[JoeF]

An optional rigging scheme for a soft-line rigging line:
Have a spar. Have a rigging line with a loop terminating each end. Take one end of the line and wrap the spar twice and then run the other end of line through the loop. Snug the line against the spar. Later set the other end of the rigging line on kingpost post or queenpost post. Have the collar of a version of a Joe Sock prevent any sliding change of position of the rigging line's hold on the spar.

The "twice" provides a much better holding of the spar than if the loop was just singly holding the spar. Test distances in order specify exact lengths of the loops and macro rigging line; fulfill one's HG design.

RigLineLoopEachEnd.jpg (7.55 KiB) Viewed 793 times

Note: Rigging lines are to be well identified for positioning. A line is to be given a specific serial number. A logbook about the hang glider and its rigging lines would include the dates of initial making and use of each rigging line. The specific line and supplier would be noted. Care and caution notes would be available. The logbook is to be with notes that can help measure the amount of wear and UV exposure that has occurred for each rigging line. Notes about wear and testing are to be kept. Changeouts should occur when prudent.

After some prompts, Chat GPT 3.5 summarized a note:

Thank you for providing additional details about the specific setup involving the telescopic spar segments and the collared Joe Sock. It's crucial to have such stoppers in place to prevent the wraps of the rigging line from sliding towards the keel, as this can affect the stability and safety of the hang glider during flight.

Incorporating the collar of the Joe Sock as a stopper for the rigging lines is a practical solution to address this issue. Here's a revised step-by-step process considering this:

Prepare Your Rigging Lines:
Ensure you have the appropriate soft-line rigging lines, each with a loop at both ends, and that you have the correct lengths for the different positions on the hang glider.

Assembly of the Wing:
When assembling the hang glider wing and you reach a point where two telescopic spar segments join using a collared Joe Sock:

Create a Macro Secondary Loop:
Take the rigging line specified for that position.
Put one end of the rigging line through the loop of the other end to form a macro secondary loop, as mentioned earlier.

Double Loop the Spar and Use Collar as Stopper:
Double-loop the macro secondary loop over the spar. This means wrapping the line around the spar twice.
Use the collar of the Joe Sock as a stopper for the wraps of the rigging line to prevent them from sliding toward the keel. The collar should be positioned in such a way that it blocks any unwanted movement of the rigging line wraps.

Snug the Hold:
Make sure the double loop is snug and secure on the spar. Ensure that the stopper collar effectively prevents any sliding.

Route to Kingpost or Queenpost:
After securing the rigging line to the spar, route the other end of the rigging line to either the kingpost or queenpost on your hang glider.

Attach to Post:
Depending on whether you're using a kingpost or queenpost configuration, attach the end of the rigging line securely to the respective post.

By using the collar of the Joe Sock as a stopper, you add an extra layer of security to prevent any unwanted movement of the rigging line wraps, ensuring that your hang glider is properly rigged and safe for flight. Always perform a thorough pre-flight check to confirm that all rigging lines are correctly attached and secured before taking off.

[JoeF]

This note has a focus on a possible HG sail means that tiny packs sail sections neatly for tote. I required that no parts are attached to the edges of sail sections, not zippers, not Velcro, not keder cords, etc.: nada. I required that the sail sections be rolled onto a HG frame tubing without bulking at edges of rhe roll in order keep tote volume low and neat. The sail is to have no wrinkles or creases during tote as such increase volume.

Here is the result of a highly prompted chat with Chat GPT 3.5 on Sept. 16, 2023.

With the updated understanding, here's the revised description:

Snap-Based Temporary Joining:

Prepare the Sail Sections:

Near the edges of each sail section, create evenly spaced holes using a hole punch or a heated tool that seals the fabric as it punches.
Ensure that the holes are aligned correctly between the two sections to be joined.

Snap Strips:
Acquire snap strips, which are fabric strips with snap components attached.
Attach one side of the snap strips to the edge of one sail section, aligning the snap components with the holes created earlier.
Attach the other side of the snap strips to the edge of the other sail section, ensuring that they align precisely with the holes on the first section.

Assembly for Flight:
To join the sail sections for flight, simply press the sections together along the snap strips. The snaps will securely connect the sections.

Disassembly:
To disassemble the sail sections after the flight, unsnap the snap components from one another completely. These snap strips are fully separable parts and will not remain near the rolled sail sections.

Rolling and Tote:
With the holes and snap strips facilitating assembly and disassembly, you can roll each section neatly onto a hang glider frame tube without adding bulk.
Sleeve a snug bag over each roll for low-volume tote.

