[Bob Kuczewski]

There does seem to be a negative slant here which can come across as uninviting (AMHIK). Not sure "tear the other down to try to boost this one up" approach is a solid long term one. I think the "build the better one" might work though, but who is to say.

Good comments. As an engineer, I was trained to find the underlying truths behind any observed phenomena. Those underlying truths are what they are ... regardless of how they may make us feel.

I believe that hanggliding.org has fragmented the hang gliding community by forcibly isolating (banning) some of the best contributors to the sport. There is no better example than Joe Faust. Joe had come up with a very innovative approach to the hang gliding rating problem through his web site "ushgrs.org" (U.S. Hang Gliding Rating System). That site is a public record (ledger) of observed ratings in the hang gliding community. That public record could preserve our ratings even if USHPA went out of business. It was (and still is) a really great idea.

But Jack Axaopoulos ("sg" on hanggliding.org) didn't like that it was Joe's idea and that Jack couldn't control it. So Jack banned Joe. That's about the most clear example of how Jack and hanggliding.org have damaged our sport. There are many other examples such as the killing of the HGAA, and the banning of Scott Wise, and the destruction of the Torrey Hawks Forum, and so on. But none were as clear as the banning of Joe Faust.

So yes, it's good to be positive, but it's also important to remember that genuine injustices give rise to genuine complaints. Most of us remember the lofty introduction to the Declaration of Independence: "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..." and "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...". But how many of us remember the rest of that founding document? Please take a few minutes to skim it. It's a laundry list of complaints.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Button Gwinnett Lyman Hall George Walton

William Hooper Joseph Hewes John Penn Edward Rutledge Thomas Heyward, Jr. Thomas Lynch, Jr. Arthur Middleton

John Hancock Samuel Chase William Paca Thomas Stone Charles Carroll of Carrollton George Wythe Richard Henry Lee Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Harrison Thomas Nelson, Jr. Francis Lightfoot Lee Carter Braxton

Robert Morris Benjamin Rush Benjamin Franklin John Morton George Clymer James Smith George Taylor James Wilson George Ross Caesar Rodney George Read Thomas McKean

William Floyd Philip Livingston Francis Lewis Lewis Morris Richard Stockton John Witherspoon Francis Hopkinson John Hart Abraham Clark

Josiah Bartlett William Whipple Samuel Adams John Adams Robert Treat Paine Elbridge Gerry Stephen Hopkins William Ellery Roger Sherman Samuel Huntington William Williams Oliver Wolcott Matthew Thornton

Someone could certainly say that these founders were "just a bunch of negative complainers" ... and they would be right! But without their vision (and their complaining), we wouldn't have the United States of America.

The Declaration of Independence also contains a good bit of human psychology that's applicable to both USHPA and hanggliding.org:

"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed"

Jack knows that. He knows that he can get away with quite a bit and most of his sheeple will stay in line. Some might even defend him because they don't want to lose "the forms [forums?] to which they are accustomed".

Joe F. Looked up for me the last time I visited the Jack = SG website. I didn’t want to log in there to find out when it was because that would update my last visit. Joe posted the date which NOW would be about eleven years ago.
It was back then that I realized that Jack was banning, erasing and changing posts so I left for the HAWKS website after I vetted Bob Kuczewski.

Here's a link to Bill's request followed by Joe's report

Bill is one of those fairly rare people who will dig into something to get to the truth. Most people don't want to spend that much time. Bill verified that Jack was indeed banning people, erasing their posts, and even changing their posts to make it look like they'd said something that they didn't even say. Bill verified it - for himself - long before the recent banning of Joe Faust.

As I've said before, Jack's management of hanggliding.org isn't the only problem in the sport. But it has been a contributing factor. Jack has been able to significantly suppress innovations by people like Joe Faust. Jack has done this by banning, moving, deleting, and threatening. It's hard to report on those facts without appearing negative.

[spydermike]

The beef with Jack (and USHPA and the Torrey folks) is well documented here ad nauseum. Your site, your choice.

