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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby reluctantsparrow » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:31 am

finally had a clear, non rainy day here yesterday in the great Northwest....took off from Dog mtn in light wind....caught a good thermal on the south side to about a grand over launch....roll control was exceptional now that I have lowered my center of mass by 4 inches....I also tested the top speed available with my new design and easily broke 50 mph on my old super sport!!!! Houston, we now have SPEED IN SUPRONE!!! Also kept my feet in the fully suprone position for landing and it was a piece of cake. A total non-event.....even though I had not secured my wheels from shifting side to side and my right wheel drifted right on the basetube, caught up against the DT and threw me into a sleight spin to the right during landing the landing was gentle and safe.....The "airbag" built into the PG harness totally kept my bottom from contacting terra firma....felt like sitting down on a feather bed..
This was my FIRST real thermal flight in Suprone. And even though I kinda felt like a newbie thermal pilot in this position I had no problem staying with the core. During and After this flight I took notice that I had no sore shoulders, no sore neck, roll control was effortless, I could pull in for as much speed as I desired....No rotation is required for landing....I think we really have something here. The only potential "problem" I encountered was the "air scoop" on the front of the "airbag" did slightly "catch" on the basetube as I let out the bar after pulling in for speed. Wasn't a problem really, but it provided a slight "jerk" as I let the bar out....so....cleaner harness would eliminate that...no air bag...I am going to track down one of those fancy "pods" the PG's are flying with...probably with foam under the arse instead of an airbag.....One other problem that will be solved by more experience is I did misjudge altitude for my approach....being all laid back while doing an approach is a new perspective. So used to rotating to the uprights...so it threw off my judgement a bit and my vario was too far away so the fact I was in rapidly sinking air did not "register" right away with me....I pulled it off but made my final turn pretty damn low....I need to remind myself that I am not a hang 4 with 45 years experience in this flying position.....I am a newbie.... I will post the video of the entire flight for all to scrutinize....
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:48 am

Great report. I look forward to seeing your video.

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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby reluctantsparrow » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:03 am

here it is Bob,...Roll control was almost Too good....top speed reached was 50 plus...I also experimented with landing in the suprone position (kept my legs up over the base tube)
Got a little sideways on launch...the increased roll control caught me sleeping but it worked out fine as soon as I woke up a little...LOL...
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:17 am

Thanks Jim.

I just watched the video. Nice work ... on everything!!!

I enjoyed watching your vario as you themalled up.

You could either find a more streamlined harness (as you mentioned) or streamline that one with some minor surgery.

Watching your flight makes me glad I still have my PG harness. :thumbup:
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby reluctantsparrow » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:09 pm

Thanks Bob, Yep, Before "surgery" I decided to see what I could do with "tape" this morning and the bubble on the bottom is no longer with us....RIP BUBBLEBUTT.... :angel:
I prefer landing on my feet anyway...Can't wait to fly again without Sir Bubblebutt crimping my style..... :twisted:
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby Rick Masters » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:35 pm

I always suspected there was a better use for those things other than planters!
Image
PG harness planter.
Unfortunately, no egg was found.
------
Alternative title: 500-pound man flies off Dog
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Scary thoughts
1) Harness gets caught on something. (I can tell you in great detail what that's like.)
2) Escape big sink - can't do it: way too much drag. (I know, you are working toward a clean harness.)
3) Test piloting is dangerous - how short is your chute toss?
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Cool thought:
Wow, a harness with a skid behind the bar!
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Video I like to see:
You and your buddy off your port wingtip pull in to 50 mph together.
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby reluctantsparrow » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:40 am

Rick Masters wrote:Scary thoughts
1) Harness gets caught on something. (I can tell you in great detail what that's like.)
2) Escape big sink - can't do it: way too much drag. (I know, you are working toward a clean harness.)
3) Test piloting is dangerous - how short is your chute toss?
------
Cool thought:
Wow, a harness with a skid behind the bar!
------
Video I like to see:
You and your buddy off your port wingtip pull in to 50 mph together.


short chute toss is a valid concern. Kept me awake last night for a short time. I really do not know and that is something I need to give more attention to.

Harness with a skid behind the bar.....I like it....

