and bought the XC Ranch House, specifically to keep it out of the hands of the developers.

For many, the issue died down and the sacrifice Owen and Len made was mentally put on a shelf, much like the commendations they got from USHPA for their actions. However, their obligations and risks still live on, they still have a large property on their credit reports in a declining real estate market. The club supports them in exchange for water and a tenant helps mitigate the costs, but those two income sources combined are not enough to keep the property in the black, even on an interest-only loan.

In October 2009, John Wright came up with this idea to make money for the Cross Country Ranch House. Owen and Len dove into the venture and John fronted a little cash and administration and it has begun. Gene Embree and Rob McKenzie have put a lot of effort into getting the system set up.

In February 2010, Owen and Len did some math and realized the Cross Country Ranch would have to be sold; they could no longer continue financing the land out of their own pockets. They turned to the club and the club stepped up. The Crestline Soaring Society is now on track to purchase the Cross Country Ranch from Owen and Len.

The club is on a roll! RV parking pads have been graded. By the summer season, there should be water and power down to the LZ with improved LZ webcams for the website. We will be building tent platforms for dust-reduced camping.

Our long term goals include a clubhouse, showers, nice bathrooms, a place to cook, and lots of flight park amenities.

The club has assisted in the purchase of a 2010 Polaris Ranger Crew LE with Electric Power Steering. This is the right tool for the job and it should get up to five wings (some PGs) up Via Testes with ease and style. We are working on the rack for it now.

We also will be adding a launch at 500 feet above the LZ, primarily for hangs and a cliff launch at about 375, which will be called the Zeller Launch, in honor of hard working Mike Zeller.

Thanks to all who help and support! We are live and ready to roll!

[JoeF]

Adjacent neighbor
Attention
http://devil-canyon-project-relicensing.com/studies/
The Devil Canyon Project
“The Devil Canyon Project, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) Project No. 14797 (Project) is an important component of the State Water Project (SWP).
-------------------------------------------------------
All the more reason to get this challenge settled so more people may fly recreational hang gliders at the LZ owned by the State of California.
Correct that lease soon, CSS.

[JoeF]

Caution note:
Careful historical verification of statements made in the evolving wiki-like page has not been exposed; so, statements made may be with errors; references are not given; multiple people put in matters. Very much is not exposed in the very short history article. Here is put what is seen on Sept. 29,2018; the article might change tomorrow and the next day, etc. But the today's version at CSS is a start that may be nudged here and there; it would be neat if references were given. Perhaps one day a concise scholarly work will be done on the history of hang gliding in San Bernardino County. So, critical thinking would put up warning flags about conflicts of interest, sketchy memories, statement arriving from rumor, etc. But it is a start:
FROM: http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/history NOTICE THE invite and welcoming of "alternative" histories. Well, one alternative history would trace how we all got to this challenge about equity for recreating citizens who hang glide FAR compliant.

History of the CSS
Little Mountain
From 1971 through 1976 there was ever increasing flight traffic at a 500 foot hill in
San Bernardino called Little Mountain (by the radio towers) with only the really daring
pilots launching from the Camp Paivika parking lot out into Devil Canyon. Pine Flat was
the better place to get a mountain flight because of the better glide to the valley but
the road was challenging.

By 1976, with the city a San Bernardino subject to legal pressure to close Little
Mountain, the pilots formed the San Bernardino Hang Gliding Association (Chapter 16 of the
USHGA) in attempt to organize and apply pressure to keep Little Mountain open. In Feb 1978
a city ordinance was adopted that all hang gliding activities are illegal within San
Bernardino City Limits.

Mountain Flying
Pilots with better equipment and the legal need to stay away from Little Mountain
headed for the San Bernardino Mountains. No longer being allowed to launch at Camp Paivika
sent most pilots to a site known to the locals as Teddy Bear. This is the current location
of the Crestline launch site.

In the late 70's activity was booming, with typically more than 50 pilots flying from
Teddy Bear each weekend day. Landing areas changed every few months, including the
north-west corner of Palm and Irvington and a field on Pine (dirt road) about 1/4 mile
north of Irvington.

In August of 1979 the San Bernardino Hang Gliding Association (SBHGA) hosted the US
Nationals, with the Pine Ave. field the designated LZ.

Getting Official
In Oct of 1979 with the help of Bill Bennett, Andy Jackson bought a parcel of land at
the mouth of Devil Canyon. Pine Crest Air Park was born. The pilots now had a legal place
to land. The 'Pine Crest' name came from the two most-used launches - Pine Flats and Crestline.
Marshall Peak was little used in those days, and the gate was often locked all summer and it was a
long glide to the LZ (for gliders of that era) if you didn't get up right away.

Wanting to secure the launch area for the future, members of the SBHGA approached the
U.S.F.S. to get a permit for the Crestline launch at Teddy Bear. After a year and a half
of red tape, the permit was issued to the SBHGA in June of '80.

