US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

Posted: **Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:58 pm**

Hawks,

I'v been trying to keep up with what's going on, somewhat difficult to understand with the snippets from the twitter reports. Hopefully the agenda topics will be discussed further so we will know what went on and what's new.

Anyone reading this forum, please comment/discuss the issues here.

I see Lisa will no longer be in her present position :cry:

, but she is a candidate for the ED job :eh:

. And I sincerely hope all You pilots from the upper Left Coast don't hate me, but I hope she is totally out of there... :arrow:

EXIT. It seems obvious that she has been using that position to promote her flying site, King Mt., and the NW regions, even to the detriment of other quality flying areas/locations. If I lived out there I'd feel bad, with her as meet director,RD, Pres. Her local Chamber of Commerce must really love her. But ,good for the sport in the long run?

Yes, there are more pilots out there. Yes, there are more flying sites out there. Yes, there are more instructors out there. More of everything but US/WorldRecords. IF there is still a goal to increase the membership, where should the focus be? I have had enough production jobs in my days to know that you don't fix what is already working. Look for the weak areas and shore up what needs fixing there. And yes, I am talking about SW Texas.

As all should know, we have had our share of fatalities in Reg11 this year. Inexperienced pilots, with no instructors at the time of accidents. I do not feel it reflects on the past, <10yr, or present Reg. Directors. Again, it is well known how David Glover and Lisa have gone head to head. Glover has done more than anyone, ever, to recognize/promote this area as a premier soaring location.

There seems to be a trending up interest in HG/PG in Reg11 new pilots, all the more reason why we need help from UShPA/FFF.

Thanks,
Sam
SW Texas Hang Gliders

Posted: **Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:37 pm**

SamKellner wrote:I see Lisa will no longer be in her present position , but she is a candidate for the ED job . And I sincerely hope all You pilots from the upper Left Coast don't hate me, but I hope she is totally out of there... EXIT.

Lisa Tate showed her stripes very clearly when she refused to allow my motion for the Accountability Amendment (an open voting amendment for the Board of Directors) last spring. I made the motion and one of the other Directors even offered a "second", but Lisa cut in and said the Board would NOT discuss it. She just killed it right there and no one else objected. I don't even think she had the authority to do that, but she did it anyway and not another Director on the board spoke out. So I won't be sorry to see her go. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see her be rewarded with the ED job either. That would be adding insult to injury ... so I suppose that's what's bound to happen. :roll:

One more thing about my experience with Lisa Tate (I've got a long list). She claimed to be David Beardslee's good friend, but when David Jebb kicked Beardslee out of Torrey (and his livelihood ... for life!), Lisa didn't lift a finger to help. David Beardslee was a USHPA member, and given that Jebb was his Director, it would have been easy to see the conflict of interest. Beardslee couldn't go to Jebb, and Brad Hall was also Jebb's puppet. So Dave had no one to support his case. In fact, Jebb wouldn't even give Beardslee a written reason for the lifetime ban - despite requests. So Lisa could have simply asked Jebb to provide Beardslee with a reason. How hard was that? Since Jebb knew he didn't have a reason, Lisa's asking for one might have caused him to reverse the ban. But Lisa didn't stand up for a USHPA member (and her "good friend"). That also told me a lot about Lisa Tate.

Posted: **Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:08 am**

Hawks,

So the EC= Hass pres, Wills vp, Bolosky sec, Forbes tres. Right, shuffle the chairs. How is ED chosen?

Posted: **Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:54 am**

SamKellner wrote:So the EC= Hass pres, Wills vp, Bolosky sec, Forbes tres. Right, shuffle the chairs.

Hmmm....

Rich Hass as President - I've had hope with Rich and been disappointed several times. But it's possible he was acting under Lisa's thumb and wasn't free to do what he believed was right. So I'll reserve any judgement until I see what he actually does. The Torrey Hawks resolution will be a good benchmark. Last spring, the Board passed a resolution to add a new representative to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. But for 6 months nothing was done by the USHPA representative. I suspect that was due to some "behind the scenes" pressure from the EC (primarily Lisa). If Rich directs Ken Baier to actually follow through with the spring resolution, and if Rich actually contacts the other club's Presidents seeking their support, then that will tell me a lot. If he doesn't, then that will tell me a lot as well. Of course, it's possible that the Board reversed that decision during the Bend meeting since I haven't seen all their actions at this point.

