[Bob Kuczewski]

I think my recovery would have come along sooner if I had not been shut out of the therapeutic value of hang glider flight within a 2 hour drive. There is where some bitterness still lies, the theft of that.

I'm sorry that's been done to you. There is a soullessness in those who would take away anything as beautiful as flight for any reason other than immediate and dire emergency to life and limb.

That's what we're fighting against.

[Red]

Red,
As with Frank, you say things here that you would never say to Jack because you fear Jack's wrath. You feed and reward his abuses with your silence. You cannot deny that fact.

I know, Bob wants everybody to feel that the only "right" choice is to fight against the injustices of *his* life.

As for "cyber bullying" your actions betray your outrage. Every day you post to a site that advertises a "Bob Kuczewski and Scott Wise" rule. Where is your outrage over that?

Bob,

Sit, Red, sit! Lie down! Roll over! Damn, Red, you are one evil dog! You don't do anything that I tell you to do! <-That is what I get, here.

Outrage? Oh, you want outrage? Yep, I have plenty of that; it's for idiot mis-leaders in government, for USA cops who shoot down unarmed human beings as soon as anybody yells "Gun!" (and that is a protected right, here) and for dictators who starve and kill their own citizens, trying to retain power. I do have some outrage left over for a PG/HG club that hides the voting records of the BOD, and cancels their acknowledgement of my proven skills unless I pay them money every year. As for some stupid tempest-in-a-teapot squabble about how somebody else may run their own forum, Nah, I am no part of that, and all of my outrage is far better spent elsewhere.

This forum is the only place where I'm told to justify my choices, and you have NO right to do that to any human being. I will not respect your demands. Warren GETS it, which is great.

I do not answer to you. I never will. I will post where and when I please. Your vitriol, harangues, insults and manipulations will not work with me. Fight your own battles, if you wish, but they are not my battles.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Your vitriol, harangues, insults and manipulations will not work with me.

Red, if you'd spoken like that to Jack during any of the last 10 years, he wouldn't have banned Joe and a lot of other good people. Also, USHPA's spokesmouths like Mark Forbes wouldn't have had a free fire zone to spew whatever lies he wanted to the "world's largest" hang gliding audience.

If you and Frank and Mike and a number of each of your friends got together and spoke up, then Jack would either mend his ways or lose whatever dwindling supporters he has.

Don't call him names. Don't make personal remarks. Don't use profanity. Simply stand together and state that Joe had not violated any rules and that you would like to see his posting rights reinstated or know the reason why not. Simply state that you don't want your own posts to be auto-edited to remove USHGRS or any other links to suit Jack's personal agendas.

If you're afraid to do even that, then you've got all the proof you need that you are indeed being manipulated very well ... but not by me.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Actually, let's set all of that aside for the moment.

I'd just like to ask a simple question for each of you who post on Jack's site.

Can you quote for us what rule was in place at the time of Joe's banning that justified - in your own mind - Joe being banned?

[Red]

Your vitriol, harangues, insults and manipulations will not work with me.

Red, if you'd spoken like that to Jack during any of the last 10 years, he wouldn't have banned Joe and a lot of other good people. Also, USHPA's spokesmouths like Mark Forbes wouldn't have had a free fire zone to spew whatever lies he wanted to the "world's largest" hang gliding audience. If you and Frank and Mike and a number of each of your friends got together and spoke up, then Jack would either mend his ways or lose whatever dwindling supporters he has. Don't call him names. Don't make personal remarks. Don't use profanity. Simply stand together and state that Joe had not violated any rules and that you would like to see his posting rights reinstated or know the reason why not. Simply state that you don't want your own posts to be auto-edited to remove USHGRS or any other links to suit Jack's personal agendas. If you're afraid to do even that, then you've got all the proof you need that you are indeed being manipulated very well ... but not by me.

Bob,

STOP telling me what I should or should not do. I do not follow your orders. You are wrong to try to issue orders to anybody. Nobody gave you that right.