This revised process ensures that the snap strips are fully separable from the rolled sail sections during disassembly, allowing for a clean and compact storage solution. Thank you for the clarification, and I hope this aligns with your requirements.

Joe prompts:
Super! Thanks! We worked together as a team and came up with a neat solution that will be tried and tested for performance and safety.

ChatGPT
You're very welcome! I'm glad we could work together to come up with a solution that meets your needs. Testing and ensuring the performance and safety of your hang glider are crucial steps, and I wish you the best of luck with your project. If you ever have more questions or need further assistance in the future, don't hesitate to reach out. Safe flying! ===[end of response]
===============================================================
Now to work on holing to match snap strips or snap tapes or the like. Obtain the strips and then hole to match extant snap position! Precision task? The hole series are to match up with the series of snaps. Or, come to think about it, maybe just stack the two edges of sail and place the snaps; how long could that take! Ugh. This may be a challenge. Maybe 80 or more linear feat of snapping! Ugh! Daunting, doable, but who wants to do it? Since this is fresh, a go will be lived to explore this direction. Could a jig be used: quickly mount a sail edge onto the jig; place the other sail edge onto the jig; oh, the snap tape could be first mounted on a jig for stability; place the snap tape in the jig, place sail edge onto the snaps, place other sail edge on the snaps, place the other snap tape part on that stack, roll a roller to close the snaps... presto; repeat in sections until the macro sail is assembled. How long could that take? Time will tell.

Holing? Custom tooling? Say a hot holing rig that melts through 12 inch run of holes at once? Register progress with guide pins?
============================
This all makes me think of not having holes in the sail-section edges. And then having needle-like closing of two pressed parts in a long strip; I have not massaged this idea yet; later...

[dhmartens]

I am turning my attention to using the telescopic tubes to be used only for transport and reducing the size of the suitcase to be brought on busses by inserting 11 tubes into only 3 tubes. Six feet is only 5 feet when put in a box that is one foot wide. five fieet long yet one foot wide. Now we will sell only short pack hang gliders and they claim it takes 15 minutes to assemble them, but it take me 2 days because I am lazy so now we have a solution. The launch sites will have a robot that assembles your short pack so you dont have to. The prototype is named Moxie.

[JoeF]

https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/box-diagonal might give lengths boxes' long diagonals. Or ask Moxie to calculate the diagonals.
Bulk sense for polite bus riding is a concern. Fatter bigger box using diagonal to permit 72 inch would challenge the bulk factor. Aiming for less bulk and still stay within the length max of 5 ft or less is a target for some in the movement for tiny packing. Hang gliders on buses ... some challenges.

Bulkiness, high volume packs are aspects working against the targets some of us are keeping in focus. Two packs, three packs, four packs ... that might let a judicious tote arrangement are options. Wearing and carrying .... are part of the party.

===================================================================

Chat GPT 3.5 does not like my usage of "busing" as that usually is used in policy transportation matters. The AI program would prefer:

To focus on the hang glider and express that you take it on the bus with you, you can say:

"I bring my hang glider on the bus with me."

This sentence clearly conveys that you are taking the hang glider along with you when you ride the bus.

====================================================
Robot helper at site? Nice. Team member? Friends? Helpers? Fellow pilots?
====================================================
====================================================

[JoeF]

Developers of Tiny-Packed Hang Gliders (TPHG) are working diligently to reduce the volume of packed sails by carefully wrapping them to avoid creases. The compact packing of sails is especially important when traveling by bus or train, as minimizing bulk becomes a top priority. This reduction in bulk may necessitate specific changes in hang glider (HG) design. Choice of sail material may be changed in order to achieve goals.

One potential strategy to achieve reduced sail volume is through the judicious sectioning of the sail. This approach could prove beneficial in the overall effort to minimize the sail's volume. Additionally, considering the packed sail as the primary container for transportation purposes could be advantageous. Sails might even serve the dual purpose of forming two or three containers during transit.

It's important to note that achieving low-volume sail packing may require sacrificing some flight performance. The challenge lies in minimizing wrinkles and air bubbles in the sail, which can be a demanding task for both designers and users alike.

Once at home with the TPHG, one might unpack the sail to let it breathe, dry, be cleaned, be repaired. Store the sail out of sun's light and in a clean environment.

One might explore airfoil stuffers for playing roles as cores for rolling sail sections. Judicious stuffers might allow core space for telescopic spar and rib or strut parts. A cylindrical inflatable might play such a role.

