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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:03 pm

Price wars in the world regarding poles of telescopic tubes,
e.g., explore:
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/carbon ... -pole.html

Keep tube segments clean!

Inspection of CF tubes?
Knowing the limits of use of a telescopic spar in a particular HG design for a particular conservative flight use???
Wrestle with a HG for tiny-packing made of aluminum telescopic beams vs made of CF telescopic beams vs made of fiberglass-epoxy telescopic tubes??????
When to have a tapered telescopic spar in a HG vs a non-tapered telescopic spar? Recall there are various taper means (diameter taper, strength taper, diameter and strength taper).

The Joe Sock competes with the fittings seen at HERE.
===================
I am not recommending any of their solutions; their solution set does not include the Joe Sock proposed solution:

=========================================
Some teasing studies: :?: :idea:
:arrow: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1151918A1/en
:arrow: Ram-air wing with airframe: https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2007030702A/en
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:09 pm

Some progressive (hopefully) optional design tweaks for the Joe Sock is surfacing. Herein will be described an option arrangement for a Joe Sock. I do not yet have a name for the arrangement:
Have a heavy cord ring perhaps made by winding many times about a mandrel a thin string line of Dyneema to finally build up to the heavy end product ring; finally tie off the start and end of the line used to make the more bulky ring The major radius of the resulting ring or torus can be loosely larger that the larger of two mating telescopic tubes. An optional wind is the wreathing in-and-out wrapping or helical coiling. Such cord might be called the collar ring of the version of a Joe Sock being described herein.

The for the other main part of the option: Form a ring of flat ribbon or light webbing of nylon or Dyneema or the like; the perimeter of the this ring will equal approximate the the twice the sum of three distances: overlap of the assemble two telescoping tubes, diameter of the inner telescopic tube, and another overlap. Thus let overlap of the tubs be symbolized as P. Let diameter of the inner smaller telescopic tube be symbolized as D. Then the perimeter of the desired ring of flat ribbon or webbing will be 2(D+2P) approximately. Or expanded: 2D+4P. Most of the ribbon will be pressed into large telescopic tube and generally fill the gap between the inner surface of the large tube and the outer surface of the small telescopic tube. When assembled one will find at a gap two layers of the ribbon or webbing. Such occurs on the space on one side of the tubes and again on the other side of the tubes. Maybe call this larger ribbon or webbing ring or loop by toe part.

But here is how the two loose parts join to become a version of a Joe Sock: Surround the collar part with a very open toe part; dip half of the toe part into the interior of the collar part until the toe part dipping reaches the other side of the toe part so that one sees a two-layer arrangement of the toe part material.

To use this version of the Joe Sock: stuff the toe part into the interior of the larger telescopic tube while keeping the collar loosely outside of the working end of the large telescopic tube; then place the smaller telescopic tube into the interior of the larger telescopic tube to press the toe part that was stuffed. The smaller telescopic tube will stay inside the collar. Pushing the smaller telescopic tube will tension the toe part and cinch the collar at the end edge of the larger telescoping tube.

The collar is to be loose except where the toe part ribbon presses on the collar. The looseness could be effectively used for rooting stay lines, and other rigging lines depending on the design of the hang glider using the Joe Sock. In one design underway at some Joe Sock collars will be a line to the kingpost, a line to the queen post, a line diagonal staying a beam-edged rectangle's shape. Things need to be tested for function and safety.

One potential use of this version of a Joe Sock is the ability to easily shim the toe part to firm a gap filling, if needed. A gap occurs between two telescopic tubes; fill that gap with raw Joe Sock or a Joe Sock with some added shim as needed. Shim material, if needed would be set between the two layers of the toe part ribbon or webbing on both sides of tubes telescoping. If a shim is to be permatized, some Super Glue might be used if such glue does not degrade the ribbon or webbing.

Safety note: The edge of the entering smaller telescopic tube should be radiused so that a sharp cutting edge is not kept; better will be a low-mass separable plug that exhibits a smooth rounded dome so that the pressed toe part is not cut or highly worn.