Dave Wills as VP is a disaster. Dave was the Organization and Bylaws Chairman and he pushed through all kinds of SOPs/Bylaws that limited the membership's rights. For example, members used to be able to record and even video tape all of the Board meetings and Committee meetings. Dave Wills passed an action barring anyone from recording any of those meetings any more. He also killed the Accountability Amendment in the Organization and Bylaws Committee. That amendment would have made it easier for USHPA members to know how their own Directors were voting. I followed all proper procedure to get that amendment on the agenda and reviewed by the Organization and Bylaws Committee, but Dave Wills just refused to allow it to be discussed in his Committee and he also refused to pass it along to the Board for their vote. I've got a long list of Dave's misdeeds, and his position on the EC doesn't speak well of the direction for USHPA.

Bill Bolosky is someone I don't really know, and I can't recall anything one way or the other at this point.

Mark Forbes is also a disaster ... but I'd have to start a new topic to fill you in on him. :srofl:

So overall, I think it mostly depends on Rich Hass. If he stands up for what's right, then he could turn USHPA around. I'll be interested to see what he does about the Accountability Amendment and support for the Torrey Hawks. Those are two obvious and easy things he could fix with very little effort. In fact, they're both entirely under his control since he can tell Ken Baier what to do at the Soaring Council. He can write letters to the other Council Presidents asking for their support to balance the Council. And as President, I believe he could hold a roll call vote of the USHPA board whenever one was requested by any Director (exactly what my Accountability Amendment suggested). So let's keep our eyes on Rich Hass to see what kind of USHPA we're going to have in 2011.

SamKellner wrote:How is ED chosen?

I think the President/EC will do that either directly or with approval from the Board. If they give Lisa Tate her "golden parachute" via the Executive Director position, then that will also tell us what kind of USHPA we're going to have in 2011.

Posted: **Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:35 pm**

I'm sorry, but I have to call Mark Forbes on "bending the truth" here ...

On the Oz Report forum, Angelo posted the following comment:

Angelo wrote:Secret vote? What kind of B.S. is this? We elect regional directors to represent us, they have absolutely no right to hide their votes from us, the members that put them there.

Angelo is absolutely correct. Yet in a long-winded post Mark Forbes tried to dodge and obfuscate that obvious reality:

On Oct 25 2010, in a post titled: No secrets in the voting, Mark Forbes wrote:
There wasn't any secrecy at all about it, so I don't know what the problem is. The competition committee was an open session, members were welcome to attend and some did. The vote was taken by a show of hands, and unless some voting member specifically requests a roll-call vote, there's no record made of who voted which way. That's standard practice in any meeting. For most decisions, it's a voice vote. "All in favor say Aye." AYE! "All opposed?" Sometimes there's a few "Nay" votes, but if there's enough to make the decision at all questionable, a show of hands is taken and a count is made.

I wasn't at the comp committee meeting; I was next door at Organization and Bylaws, since there was plenty of participation at competition and somebody needed to keep Dave Wills company as we went through the SOP language and editing changes. For a small (3 people) meeting like that one, we don't even take votes. We operate by consensus since it's silly to move, second, discuss and vote when it's just a few of us. That sort of process is needed when you have more people involved and need to organize them.

None of the committee actions become official until they're ratified by the full board in general session. The competition committee report, including all of its final recommendations, was approved by voice vote in general session, as I recall without dissent. Until that point, it's all discussion and recommendations, and subject to change by the general session.

The only time we take a roll call vote with recorded names is when we're voting on something like an amendment to the Bylaws, which requires a 2/3 majority (17 affirmative votes) to pass, or when a director specifically requests it. At this meeting, we had one item which related to the Foundation, and it failed to pass by 11-4 with 4 abstentions. I asked Rich to note in the minutes that two of those abstentions were Riss Estes and myself, since both of us are Foundation trustees. I wanted the record to show that we had refrained from voting on this item because of potential conflict of interest. The votes of the other directors were not recorded by name.