===================== One sample effort:
To create a pack for a Tiny-Packed Hang Glider (TPHG), employ a set of 5-foot long tubes, ensuring that none of them extend beyond this limit to maintain compactness. Strategically position these as the long edges of a box-like packing structure. This arrangement utilizes judicious spacers to hold the four tubes in place, forming a skeleton that defines the outer shape of the pack, sans the sail rolling.

The resulting skeleton of tubes should be configured so that the cross-section of the box-like packing does not exceed the dimensions of a rectangle measuring 12 inches by 6 inches. This compact design ensures that the hang glider sail sections can be rolled tightly on the outside of the tube skeleton and efficiently packed within this space.

Tube Configuration: Place the 5-foot long tubes as the long edges of the pack, avoiding any telescoping extensions beyond this length.

Spacer Arrangement: Employ judicious spacers to secure and maintain the position of these tubes, forming a box-like skeleton within the pack.

Compact Cross-Section: Ensure that the cross-sectional dimensions of the box-like packing structure do not exceed a rectangle of 12 inches by 6 inches, allowing for efficient and compact storage of the TPHG.

Benefits of this adjusted design approach:

Efficient Utilization of Space: The design maximizes the efficient use of space within the pack, keeping the hang glider components tightly organized.

Compactness: The resulting pack remains within the specified 5-foot length limit and maintains a compact cross-section, meeting storage requirements.

Protection: The tube skeleton provides structural support, minimizing the risk of creases or damage to the sail sections during packing and transportation.

Ease of Handling: The assembly and disassembly process remains straightforward, ensuring convenience when preparing for flight and storage.

==================
==================
I asked AI Chat GPT-3.5 to look over my above draft for the post and clean it up some. The following is the Chat GPT 3.5 response:

Your near-final draft is well-structured and clearly conveys the design approach for packing a Tiny-Packed Hang Glider (TPHG). Here are some minor adjustments for clarity and conciseness:

To create a pack for a Tiny-Packed Hang Glider (TPHG), utilize a set of 5-foot long tubes, ensuring none exceed this limit for compactness. Position them strategically as the long edges of a box-like packing structure. Employ judicious spacers to secure these tubes, forming a skeleton that defines the pack's outer shape, excluding the sail rolling.

Configure the resulting tube skeleton so that the cross-section of the box-like packing does not exceed 12 inches by 6 inches. This design allows the hang glider sail sections to be tightly rolled on the outside of the tube skeleton, ensuring efficient packing.

Tube Configuration: Place the 5-foot long tubes as the long edges of the pack, avoiding any extensions beyond this length.

Spacer Arrangement: Use judicious spacers to secure and maintain the tube position, forming a box-like skeleton within the pack.

Compact Cross-Section: Ensure the cross-sectional dimensions of the box-like packing structure do not exceed 12 inches by 6 inches, facilitating efficient and compact TPHG storage.

Benefits of this Adjusted Design Approach:

Efficient Space Utilization: Maximize space efficiency within the pack, keeping hang glider components well-organized.

Compactness: The resulting pack remains within the specified 5-foot length limit and maintains a compact cross-section, meeting storage requirements.

Sail Protection: The tube skeleton offers structural support, minimizing the risk of creases or damage to the sail sections during packing and transportation.

Ease of Use: Assembly and disassembly processes remain straightforward, ensuring convenience when preparing for flight and storage.

These adjustments maintain the clarity of your original text while enhancing conciseness. Your instructions are now even more straightforward and easy to follow

Cross section of 6"x12" or less ...

6x12orlessby60inches.jpg (17.11 KiB) Viewed 692 times

[JoeF]

After flying a Tiny-Packed Hang Glider (TPHG) at a site, consider the following method for packing the sail sections onto a core:

Utilize the environment; if possible, find a tree, post, lifeguard stand, rock, shrub, ... Set up an axle line that passes through the spar pack (refer to the prior post). Anchor one end of the axle line to a remote point, approximately 6 feet high. Then, route the axle line through the spar pack to another remote anchor using an appropriate method. The load of the pack will form a dip in the axle line; maybe get the working height at waist height.

Tension the axle line to support the spar pack and allow it to be rotated by the pilot. Position the sail sections essentially perpendicular to the projection of the axle. Begin rolling the sail sections onto the core by securely anchoring the start of the roll to the core. Remove sand and debris as you roll.

The pilot turns the core to roll more sail material, ensuring air bubbles are smoothed out, and dust and debris are cleared from the sail. Continue rolling while maintaining some tension on the sail using suitable means. One may use hook-and-loop straps to secure the rolled sail sections. Repeat this process for each section, adjusting the number of wraps as needed depending on sail design and section sizes. Target: low tote volume with low crease count.