CollarToeJoeSock.png
Paper rough model of a collar ring and a toe ribbon ring intertwined. Paper model widths are not to scale.
CollarToeJoeSock.png (273.55 KiB) Viewed 813 times

=============================
I let Chat GPT 3.5 have a go at cleaning up some of my prose above. Here below is the Chat GPT's effort:
Title: Enhanced Joe Sock Design for Hang Gliding

Introduction:
The following design proposes optional improvements to the Joe Sock, a critical component in hang gliding equipment. This enhanced version incorporates two main elements: the "Collar Ring" and the "Toe Part." These components come together to create a versatile Joe Sock, offering improved functionality and safety.

Collar Ring:

To create the "Collar Ring," wrap a heavy[[sic, light thin string]] cord, such as Dyneema, multiple times around a mandrel. Secure the ends to form a ring.
The Collar Ring's major radius should be larger than the larger of the two mating telescopic tubes.
Optional: Wind the cord in a helical coiling pattern for added strength.
This cord can be referred to as the "Collar Ring" in this Joe Sock design.

Toe Part:

The "Toe Part" consists of a ring made from flat ribbon or lightweight webbing material, such as nylon or Dyneema.
The ring's perimeter should approximately equal twice the sum of three measurements: the overlap of the assembled telescopic tubes (P), the diameter of the inner telescopic tube (D), and another overlap.
Mathematically, this is expressed as 2(D+2P) or 2D+4P.
Most of the ribbon will be inserted into the larger telescopic tube, filling the gap between the two tubes, creating two layers of ribbon material on either side of the tubes.

Assembly:

Assemble the Joe Sock by surrounding the Collar Ring with the Toe Part.
Dip half of the Toe Part into the interior of the Collar Ring, ensuring it reaches the other side of the Toe Part, creating a two-layer arrangement of the Toe Part material.

Usage:

To use this Joe Sock version, insert the Toe Part into the interior of the larger telescopic tube while keeping the Collar loosely outside.
Place the smaller telescopic tube into the larger one, compressing the Toe Part.
The smaller telescopic tube will remain inside the Collar, and pushing it will tension the Toe Part, cinching the Collar securely at the end of the larger telescopic tube.
The Collar should remain loose except where it's cinched by the Toe Part, providing opportunities for attaching stay lines and rigging lines as needed for hang glider design.

Shimming and Safety:

This Joe Sock design allows for easy shimming of gaps between telescopic tubes.
Shim material can be placed between the two layers of the Toe Part ribbon or webbing on both sides of the telescopic tubes.
For permanent shimming, consider using a suitable adhesive like Super Glue, ensuring it doesn't degrade the ribbon or webbing.
To prevent injury, ensure the entering edge of the smaller telescopic tube is rounded or has a smooth, low-mass separable plug instead of a sharp cutting edge.
In conclusion, this enhanced Joe Sock design offers improved functionality, versatility, and safety for hang gliding equipment, making it a valuable addition to the sport.

:arrow: :arrow: Notice the redaction by ChatGPT resulted in using "heavy" instead of a light string. Wanted is that multiple roundings of a string form a toroidal that is heavier.
:arrow: And Chat may have missed that the separable plug to end the inserting end of the smaller telescopic tube needs to be a highly radiused dome to lower the wear that will occur at the interface of the toe part and the end of the smaller telescopic tube.

:arrow: Using such Joe Sock will allow the telescopic tube stack to collapse simply to a clean projection-free single item for tote; one will see the large outside tube only if the inner tubes are shorter or same length as the larger telescopic tube. And the inside of the smallest tube will be free and clean for stowing possibly other parts of a HG, perhaps a batten or rib or stiffener or other parts that may fit the space during tote.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Chris McKeon » Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:40 pm

OK Come on Guys. These Posts regarding short Packing Ones Glider. Talk about being able to pack Ones Glider single Handly. Then Nothing. I mean how about where a Pilot ureses this concept to do a Selgf Retrieve from an xc flight. This deal really sounds cool. Good on You. I would love to see a follow up Post that showed this Short Pack system being used.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:32 pm

    Chris, tiny packed HGs of my awareness are not evident yet, so "use" stories are suggestive, not actual.
When a tiny-packed HG (5 feet or less, politely busable) exists, then descriptions of use would certainly be welcomed. No one yet in my awareness apparently has a tiny-packed HG for actual piloted hang gliding. Of course there are packs much longer than 5 ft that are used; the stories of their use are found outside of this topic, for the most part.