If a director wants to have the secretary note how they voted, they're free to ask the secretary to add that to the minutes. This might be the case if you're voting on something of vital interest to pilots in your region, for which you may have reasons to want a permanent record.

Folks should understand that proposals may come up that are a lousy idea, but we'll still give them a hearing and consideration. Just because it's on the agenda and discussed doesn't mean it's a good idea, or going to become policy. I thought this "code of conduct" thing was total overkill, and would only be appropriate to even consider doing if we were providing substantial financial support to the world team. And by "substantial", I mean funding a team of full-time athletes to train for a year or so. If we're doing that, then we can tell them how to behave, because they're living on our nickel. Absent that, we have no business telling them who they can talk to or what time they have to go to bed. The chance of USHPA reallocating its resources to do that is zero…so it's not really an issue. If it had survived to general session I would have argued against it and voted that way, but it never made it out of committee, which is what I figured would happen.

If you're wondering how your regional director voted on something, ask 'em. We all have email addresses and phone numbers.

The only "secret" ballots at this meeting were the elections for a region 8 director replacement (Mike Holmes, taking over for the late Jeff Nicolay) and the elections for directors-at-large and officers. Those are required to be written ballots, even when we only have a single candidate for the position. So we went through the motions, even though only one of the positions on the EC was contested.

New officers for 2011: Rich Hass, president; Dave Wills, vice president; Bill Bolosky, secretary; Mark Forbes, treasurer.

MGF

There are lots of twisted facts in that statement, but here's the one where Mark Forbes crossed the line. Mark Forbes wrote:

"The vote was taken by a show of hands, and unless some voting member specifically requests a roll-call vote, there's no record made of who voted which way. That's standard practice in any meeting." - Mark Forbes

That's absolutely misleading. I know because I've requested roll call votes and they were denied one after another. Whenever Lisa Tate called for a secret ballot she didn't ask permission. She just declared it to be a secret ballot and refused any objections. I was there and I saw it myself, so don't let Mark Forbes say it didn't happen. The fact that he would portray USHPA's voting as he did in this statement tells us a lot more about Mark Forbes' honesty (or dishonesty) than it does about USHPA's voting practices.

Here's the "Accountability Amendment" that I proposed in the Fall 2009 and Spring 2010 board meetings:

In a message to Dave Wills on September 4, 2009, Bob Kuczewski wrote:[Article VIII, Section 13.] Conduct of Meetings:

All meetings (including Board of Director Meetings, Committee Meetings, General Membership Meetings, and others) shall be governed by Robert's Rules of Order, Revised unless otherwise provided for in these By-Laws or listed specifically below:

(a) In accordance with one of the practices discussed in Robert's Rules of Order Revised, a Roll Call vote (Yeas and Nays) shall be taken if requested by any Director. The names and votes of all Directors during any such Roll Call vote shall be included in the minutes of the meeting for distribution to the general membership.

Mark Forbes knows all about that proposed amendment, and he never supported it. He allowed it to be killed in the Fall 2009 Board meeting and he sat there next to Lisa Tate as she flat out refused to even allow discussion after it had been seconded in the Spring 2010 Board meeting. Mark makes it sound like any Director can get a roll call vote on request, and yet he knows that's not true.

Mark goes on to say that we can find out how our Directors have voted by just asking. That's also false. There's no obligation for a Director to tell how they voted, and there's nothing to keep them from lying if they did tell. Furthermore, we shouldn't have to individually "beg" our Directors to tell us how they voted. And we shouldn't have to trust that they'll tell us the truth. The votes should be recorded in the meeting and published for all the members to see (as they are with Congress). That's what Mark Forbes, Lisa Tate, Brad Hall, Dave Wills, and all their cronies have resisted for years. That's disgusting, and Angelo has every right to be outraged.