Buddy of my wingtip...good idea but I need a cleaner harness like you say...I have already removed the "bubble butt"....here is a shot of "jerry Furnell of austrailia flying a clean harness and he said in comps on glide with prone pilots in similar topless craft he was gliding just as well....Actually, it was his competitors that made the comments concerning his glide...but yes....getting a side by side on video....consider it done...sjhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EsoNZu8ZYG8 ... G_1207.JPG
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:28 am

short chute toss is a valid concern. Kept me awake last night for a short time. I really do not know and that is something I need to give more attention to.

Lacking any actual experience with PG equipment and its wishful thinking design philosophy, I suspect the PG harness on a hang glider is a poor choice for a parachute toss. I know that with a chest or belly-mounted chute, I would be able to exercise maximum strength and accurate aim, but taking an extra, time-consuming step trying to tug that chute out from under my a** is not in any way ideal for maximum performance of human musculature. Add that to the proximity of the base tube and the formerly free space now taken up by the handlebar, plus the usual complications presented by the side wires, and you're in a trap of your own making. I'd think all you could do is drop the chute because you might be banging your legs against the downtubes and not have enough room to pull it up between your legs. That is not a good option because "down" is rarely "down" when you are in trouble. As your ability to chuck that chute through a hole has been compromised, I have to say you need a ballistic chute fired out the top with that deadly combination.
    There are a couple "gotchas" that lurk out there for hang glider test pilots. One is wishful thinking; the other is not seeing what you're looking at. The fix requires an ability to envision disastrous scenarios and guard against them. But every problem doesn't necessarily have an effective solution. Sometimes a seemingly good idea has a fatal flaw. The flaw that you miss will be the one that gets you.
    Like you, I enjoyed fooling around with my gliders, always trying to improve the glide. After the 1981 XC-Classic, Klaus Kohmstedt gave me his Sport Keller harness. It might have been the first one in the US. I had just picked up a 190 Moyes Meteor for $500 from Mike Smith in Los Osos that had been used on a trike. It handled well with my hook-in weight of 220. It was sleeved, heavy at 90 pounds and just a tad baggy. I really liked the fact that it was sleeved since I was flying the Owens Valley. I didn't care that it was heavy because hang gliders don't weigh anything at takeoff or landing. It was a thermal monster that would force you down in your harness under creaking rigging like you wouldn't believe, but I wondered if I could improve the glide ratio between thermals.
    Those were the days when sail tensioning was becoming a big deal and everybody was retrofitting their gliders for greater crossbar tension. We didn't see too many problems from it. Maybe a couple sail failures stemming from trailing edge damage. But all the crossbar failures seemed to happen in tumbles where the gig was up, anyway, so we didn't worry about it. Most guys were using rope pinch/lock hardware from sailing, like they still do today, but I rigged a 10-inch long handle on my right downtube, hinged about a foot above the base tube. When up, the sail was loose. When I pulled it down in flight, it held its position and I could boogy. It was easy to operate and seemed... foolproof.
                                     :srofl:
    I flew with polarized glass lenses to see dust in thermals. They were big ones, pilot type. I'd been flying the Moyes for a year with the lever and loved it. I launched off Horseshoe and thermaled north along the Sierra. It was a good day. I was at 11,000 feet, leaving Lone Pine Peak, when I bumped the lever with my helmet doing some aggressive adverse yaw thermaling. The lever, under load, snapped up and struck me in the face. The tip of the handle shattered my left lens and sprayed my eyes with tiny shards of broken glass. I knew if I blinked, I'd be finished. I headed out to Lone Pine Creek above Lone Pine at Movie Flat, painfully holding my eyes open, barely able to see with my left eye through the unstoppable rush of tears, unable to see at all through my left eye, stripped of depth perception, spiraling down. I had to flood my eyes. I needed a lot of water. I had to land at a creek. I set down okay behind Irene Cuff's Movie Ranch, my eyes streaming, and ran to the creek. I stuck my head under the water and shook it, eyes open, until I couldn't hold my breath any longer. That did it. I could see and the glass was gone.
    So I changed the attachment of the tension rope a little bit and it stayed locked in place like it should. I got a new lens and figured I'd solved the problem. And I had. The lever remained locked the way I wanted from that moment forward. Then a few months later, it almost killed me. I never saw it coming. On another flight from Horseshoe, I was approaching thermaling the Sierra close to a big mile-high cliff above the Aberdeen lava fields. The thermals were roaring up the vertical granite sides. They were choppy and violent and fun. I was climbing strong, circling near the face with just enough room to recover and turn away if I got dumped. I hit some good turbulence, fell out, pulled in the bar to recover in a steep right hand dive when the little nylon rope that supported my helmet somehow found its way under the handle and snagged. I was locked in a steep right hand spiral next to the cliff. I could only release my hand to deal with the problem in the short moments when I was turning away from the cliff, then I'd have to adjust the spiral as best I could to avoid hitting the rocks. I popped the lever up but the line was still caught. Grab the bar. I ripped off my glove with my teeth. Grab the bar. Tugged at the line. Grabbed the bar. I was done. I was gonna throw my chute. But Rich Pfeiffer had told me that in situations like this, it was better to just jump out of your harness because the cliff was just going to collapse your chute and beat you to death so it was better to get it over with quick. I gave one more tug. The line popped free. I centered and departed the spiral and the cliff face, knowing I'd almost eaten it.
    So you never know. You start fooling around with changes, you think everything's all right, you think you've got it under control. And guess what? It's nothing but wishfull thinking. You are looking right at the problem but didn't see it. Stay well, my friend. Don't let those handlebars snag your harness in turbulence.
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby reluctantsparrow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:26 am