[Bob Kuczewski]

STOP telling me what I should or should not do. I do not follow your orders. You are wrong to try to issue orders to anybody. Nobody gave you that right.

Red, STOP telling me what to stop telling you. I do not follow your orders. You are wrong to tell me or anyone else what we can or can't say to you or anyone else. Nobody gave you that right.

Actually, we all have that right. It was granted to us in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. It was granted to us by men who had long suffered under fear of retribution for speaking their own minds. It has been sustained by other men who fought and sometimes died to protect that right.

You have been so deeply manipulated and intimidated by Jack that you seem to have forgotten one of the founding principles of this country.

But let's get back to the simple question I asked earlier:

Can you quote for us what rule was in place at the time of Joe's banning that justified - in your own mind - Joe being banned?

[Red]

STOP telling me what I should or should not do. I do not follow your orders. You are wrong to try to issue orders to anybody. Nobody gave you that right.

Actually, we all have that right. It was granted to us in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. It was granted to us by men who had long suffered under fear of retribution for speaking their own minds. It has been sustained by other men who fought and sometimes died to protect that right.You have been so deeply manipulated and intimidated by Jack that you seem to have forgotten one of the founding principles of this country. But let's get back to the simple question I asked earlier: Can you quote for us what rule was in place at the time of Joe's banning that justified - in your own mind - Joe being banned?

Hey,

For anybody not otherwise occupied, and may be interested, let's all gather around; BobK is going to tell people what we should do again, and how we should do it. Now he thinks that freedom of speech means freedom to be rude, domineering, and overbearing, but if you can keep your mind disengaged, it's kinda fun to watch him go. He wants me to explain the actions of somebody else that I never met, and I really can't do that, with any degree of confidence. It's amazing to me that he can not GET that simple reality. Aside from all that, I am not required to agree or disagree with either party in this endless squabble, and it's just silly to think otherwise.

I think Bob has been beating this dead horse for lots of years now. I can assure him, I really have no power to settle all of his grievances, and according to his wishes. Bob would be mistaken to believe otherwise.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Can you quote for us what rule was in place at the time of Joe's banning that justified - in your own mind - Joe being banned?

Red, so far, the answer is that you cannot quote such a rule that would have justified Joe's banning. Yet you were well aware of Joe being banned and you said nothing. That's all I wanted to establish. Thanks.

The title of this topic is "Hang gliding is in more trouble than I thought". I believe a big part of the problem lies with good men (and despite my criticism, I've always considered Red to be a good man) watching evil and doing nothing.

This pattern of behavior is not limited to hang gliding. I've seen it all too often in my lifetime. It's the behavior that's kept corrupt politicians in power all over the world. It's the pattern of behavior largely responsible for most of the atrocities ever committed by man.

It's not the kind of problem that can ever be fixed, but it can be pushed back against. I intend to do more of that with my remaining time. I welcome anyone willing to help.

[Red]

Can you quote for us what rule was in place at the time of Joe's banning that justified - in your own mind - Joe being banned?

So far, the answer is that you cannot quote such a rule that would have justified Joe's banning. Yet you were well aware of Joe being banned and you said nothing. That's all I wanted to establish. Thanks.

Bob,

What is in my mind is NOT your concern, and you would not like it anyway. Butt out.

[Bob Kuczewski]

It's O.K. Red. I'm not mad at you. I'm just disappointed.

For those who remember the last episode of M*A*S*H, I see folks like Red as being caught in the middle - much like the woman who smothered her own crying baby. It's horrible, and it's ugly, and it forces good men like Red (and Frank and Mike and others) to make decisions they shouldn't have to make. That's not to say that they aren't also responsible for their actions, but they are being put in a difficult situation.

Red shouldn't have to choose between standing up for Joe and being able to offer good advice to new pilots. That choice was forced on him by Jack Axaopoulos. That's the evil player in this discussion, and this community needs to stop feeding it.

If the new USHGA.aero can help do that, it would be a worthwhile service to the sport of hang gliding.