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Re: High Hat

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:51 am

Frank Colver wrote:II personally would not want to fly any craft that had any chance for divergent pitch or roll under some flight condition unless i could avoid that condition.


Me too! I don't want to work that hard to have fun!

In this case, I brought up the question of divergence as a thought experiment to test whether the high hat's pitch control was due purely to a static drag difference or a dynamic drag difference or both.

I proposed a configuration where the drag of the high hat would decrease with pitch down. All that's needed for that to be true is that the high hat be tilted forward rather than vertical or tilted aft. When tilted more forward, further pitch down would reduce its profile more quickly than when it is tilted less forward.

The problem that I had with that configuration was that the wing would also be reducing its drag as it pitched down, so it wouldn't be clear as to which would be reducing its overall drag faster. This is especially true since the wing is much larger than the high hat (and in the steeper part of the sine curve). But if the wing were already at a negative angle of attack, then it's drag would no longer be decreasing with further pitch down. That's the mental exercise that led to flying at a negative angle of attack. And it was only a marginally useful exercise if the high hat were raked forward. If the high hat were raked backward - even slightly - then it would be very difficult to put it in the region where pitch down would be reducing its drag at all.

Having gone through this exercise, I think that Kai Martin's original explanation of static drag differences is correct and leads to the stability that we saw in the video. I also think that this stability is further enhanced by the dynamic drag differences that result from pitch rotation.

The process of science is largely a process of challenging assumptions. You have to question everything. That's the path to finding the truth. I hope no one was offended in the process.
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Re: High Hat

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:39 am

I don't see how anyone could be offended by this discussion of physics.

I understand about when the high hat is pitched forward but I wonder if it could also occur when it is pitched back. This would be in a violent pitchover (hence my reference to Owens Valley pilots. Could the drag on the steeply pitched down wing be so high as to completely over power the high hat's drag.

But then, maybe I'm looking at a different situation than just having the wing at a high negative angle of attack. I may be only describing a tumble, in this case, which could happen with the high hat at any angle. In a tumble nothing is actually "flying" and is particularly prevalent in close coupled systems. In a real world tumble, the high hat device would probably break off and/or the pilot falls onto the wing. Either way, you better hope that reserve chute works. :o
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Re: High Hat

Postby JoeF » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:22 am

All, good to see some mix and soup on High Hat! Frank's aversion to divergent processes is to be kept mind and heart! One wants to live through experiments! :)

The early forum mentions of HH form a foundation, in part, for the exploration and for a cause that the video may not earn "new" in a full historical sense; careful tracing of HH technology will probably one day happen or be explicated richly. Meanwhile some further mix.

HHs for hang gliders might be sectioned: Big HHs (tail-less biplanes, ...,). Small HHs. Forward HHs (tending to canards). Rearward HHs (tending to conventional empennages). Static HHs. Dynamic HHs. Controllable HHs. Flat HHs. Airfoiled HHs. Tower-flap HHs. Balloon HHs. Reefable-flag HHs. Explosive HHs. Parachute HHs. Powered HHs (HPHHs, electro HHs, ...). Helicopter HHs. TWHH (tumble-wing HHs). Kited HHs. Noise-making HHs. Lighted HHs. Extending HHs. Flexible HHs. Rigid HHs. Variable-position HHs. Messaging HHs.

An early note indicated I had experimented in model form with a static HH and found some pleasant resultants. Then I have also carried a tendency to explore within a family of autorotational HHs (within which one finds categories, e.g., axis of rotation perpendicular to the main-wing average chord plane, perhaps with two counter-rotating pillars; or the HHs with axis of rotation parallel to the span of the main wing. There are variations possible within these themes. E.g., say slanted autorotational pairs of counter-rotating wings as HHs: As relative wind increases, the rate of rotation increases; as the relative wind decreases, the rate of rotation decreases; how will these play with main-wing pitching in hang glider flight? Braking autorotation, anyone?

HH larger than main pilot-holding wing:
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Re: High Hat

Postby JoeF » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 am

The intersection of drummer's high-hat and hang gliding's high hats is not empty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-hat
:roll:
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Re: High Hat

Postby Bill Cummings » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:26 pm

Any inertia damping?
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Re: High Hat

Postby JoeF » Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:51 pm

"Lee and Richards experimented with models. They developed a form having a circular lower wing with an auxiliary plane above the front half of the main wing. A full-size manned glider proved successful."

Quote from https://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/lee-richards-annular-glider.html
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Re: High Hat

Postby JoeF » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:23 pm

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Re: High Hat

Postby ARP » Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:31 pm

MarkII 001 (2017_12_30 17_34_37 UTC).jpg
MarkII 001 (2017_12_30 17_34_37 UTC).jpg (211.67 KiB) Viewed 951 times
This arrangement worked well with no problems with pitch stability.
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Re: High Hat

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:15 pm

That's a beautiful wing Tony. This shot is my favorite:

ARP.png
ARP.png (412.64 KiB) Viewed 945 times
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Re: High Hat

Postby ARP » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:25 pm

That shot is with my brother flying it. He was around 210lbs or a bit more at the time. I'm flying in one or two of the photos wearing the yellow jacket but weighed around 170lbs then. Latest version will hopefully tested soon.
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