However, maybe we can count Woopy Jump


or Woopy Fly


Go without the engine:




:arrow: https://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/292 ... py-fly.htm
:arrow: https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/com ... er_seeing/
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sun Sep 10, 2023 7:53 pm

About 15 inches longer than the present topic's target maximum of 5 ft, but some things might be learned from review:

Assembling the Airfex / Funfex short packed to 1,90 m in 15 minutes
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Sep 10, 2023 9:53 pm

JoeF wrote:About 15 inches longer than the present topic's target maximum of 5 ft, but some things might be learned from review:


Have you considered writing to them about the common 5 foot limitation on Los Angeles busses to ask if they could come up with a shorter version for that market?
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:39 am

Not yet. However, I hope someone in their group is reading US Hawks forum and move to do something on their own initiative to face 5 ft or 4 ft or so. Also, I am making notes regarding mods to their wing Finsterwalder Funfex. I have personally some aversion to the pack volume where little-to-no telescoping is occurring; and I am aiming to have less empty weight than the stock Funfex. And there may be some win to forming the tote into two packs instead of one. The Funfex will occupy a continued folder in my explorations. I will momentarily send them a link to the topic here. Their site has an email: office@finsterwalder-charly.de

Just sent... with subject:
Some thought your team would be interested in the topic on tiny-packed hang gliders. Join the movement!

https://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... 16&p=33829

Best Regards,
Joe



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https://youtube.com/shorts/yxoX7Mi4I18?si=VoyCO3-k6ghgi90x
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:18 pm

Update on one potential solution HG to fit the topic's targets:
The most recent version of the Joe Sock telescopic assembling coupler is having a ripple effect on simplifying a particular design direction. The captive collar of the Joe Sock may well play a rigging role resulting in some possibly cool simplifications. In rough, my heart is exclaiming with anticipation:

"Look Ma, I'm flying this tiny-packed airframed conservative HG with no tangs, no bolts, no cable sleeves, no nuts, no washers, no swaging, no thimbles, no knots except the unknot, no pigtails, no lark's head knots, no tools, few holes, no duct tape, no adhesive taping! And I will have arrived at the flying site toting two polite packs containing the HG parts while using the city bus and walking for transportation."


We'll see soon as possible ....
:wave:
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby dhmartens » Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:13 pm

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... s-wing-inc
I was looking at the Willswing Falcon 3 195 shortpack as a starting point and making slight incremental changes by replacing some of the 7075 T6 aluminum tube with smaller diamerter 7075 T6 aluminum tube. This would barely change the charteristics of the glider. You could not even make it telescopic, only during short pack transportation, put a tube inside another tube.

https://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=23454
This post says if you use different tubing you may not be able to steer the glider.

"...hi guys im looking for 7075 t6 tubing ,i need to replace some parts in my hang glider to make it bit stronger im looking for 50x0.9mm and 52x0.9mm tubing any of either size will do i need at least 2 pieces 7' long anyone has any idea where i can get it ,i can even use old glider which has those dimension so if anyone has laying old glider home and want to sell it cheap please let me know thank you"...

..."A couple of things...

1. The bending characteristics of 7075 are VERY different from anything else. Swapping your 6061 for 7075 means you have traded your rating in for two titles: Designer and Test Pilot.

2. Unless the world has changed drastically, the 7075 is still a seamed tube, rather than extruded. The location of the seam relative to the stress line under load is critical and, if you get it wrong, bad things can happen.

2. Also unless the world has changed, chances are that there are no US-based distributors willing to sell 7075 for the purpose of building hang gliders. We used to have to buy our rib material in Europe and have it shipped in. (And the sailcloth from Japan, no less). You'll have have to buy from an HG manufacturer and they're going to be pretty curious about what you want to use it for."...
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:16 pm

:salute: :salute: Doug, you bring to the surface good points reminding that any design change might change the flight and safety characteristics of a particular hang glider. Important matters! :salute:
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