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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:34 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:Bob really what will I accomplish by setting up My Predator?

  • Fun
  • Exercise
  • Getting outdoors
  • A connection to the sport
  • Refamiliarization with your glider
  • Greater understanding of the tensioning problem

Chris McKeon wrote:Do You believe that If I set-up My Glider over and over, that the tightness in the Sail will subside?

I am not absolutely certain, but I'm inclined to believe that it will.

Chris McKeon wrote:Bob You might be on to something here, please give Me Your thoughts, or maybe even Your experiences regarding; Having a Wing getting to Tight over time.

My paragliding instructor explained that a paraglider's lines don't normally carry enough weight to keep them stretched, and he showed me a method for restretching them from time to time. It turns out that some of the lines carry more weight than others due to non-uniform aerodynamic loading. This causes the less loaded lines to shrink more leading to a modified wing shape. By manualy stretching each one with equal load, you can restore them to factory lengths.

I haven't done a lot of research, but Wikipedia has a related article here:

      Dimensional stability (fabric)

And if none of that motivates you, I'm still waiting for those final measurements to build a computer model.    :thumbup:
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:02 am

So I am on the Lookout For a fairly light, a small Block and Tackle set-up that I will be ablet to attach to the end of My Keel. Then I will attach the hook? to My Haul-Back. I will then be able to Tension My Predator all By My Self. So I will ask Clay down at Ace Hardware when Kathleen and I go down to pick up our Weed eater.

See I can no longer Tension My Predator by Myself. John said to Me that His Predator has also become hard to Tension.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:44 pm

OK, it is Monday October Third. I just got off the Phone from talking with John about My idea that may be helpful to Me regarding the Tensioning of My Predator. I told John that I will go down to Ace Hardware so that I might be able to get a SMALL block and tackle so that I will be able to attach one end to the end of the keel, and the other end to the Haul-Back. Any thoughts by anyone? One thought that I have is that I will look for a couple of bushings to use for the two holes that I drill into the can, so that the Rope that I use will not be cut by the sharp metal in rhe can.

Well' Does anyone have any ideas? "Penny for Your Thoughts"
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:57 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:OK, it is Monday October Third. I just got off the Phone from talking with John about My idea that may be helpful to Me regarding the Tensioning of My Predator. I told John that I will go down to Ace Hardware so that I might be able to get a SMALL block and tackle so that I will be able to attach one end to the end of the keel, and the other end to the Haul-Back. Any thoughts by anyone? One thought that I have is that I will look for a couple of bushings to use for the two holes that I drill into the can, so that the Rope that I use will not be cut by the sharp metal in rhe can.

Well' Does anyone have any ideas? "Penny for Your Thoughts"


Home Depot:









PriceRatingSizeLinkPicture
$7.97420 lbs1 1/2 inchhttps://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-Zinc-Plated-Rigid-Single-Pulley-44144/205887587
Pulley_420lb_rated_s.jpeg
Pulley_420lb_rated_s.jpeg (4.53 KiB) Viewed 1236 times
$5.48110lbs1 1/4 inchhttps://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-4-in-Nickel-Plated-Fixed-Pulley-43344/205887589
Pulley_110lb_rated_s.jpeg
Pulley_110lb_rated_s.jpeg (5.37 KiB) Viewed 1236 times
$3.9750 lbs1 1/4 inchhttps://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-4-in-Nickel-Plated-Swivel-Pulley-43334/205887648
Pulley_50lb_rated_s.jpeg
Pulley_50lb_rated_s.jpeg (6.45 KiB) Viewed 1236 times
$7.9730 lbs1 1/2 inch doublehttps://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-Nickel-Plated-Swivel-Double-Pulley-42604/205887572
Pulley_30lb_rated_s.jpeg
Pulley_30lb_rated_s.jpeg (6.42 KiB) Viewed 1236 times
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Re: Predator Model

Postby JoeF » Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:19 pm

These two pages might have something for the challenges:
https://stingysailor.com/2021/05/08/6-w ... ngs-sails/
https://www.dartsailsandcovers.co.uk/ma ... nd-covers/
==============================================
Could the following have something for the challenges?
1. Shrinkage will slightly change things; will the change be noticeable (besides the haul-back challenge)?
2. Will accepting the shrinkage and applying super tension to reach the grab put unwanted compression stress on the keel? If so, consider 3. below.
3. Would John approve of adding a sail cleat to result in the tension desired and favorable haulback?
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:14 am

I didn't have time to add an explanation to my earlier post with the pulleys, so here it is:

I would wrap some protective tape around the keel aft of the rear wire attachment point. Then I would use a simple hose clamp to clamp a light cord to the keel (with appropriate protection for the cord). I would tie a small pulley (like one of the one's listed earlier) to the haul-back line. Pass the rope from the hose clamp through the pulley and back toward the rear of the keel. This will give you a 2 to 1 advantage when hauling back. But more importantly, it will let you tension it to some degree and then tie it off so the sail can "relax" at that new tension. Then after a few hours, add some more tension and tie it off again. Here's a sketch of what that might look like:

Single_Pulley_HaulBack_640.png
Single_Pulley_HaulBack_640.png (59.41 KiB) Viewed 1236 times


This drawing doesn't show it, but you might want to tie the loose end (aft of the hose clamp) back to the line running from the clamp to the pulley so it doesn't get away if it slips through the hose clamp. You might also add a small loop at that point to tie off the free end of the tensioning cord.

Now you could add more pulleys to gain greater mechanical advantage (3 to 1, 4 to 1, ...), but I think the 2 to 1 sketched here should be sufficient for a sail that's just a bit too tight. More importantly, the 2 to 1 advantage is less likely to break anything!

