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Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon May 02, 2016 10:00 pm

Advanced Fly on the wall landing.
Down wind, up hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyMeKHm_NO0
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Rick Masters » Tue May 03, 2016 8:41 am

    Hillside landings are an important technique for cross-country flying. You never really know where or when you are going to get drilled on a cross country flight. When winds are light or turbulent near the ground, you may enter a downwind component once you have committed to your approach. Or you may find obstacles such as boulders, uneven terrain or brush at your expected touch-down point. Or you may discover that what looked flat from the air, ain't!
    A counter-intuitive technique is to land against the slope of a hill. Pilots who practice hillside landings have many more options available to them at the critical moment of decision-making during emergency out-landings. During my years of XC flying in Owens Valley, I would deliberately seek out hillsides to practice up-slope landings. After a while, I came to realize up-slope landings, even with a light tailwind, were often safer than flat field landings.

You are not going to overshoot
    You are going to plant your hang glider right there. There ain't anywhere else to go.
You are not going to fly into the hill
    The first time you do this, it may seem like you are barreling straight into a wall, but that is not how it works. Your flare will be greatly - seemingly magically - enhanced due to two factors.
    1) In a flat field landing, the angle of your wing to the ground at flare is 50 to 70 degrees. Your glider is pushing air ahead of it and that air is happy to be rolling away from you as you are hoping to stop. But on an up-slope landing, your wing-to-ground angle is much less, say 30 to 40 degrees, and the air is being pushed more toward at the ground, creating a cushioning bubble that stops you rapidly. I remember how amazed I was when, after reading In Search Of World Records by George Worthington, I started landing up-slope and began a long series of perfect landings - not even dropping the base tube.
    2) If you are in a light tailwind, the upslope component will add a little lift at flare to counter, somewhat, the added speed. Your timing, to your amazement, will be perfect. As you approach your flare point, every cell in your body will be screaming, "I'd better do this right or I'm going to die!" Either way, you are going to stop quickly.     :twisted:

*Note: If you are still flying Torrey Pines, this may not be for you. As for strong downwind upslope landings... can you spell C R A T E R?
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed May 04, 2016 3:33 am

Great description of the "Fly on the Wall Landing", Rick!!!

I actually did a variation of the downwind, uphill, "fly on the wall" at Torrey in a special Condor 330 that had been beefed up to be used for towing ... paragliders.

It was Alan Chuculate's Condor. Paul Thornbury and I took it to Torrey to check it out before it was sold. Paul went first and had a great flight. I flew second and also had a good flight. As the winds got lighter (and the paragliders crowded the landing area), I found myself facing a beach landing. Instead, I decided to land up hill in the bowl just to the north of the RC mound. It was a perfect - on my feet - landing. That flight is among my fondest memories in the sport ... so far.    ;)

Thanks for that description Rick. Those are some good things to keep in mind when in that situation.

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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby reluctantsparrow » Wed May 04, 2016 6:49 am

Downwind, uphill landings are my fav.....the greater the steepness of the slope, the more tailwind you can handle.
I see one important thing missing from Ricks description.
a pilot must pull on enough speed to round out and MATCH the slope being landed on.....even if it is just for a short distance, a pilot must carry enough speed to actually glide UPhill for that short distance.
I was doing downwind/uphills routinely for many years because i would fly alone a lot in eastern, WA and didnt have a driver and i got so used to them, one time I forgot to pull on for that extra bit of speed needed to match the uphill slope for a short distance and the result was the crater rick speaks of.....
Flying at regular airspeed straight into a hill and simply flaring without carrrying enough speed to match the uphill slope for a short distance is quite painful....I realized at the last second I had not pulled on speed. I had gotten a bit lazy I guess......so I flew straight into a hill and just flared as hard as I could without matching the slope being landed on...and...ouch....
I had a great flare but my momentum just carried me straight into the hill and I went splat directly on my chest against the slope.....knocked all the wind outa me.....I didnt do it that way anymore...rs
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed May 04, 2016 12:20 pm

Very good addition Jim!!

One of the great things about a forum is that people can add their own different perspectives to a topic. Sometimes what one person says - while completely accurate - might not fully convey the information to another person reading.

When I was learning to fly airplanes, I was ready to solo, but my landings were just not very smooth. My instructor couldn't figure out the problem, so he had me fly with another instructor. The second instructor had me take off and then fly back around for a landing while he observed. We then took off again, and on the second landing, he told me to "take 3 big grabs of the trim wheel" on final. My landing was smooth as silk. My first instructor had, of course, told me to trim the plane, but he didn't notice that I wasn't continuing to trim it as I reduced speed. So I was holding a fair amount of back pressure (force) while touching down, and that was causing them to be less smooth than they might have been. I soloed shortly afterward.

Thanks for "pitching" in on the topic.    :salute:
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Rick Masters » Wed May 04, 2016 1:38 pm

a pilot must pull on enough speed to round out and MATCH the slope being landed on.....even if it is just for a short distance, a pilot must carry enough speed to actually glide UPhill for that short distance.

I think you may be compensating for a mental trick, a misperception, where your senses are telling you that the ground is not rushing by fast enough as you approach it.
You can land hot on the side of a hill.
You can coast uphill in ground effect.
That may make you feel more comfortable.
But after an uphill glide in ground effect, at the point of flare (past stall), the angle of your wing and forward speed is exactly the same as it would be coming straight into the hill in level flight.
Because at stall, you are no longer climbing. You are not flying uphill.
At flare (past stall), the cushion of air you build is exactly the same.
The argument is therefore more pertinent to the timing of the flare than how far you can coast uphill in ground effect.
The extra speed that will carry you up the hill for a short distance in ground effect is external to what actually happens at flare.
I say this reflecting on my up-slope landings.
Yes, I too felt more comfortable carrying extra speed and it may have provided a modicum of additional time for me to determine the correct moment of flare.
But the forward speed at flare from level flight or from "climbing" glide* are - at the moment of flare - exactly the same.
I present this as a matter of aerodynamics, not opinion.

*no such thing
Last edited by Rick Masters on Wed May 04, 2016 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby MikeLake » Wed May 04, 2016 1:52 pm

I wonder who was the first to give this technique a try and was it intentional?
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Rick Masters » Wed May 04, 2016 2:26 pm

Depends on how you define forward speed

Forward speed is defined in this case as speed along the horizontal vector.
At the moment of flare (past stall), I argue this speed is exactly the same for glider type regardless of initial angle of approach or speed.
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby brianscharp » Wed May 04, 2016 2:36 pm

What's your horizontal speed when you stall going straight up?
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Re: Advanced Fly on the wall landing.

Postby Rick Masters » Wed May 04, 2016 2:45 pm

You're not going to land on anything if you do that. (Maybe later :shock: )
If you're going to land on something, it's necessary to have a horizontal component.
For most hang gliders that horizontal component is around 12+ mph in still air.
Hang gliders at flare (past stall) are exhibiting deep or parachutal stall utilizing a cushion or ground effect.
This is outside of the range where angle of attack has much useful definition.
Note that in your thought example, the angle of attack does not change as stall is approached.
This is only possible in the absence of a horizontal vector.
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