Thanks Rick. Thanks for the reality check. I tried a "look, grab, pull" yesterday hanging from a rafter....couldn't get the damn thing outa the pocket under the seat....Maybe it is because I had "taped" up the "bubble" a bit too tight and the chute was now under pressure from my own weight. Maybe it was because an HG chute with all the fixings is a much larger package to pull out....doesn't matter...once I got it out I realized that "joining" the PG emergency handle to the regular handle left me with a diaper dangling down from
almost 1 1/2 feet ..a deathtrap. woulda had to use both hands to get it out....then I woulda had to use both hands to reel it in and get a grip on the original handle...THEN I woulda had to lift it up to "look, throw, pull"....with the flybar in the way, being tossed and turned by a broken ship. I remember Butch Peachy spiraling in at horseshoe canyon because there was so much centrifugal force he could not even reach up to GRAB his handle on his chest....
Okay....I have always been lucky and I am not afraid to die but I really don't want to die stupid....NO MORE FLYING until I figure this one out.....thanks...sj

P. S...I can't afford anything, let alone a ballistic chute, but even if I could afford a ballistic we all know ballistics are not as dependable as a hand thrown. I am thinking through a chest mount configuration.....would I mount the chute to pull down or pull up? Pulling down leaves the chute low and would require an additional raising of the arm to perform the toss.
Pulling up would leave the chute high and ready for the throw. I am thinking a chest mounted container that pulls up....not down.....would be my shortest toss time other than a ballistic.
Funny how I woke up two days ago all worried about the "toss time"....then you give me a wake up call so I finally go out and try a "look, grab, pull"....(a total failure)...
Must not be my time to go....thanks man....reluctant sparrow

PPS.....Aint giving up suprone with the bars though....I am not going back to prone....The experience is better than I expected. the thermalling is effortless......NO sore muscles anywhere on my body.....I could fly all day in this position and I am freshly re-addicted to hang gliding...so this needs to be figured out....
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Re: Triangle Control Frame or A-Frame

Postby Rick Masters » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:44 am

Thanks for the reality check.

Always glad to help.

Now you starry-eyed soaring parachutists should try practicing a reserve deployment in a 3G death spiral with your wishfully-designed harnesses.
You can create an artificial 3G death spiral by attaching yourselves to a well-fastened, rotationally powered vertical pole with a stout cable engineered to a safety factor above the breaking strength of your harness, whatever that is - hopefully more than 3Gs.
BTW, your G load can go a lot higher than 3Gs in your famously fatal nose-down spiral dives.
(You wouldn't believe how far some occupants, unable to deploy, were hurled from their parachutes when their lines parted!)
I have named this the Spiraling Paraglider Load Application Test, or SPLAT test, for short.

Hang glider pilots, you don't need to go there.
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Image
This is one of the coolest setups I've ever seen.
Of particular note is the design of the handles which reduce the risk of snagging the harness.
And I love how clean it is.

Image
Back in the 1980s, I was trying to dream up a survivable high-altitude hang gliding harness to survive wave riding from the Sierra to Texas like the sailplane pilots had been attempting for years.

This would require a really fast wing, probably a rigid wing, and a warm, heated harness capable of providing oxygen.
If it worked, fatigue would be a big factor and suprone would likely help in a big way.
The pilot might need a pressurized suit, as well.
I remember trying to talk Woody Woodruff into this, but he had better sense.
Today a foot-launched sailplane would be the obvious choice.
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