And speaking of breaking things, this setup gives you the ability to tie off the tension so you can inspect for where anything might be binding. I would do that initially with practically no tension. When you're sure that nothing else is binding (misrouted wires for example), then you can begin to slowly increase the tension as I've mentioned above.

Be sure that you do this in a safe place where the glider is properly tied down so it doesn't get away and damage itself or anything else.

Also, to address Joe's points, I've had haulback challenges with a number of gliders (including my own Falcon). It seems to be most pronounced when the glider hasn't been flown for a long time. It may be worsened by cycling of temperature and moisture in storage. I've also seen some of the early Falcons develop a pretty severe "puckering" along the leading edge between the battens on some older beach gliders. I suspect that these changes do affect flight characteristics to some degree, but they still seemed to fly pretty well (at least at the beach).

Regarding compression of the keel, that might be an issue, but I suspect that the potential flight loads on the haulback system are quite a bit greater than what comes from tensioning in normal circumstances. So the keel should be designed for more than that amount of compression stress.

Regarding the haulback cleat, that's exactly what we did with Little Hawk. But Little Hawk uses a rope for a haulback and not a steel cable. I don't think a rope in a cleat would pass HGMA standards. Now what I have seen (and you may remember this), is that some of the Condor's at Windsports have an extra "tang" bolted to the original haulback tang. I'm not sure if that's standard from the factory or an improvised modification. But it does add about an extra inch to the haulback line. So that's always an option.

By the way Joe, while I was looking for that Little Hawk link, I found this photo:

CutCrossBar.JPG
CutCrossBar.JPG (28.56 KiB) Viewed 1234 times


Please notice what I'm holding in my right hand.    ;)
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:24 am

Thanks Guys for Your thoughts regarding how My Predator has Me under tension. I am wondering if instead of only running the cord through one Pulley that is attached to the Haul-Back. Maybe I will run the cord through double pulleys for the mechanical advantage. Or then again maybe I will regain My Strength,
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Well I am a Predator Pilot with a Flight Plan. My Plan ias as follows; To really truly begin working My Body in Earnest. In fact, after I type this I will Head out Front in order that I can do some Dumbell presses. such as grabbing a Dumbell off the Ground then lifting it and pressing as High as I can. Dumbbell Presses such as these will cause me to lift the Dumbbell in an just short of 8'. I want to be able to do a Full Extension Flair upon Landing that great Big Condor. This; This Body prepping I am doing with My Body in order so that I will not do that dreaded, Foul act, I so hope to not whack that Condor.

I also want to SHOUT OUT A big THANK-you to all of YOU HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGING me to stay on My Comeback. Isee it aas it always has been with Me. I want to Climb to Cloud-Base, then continue to Climb. Because We all know that Taking one's aspirations to the Maximum, is a good Place to begin One's Quest.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:56 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:Thanks Guys for Your thoughts regarding how My Predator has Me under tension.


:srofl:    :srofl:    :srofl:    :srofl:    :srofl:   


Chris McKeon wrote:I am wondering if instead of only running the cord through one Pulley that is attached to the Haul-Back. Maybe I will run the cord through double pulleys for the mechanical advantage. Or then again maybe I will regain My Strength,


You may find that you get diminishing returns from adding more pulleys. Let's assume that it takes 100 pounds of force to set the haulback in place. By adding one pulley, you can cut that down to 50 pounds of pull. That's a 50 pound difference!! By adding a second pulley, you can cut the pull down to 33 pounds. But that's only 17 pounds less than the 50 required for one pulley. By adding a third pulley, you can cut the pull down to 25 pounds. But that's only 8 pounds less than the 33 required for two pulleys. By adding a fourth pulley, you can cut the pull down to 20 pounds. But that extra pulley only saved you 5 pounds from the three pulley configuration. So the biggest "bang for the buck" is going from 100 down to 50 with the first pulley. Each additional pulley is contributing the same amount of cost and complexity but saving you less and less force for each one. The following diagrams show each of these examples.

One pulley cuts the load in half. So it would take 50 pounds of pull to move 100 pounds of load.

One_Half_640.png
One_Half_640.png (6.15 KiB) Viewed 1223 times


Two pulleys cut the load into a third. So it would take 33 pounds of pull to move 100 pounds of load.

One_Third_640.png
One_Third_640.png (10.46 KiB) Viewed 1223 times


Three pulleys cut the load into a fourth. So it would take 25 pounds of pull to move 100 pounds of load.

One_Fourth_640.png
One_Fourth_640.png (14.48 KiB) Viewed 1223 times


Four pulleys cut the load into a fifth. So it would take 20 pounds of pull to move 100 pounds of load.

One_Fifth_640.png
One_Fifth_640.png (18.73 KiB) Viewed 1223 times


Note that these examples show the keel anchors on the left and the haulback anchors on the right. In other words, all of the anchors shown on the left are connected to the keel. Similarly all of the anchors shown on the right are connected to the haulback line. Also note that multiple pulleys (on either side) could be physically grouped together in a single housing such as a typical "block and tackle" configuration. They're shown here as individual pulleys for clarity.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:36 pm

So Bob, I believe that I will wait and see what John says. But you might be onto something. Maybe the deal might very well end up being one or maybe two pulleys. This is so cool for Me to be working on this Problem. Just to be able to be Physically able to do the Yard Work that I have been doing around here ay Home is great. {Predator Tension Problem} John told Me that His Predator also has become hard to tension. So it is nice to know that I am not the Lone Ranger. Well figure out a proper remedy.

I must say that I simply Love this Sport of ours, i really do. Also I am just Dying to try out this new Light weight Body of Mine when I Fly My Predator for the first time in Twelve and a Half Years.
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