RaisedCoreRollingSailSections01.jpg (13 KiB) Viewed 683 times

A helper might up up far end of sail sections, help shake debris, and provide steady tension on the sail while the pilot or someone turns the core while also smoothing the wrapping material.

Other mean to reah target may be found.

[dhmartens]

Took the robot to a launch site with a short packed falcon 195 and here is the conversation:
Doug: well set up the glider for me.

Robot: Get you lazy a** up and do it your self besides you are getting fat you need the exercise.

Doug: You sound like my ex girl friend.

Robot: Which one? you have had twelve.

Doug: (OK I am going to change the subject) Is the short pack any more dangerous than a regular hang glider?

Robot: Yes, the girl friend you lived with in Iowa could sue you for divorce in a common law marriage state and take half your hang glider in a divorce settlement even though you were not officially married, half the leading edge, half the keel, and half the cross bar, and your sail. Plus since you have expressed interest in manufacturing a telescopic hang gliger it is unlikely you will be able to purchase spare parts.

[JoeF]

Fun; and some keen points, Dough! Thanks.
===============================================
Your: "Doug: ... Is the short pack any more dangerous than a regular hang glider?"
Explore that topic, but for this theme, "short" will be considered 6 ft or longer, but not full up. Is the tiny pack ( 5ft or less_) any more dangerous than a regular hang glider?

First, have a "regular hang glider" all up and flight checked; pack without shortening. Such circumstance seems to have less failure modes than packing down to a short or a tiny pack. Maybe less parts to lose, fewer parts to forget to join, inappropriate joining avoided. Fewer parts left at home by neglect. Exploring these kinds of matters may help fine tune tiny packing.

Second, let's look for some positives in the tiny-packing arena. Seeing and inspecting all parts might be easier; finding wear might be easier. Reverence for each part might bring some blessings. Maybe the sail could be without creases or low count thereof in a tiny packing; opening the sail sections for breathing and inspection as a habit at home might be a positive thing.

All sides to this matter might be carefully explored as the tiny-pack HG movement marches forward.

[dhmartens]

First of all if you are going to get married do not bring up a prenup as it is unromantic and you will be classified as a Cad or a Putz.
according to Cnbc bring up "Estate Planning" this is something rich people do to get richer, however it has the same effect as sheilding assets from your spouse in case of divorce, but it will make them feel romantic and marry you.
https://www.cnbc.com/select/financial-t ... -marriage/

Second: There is nothing that says a 5 foot hang glider can get on a bus in los angeles so the whole premise of this thread is false. A 40 inch suitcase is more likely.
https://www.metro.net/riding/guide/what ... ing-board/

Strollers
Strollers are welcome on Metro bus and rail. On rail, look for the decal on the outside of the car denoting the designated space for passengers with strollers. Note that there may not always be room on board to accommodate a stroller. Riders should always give priority seating to seniors and persons with disabilities. Learn more about riding Metro with children.

Luggage and other large items
Luggage and other large items have a designated space on Metro Rail. The space is usually located at the end of rail cards and is marked with a yellow decal.

Mobility Devices
Metro buses can accommodate all types of wheelchairs, including three-wheel scooter-chairs, power chairs and small four-wheel chairs. The general requirement is that the mobility device must fit on the ramp and be able to maneuver to the wheelchair securement area.

All Metro Rail lines are accessible to persons in wheelchairs. Every station has either a walkway/ramp or elevator from the street to the platform. In the event of an elevator outage at your station, you may take a bus to the next station for free.

Learn more about Metro Accessibility for riders with disabilities.

Bikes
Bikes can always be brought onto Metro buses and train if space is available. Tandem, 3-wheeled or fuel powered bikes are not allowed. Learn more about bringing your bike on Metro.

Food/Drinks/Smoking
There is no eating or drinking allowed on platforms, trains and buses. Smoking is not allowed within 20 feet of any Metro facility entrance, exit or operable window.

Pets
Pets and emotional support, therapy, comfort, and companion animals are welcome aboard Metro when they:

Are secured in enclosed carriers and do not block the aisle or a doorway
Do not deprive a customer of a seat
Do not interfere with the comfort or convenience of other customers

[JoeF]

Good continued look at matters, Doug. Thanks. Good synergistic progress
============================================
5-ft packed (or less length) ... so configured to be polite, safe, non-threatening, handy ... so that one is not rejected by bus drivers. Luggage, musical-instrument containers, backpacks, front packs, grocery bags, store purchases, etc. are regularly brought on the bus in Los Angeles. High collapsed wheeled carts that help people shop are regularly brought on the bus. When luggage is bulky, then I have observed adjustments that I want to avoid. The City wants people to go to stores and purchase things; the City gets some tax funds when purchases are made.