As a career engineer myself, part of the problem solving process is to also look for solutions and press forward. Typically I didn't have 10+ years to look for all underlying truths. However, this seems to be the forum with that focus. At some point solutions must be/are tried, if the end goal is to effect change. If they have been tried, I just can't tell that readily.

From my perspective, that other forum (hg.org) isn't that good. The activity there is dwindling as your underlying truths declare. The activity here seems even less. Neither seem to get the new/potential student traffic. Gee, I wonder how we got into hanggliding before the internet...hmmm.

Not sure about comparing this situation to the creation of a nation, it seems like a bit of a stretch...but, if it keeps you motivated...

[DaveSchy]

In the late 70s, I became a certified instructor.
At that time it seemed that hang gliding could be as big as skiing, and, in fact, a decent winter/summer symbiosis seemed very possible. Folks like Recreation Northwest (Ken Fine and Dave Freeman) had companies that stayed busy year around teaching both sports. Its important to note that they also had day jobs.
The risk/reward for flying was enhanced by our coverage by Lloyd's of London. That's a lot of credibility.
Ski areas could imagine lifts running in summer for mountain bikes and pilots. The "daredevil" persona of very early hang gliding pilots became the weekend fun flying of the 80s. We were community members, parents, working folks.

A large part of what happened was monetization.

I remember asking the owner of a flying school in So Calif. why he wanted to do it. His answer was he wanted to make a million dollars. I remember laughing and saying it was far more likely to be his real estate that would get him that kind of money.

The national club got greedy when the paragliding community wanted to piggyback our insurance and Lloyd's dropped us all like a bag of laundry. The Chelan XC Classic went from funds donated to Search and Rescue to funding a fancy air conditioned vacation for the meet organizer (known as Dweebus Blob).

The fun was slipping away into online Oz Report and hanggliding. org fiefdoms, 10000 dollar rigid wings, 7000 dollar gliders, 1500 dollar variometers... Insurance waivers...it didn't take long at that point for hang gliding to surpass the affordability of the weekend warrior.
The death spiral had begun.

What do we do? Put the emphasis back on having fun with the goal of subsidizing our sport, not making millions perhaps? At Capitol City Gliders one of our best ad campaigns emphasized making flying dreams come true!
We lost our focus and face it, now we're old too.
It's the love of flying that made USHGA the band of brothers and sisters we once were.

[Bob Kuczewski]

As a career engineer myself, part of the problem solving process is to also look for solutions and press forward.

Agreed. I think part of the solution is a big tent for hang gliding ... as hanggliding.org was back in 2008. It was a good site back then and I was one of his biggest fans. But Jack lost his way when he began banning people for disagreeing with him. We are too small a sport to divide ourselves like that. We built the U.S. Hawks here to be inclusive, and that's why Jack systematically alters any links to this forum. He will change your posts if you dare to post a link to ushawks.org. That's insane.

Another part of the solution is the strong use of the Recreational Land Use statutes and waivers when needed instead of insurance. We are too small a sport to bear the burden of insurance. Dockweiler has been successfully using waivers for 5 years now. That model works ... but not for USHPA. They want to force the insurance model on our sport because it's the only way to guarantee their income stream.

Not sure about comparing this situation to the creation of a nation, it seems like a bit of a stretch...but, if it keeps you motivated...

I just wanted to point out the "negativity" that was the basis for one of our most revered founding documents. Negativity isn't always bad.

Good post Mike. Thanks!!

[Bob Kuczewski]

In the late 70s, I became a certified instructor. ...

Great post Dave!!

That was a very concise and insightful review of how we got here. I believe that if enough people could really understand what you've written, we might be able to turn it around.

Thanks!!  

[spydermike]

Not sure about comparing this situation to the creation of a nation, it seems like a bit of a stretch...but, if it keeps you motivated...

I just wanted to point out the "negativity" that was the basis for one of our most revered founding documents. Negativity isn't always bad.

You have pointed this out many times (three years ago almost to the day on another similar thread topic and as many six or more times in other topics)...like I said "ad nauseum". Time for a break from here.

[Bob Kuczewski]

...like I said "ad nauseum".

There's a saying:

      A lie told often enough becomes the truth.

I am just hopeful that a truth told often enough can also become the truth.