Former USFS employee Paul Schaefer was heavily involved with processing our permit application, and recalls that the CSS competed against a hang glider manufacturer who wanted to construct a building and other facilities on the site (who might that have been?!?) and that 'at the time, this was the first launch site open to the public (with membership in CSS) on FS land in the US. Part of the red tape involved in getting that first permit was convincing the powers that be of the legitimacy of the club and the sport.'

The pilots now regulated the Launch and Andy & Juanita Jackson regulated the landing area.

The USFS permit required that a launch area parking lot be made, as the parallel parking on the sides of the 2 lane Playground Rd. were considered inadequate for the traffic. The fiasco of the congestion during the '79 Nationals from Crestline was the main reason for the parking lot requirement.

The parking lot was dug by front-end loader in the fall of '83. A railroad tie retaining wall was installed by hand by the pilots on a foggy, rainy day just a few days before the USFS deadline ran out.

Changes and Growth
In 1983 the San Bernardino Hang Gliding Association changed its name to the Crestline Soaring Society (CSS).

In 1984 the CSS hosted the US Nationals and with the $5000 earned paved the launch area parking lot as required by the USFS Permit.

Andy died of Cancer in September 1985.

The windtalker, (909) 338-3362, donated by Orange County Hang Gliding Assn., Wills Wing, and Hang Flight Systems, was installed near launch at Camp Paivika by Editor Jim LaGuardia and Activities Director Chris Armenta in 1987.

The End of Pine Crest
Juanita continued operation of Pine Crest Air Park. In Feb. '89 she was told by the State of California Department of Water Resources (DWR) that her land would be taken to expand a water pipeline project and that the hang gliding activities would terminate.

The CSS, Juanita Jackson, and our USHGA Director Joe Greblo worked together for several months and in the spring of '90 the DWR decided to relocate the hang gliders onto a new landing area.

Andy Jackson Airpark
The new landing area, called the Andy Jackson Airpark, was officially opened in July of '94.

In the summer of '96 CSS member Gary Beese almost single-handedly constructed the cool shade structure in the LZ. Thanks Gary!

We'd like this history to be a living document, so please feel free to submit comments with additions or amendments or historical tidbits that ought to be included. Submissions will either be worked in to the main document or presented as links within the document. Alternative views of the History of the CSS are welcome. You'll be given credit and perhaps your additions will give credit to the Unsung Heroes of the CSS.

===========================================================
Then, upon that, I arrived at a question sent to Joe Greblo who had been working diligently when the government took Juanita Jackson's Devil's Canyon parcel used for an HG LZ. Here is my reflection and then copy of note this evening to Joe Greblo:

It may not have occurred to anyone that the process was doing something deeply wrong. But light is shining on something key to the healthy growth of recreational hang gliding. Let's keep working on the matter. My guess is the the People of the State of California have managed to generate laws and regulations to prevent and halt the inequity that is now systemic in deals generated from the USHPA push. Clubs maybe with good intention have simply folded into the best they knew; but the disease in the process may be cured through work. In the coming futur could be public land scenes that will be richer for hang gliding for the work being done to change up while rooting out strands of cancer. Needed may be a smart lawyer that might put it all together in one clear picture from top People down to the special interest entities that give tension via fences with the People. Special interest is an important part of a healthy society; such motivates creative action; however, the People are not to be inequitably exclude from their rights by the special machinations of special interest.

When USHPA just vanishes, the recreational independent hang glider, citizen of USA, will still be flying. No club tied to the distorted monopolistic exclusionary process that is the USHPA and its RRRG and its PASA marriage should be able to thwart the People's open recreation on lands intended for a certain activity. The State of California unknowingly is party to a wrong at AJX that can be corrected. I hope a lawyer type will write up a clear picture of the wrong; then we may discuss that with CSS first; they have been invited here; CSS banned such discussion energy from their forum; suppression, censoring, avoidance, not discussing is what has been occurring, so far. We wait as we study. CSS could help solve; if CSS bluntly hides and does not want to change, then what? Go to the next level, the State as party to the process that is working a core inequity. If the State does not move from their department, then someone will know what to do next; such is a bit above my skill level.

We wrote to Joe Greblo a few minutes ago; he is no doubt tired from today's activities at Sylmar's big meet day:
============================

Hi Joe,
Do you recall if Juanita Jackson put funds into the work done to shape the new LZ of the present AJX? The government agency by eminent domain, apparently, took her Devil's Canyon parcel. The State 100% owns the parcel where AJX is operating; so that leaves 0% ownership to any private party. Who paid for the earthmoving and shaping of the mound that is the LZ?
You were deeply involved at the time. Thank you.
Thank you; you told us to come to you about Sylmar history. This is about another county matter that you still worked on deeply.
Best,
Joe Faust

===================================

[JoeF]

To be studied: http://www.flytandem.com/airpark.htm Go to the site to click, enlarge, study. Look for on-topic nuances.
==================================================
What are the implications of businesses using the airpark when individual recreating independents cannot?
For on-topic discussion: dated screen prints:

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