Almost every passenger is observed carrying something on the bus. Offensive packs often get on the bus. Fishing poles over 5 ft, surf boards over 5 ft are frequently brought on the bus. From extensive observation I come upon a gentle appearing 5 ft packing that is wielded horizontally sometimes and vertically sometimes could end up not disturbing others, not taking up an additional seat, able to be hugged while standing in various places; When using a seat, the pack can variously be placed between one's knee and abutting on the floor and going up in front of one's face while not taking up a second seat in the two adjacent seat configuration. Standing and hugging the pack against a holding pole almost has the pack disappear from view; the pack goes to my neck bottom and I smile from neck up. I am not wanting to get some special phrasing about "hang glider" onboard; rather staying with packages, luggage, mobility devices, bike openings, the pack or two packs handled well, colored cleanly, smile logo, soft appearing, etc. A bus stuffed with people at peak hours are more challenging than at off-peak hours. The Metro Rail trains are much less challenging for large items. But, a 6 inch by 12 inch by 60 inches cleanly colored with soft rounding corners might be a near maximum; I am aiming for 4 in by 10 inch by 60 inch for a soon-to-be exploration. Following some success will be some reductions in pack size. Then the future by me and others in the movement may well find some smaller packings.

The 5 ft explorations will occur. The 4-ft deal will be explored. The One-Meter HG pack(s) will be explored.

The double-purpose "stroller"-appearing solution is up for someone to perfect Folded up a HG might be camouflaged as a stroller.

Also, side diagonals to handles of a wheelchair might be played at 5 ft. Ride a wheelchair where all the parts on the wheelchair are parts of the HG, might be a challenge for someone in the 5-ft-or-less HG movement.

Careful astute placement of HG telescopic spars into a bicycle format could have such bicycle mounted in the bus bike rack in front of the City's buses. The pilot could carry the sail and other gear inside the bus. Some in the movement may perfect solutions in the bicycle arena.

Two- or three- or four-packing the HG lets creative solutions to appear. Perhaps clean open telescopic pole sets could be made to appear as fishing poles or curtain rodding. Labels and photographs and smiley appliques! Then sail packed separately. Line sets separately. Short strut sets? Etc.
rWalkers of four beams and horizontal supports may be high or low for matching the tallness of users. Picture some extension of a walker that go to the 5-ft level. Picture the sides spaces of the walker or front face rectangular face filled with nearly wrapped sail. Have all the beams of the walker become HG spars and struts, as needed. Picture the two wheels of some walkers playing as wheels for travois trek tote of the HG set of parts. Some in the 5-ft-or-less packed HG movement might perfect "the walker camouflage HG deal".

The stiff-legged-person deal? Have the telescopic spars under clothing and strapped to one's torso and thigh; the 60 inches go to the top of the shoulder. One might appear as stiff on one side of the body. Have sail rolled in shorter pack. Have line sets and possible struts two-parted and shorter-pack for chest packing. Some builders-designers may go this route.

Some bus routes permit TAP card users to enter a rear door away from close scrutiny of the bus driver. Waiting for the bus, a pack can be set visually to be non-ostentatious relative to the bus driver approaching. Then enter the rear door and handle things neatly.

Bike racks on front of buses: https://youtube.com/shorts/9I7w7l3JHk4?si=zLsQ-ZJy9233mUQm

Greyhound Bus is not the ordinary City Bus of focus. But Greyhound "bulky bag" measures L+W+H =95 inch max. E.g., the HG pack described above as one option max effort for one in the movement: 6+12+60=78 inch. https://www.greyhound.com/travel-info/baggage One bulky bag is free, second is not. Stay under 50 lbs. Studying Greyhound policies might be a good exercise. But City buses do not follow or force Greyhound Bus policies. Still, the study might help the HG tiny-pack movement. Note: Such bus carriers in US (again, not city buses) have challenging rule for stowed bag: 50 lb limit and L+W+H=62 inches for the one free stowed bag; this would stree a HG 5-ft deal, but not so stress a 50 inch+ 8 inch + 4 in =62 inch pack; such could be for telescopic spars and two-part rib-struts; then carry-on smaller approved pack and maybe wear the sail, etc. There is more leniency on local City buses than on long-distance carriers.

Regarding carrier buses, one site has this: " Sports equipment
Whether it’s your basketball or your baseball gear, it belongs in the bus’ lower compartment, together with the other check-in baggage. We don’t know the exact reason but have to agree that balls or sticks aren’t needed in the bus!"

The big teddy bear or doll camouflage?