P.S. I hope someone will cross-post this to the Oz Report so Mark Forbes won't think he's getting away with his spin doctoring of the truth. And please post a link to this US Hawks topic where everyone is free to speak their minds. :thumbup:

Posted: **Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:18 pm**

From the Oz Report http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21781&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=33

What some here (including the USHPA Treasurer) seem not to be aware of is that the USHPA has decided on a much different approach to their office and their Executive Director. They feel that they need someone who is dedicated to the sport. They are interviewing Lisa Tate (past USHPA President) for the job after all, as well as someone else who is currently like Lisa serving on the USHPA BOD.

Unbelievable. So it looks like Lisa Tate is in line to get her "golden parachute" for having "served" the USHPA members so well. Lisa Tate's legacy should be her use of Secret Ballots, and her refusal to even recognize that the Accountability Amendment was both motioned and seconded in the Spring 2010 Board meeting. She killed it, and we still don't know how our own Directors are voting. Disgusting. And that happened right there in Salt Lake City - in close proximity to one of our major flying sites - and she still got away with it. So moving USHPA to a more populated area won't help if pilots don't bother to keep track of what the Board is doing in their name.

Posted: **Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:33 pm**

Bob,

I would sure have posted that to Oz forum if I knew how. :oops:

Tate's legacy: Strategic Plan accomplishments.... score: -5 :srofl:

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:19 am**

Bob Kuczewski wrote:I'm sorry, but I have to call Mark Forbes on "bending the truth" here ...

Notice how diplomatic I was back in 2010 with euphemisms like "bending the truth".

Bob Kuczewski wrote:On the Oz Report forum, Angelo posted the following comment:

Angelo wrote:Secret vote? What kind of B.S. is this? We elect regional directors to represent us, they have absolutely no right to hide their votes from us, the members that put them there.

Angelo is absolutely correct. Yet in a long-winded post Mark Forbes tried to dodge and obfuscate that obvious reality:

On Oct 25 2010, in a post titled: No secrets in the voting, Mark Forbes wrote:
There wasn't any secrecy at all about it, so I don't know what the problem is.

  :

The vote was taken by a show of hands, and unless some voting member specifically requests a roll-call vote, there's no record made of who voted which way. That's standard practice in any meeting.

  :

If you're wondering how your regional director voted on something, ask 'em. We all have email addresses and phone numbers.

  :

MGF

There are lots of twisted facts in that statement, but here's the one where Mark Forbes crossed the line. Mark Forbes wrote:

"The vote was taken by a show of hands, and unless some voting member specifically requests a roll-call vote, there's no record made of who voted which way. That's standard practice in any meeting." - Mark Forbes

That's absolutely misleading. I know because I've requested roll call votes and they were denied one after another. Whenever Lisa Tate called for a secret ballot she didn't ask permission. She just declared it to be a secret ballot and refused any objections. I was there and I saw it myself, so don't let Mark Forbes say it didn't happen. The fact that he would portray USHPA's voting as he did in this statement tells us a lot more about Mark Forbes' honesty (or dishonesty) than it does about USHPA's voting practices.

Here's the "Accountability Amendment" that I proposed in the Fall 2009 and Spring 2010 board meetings:

In a message to Dave Wills on September 4, 2009, Bob Kuczewski wrote:[Article VIII, Section 13.] Conduct of Meetings:

All meetings (including Board of Director Meetings, Committee Meetings, General Membership Meetings, and others) shall be governed by Robert's Rules of Order, Revised unless otherwise provided for in these By-Laws or listed specifically below:

(a) In accordance with one of the practices discussed in Robert's Rules of Order Revised, a Roll Call vote (Yeas and Nays) shall be taken if requested by any Director. The names and votes of all Directors during any such Roll Call vote shall be included in the minutes of the meeting for distribution to the general membership.

Mark Forbes knows all about that proposed amendment, and he never supported it. He allowed it to be killed in the Fall 2009 Board meeting and he sat there next to Lisa Tate as she flat out refused to even allow discussion after it had been seconded in the Spring 2010 Board meeting. Mark makes it sound like any Director can get a roll call vote on request, and yet he knows that's not true.

Mark goes on to say that we can find out how our Directors have voted by just asking. That's also false. There's no obligation for a Director to tell how they voted, and there's nothing to keep them from lying if they did tell. Furthermore, we shouldn't have to individually "beg" our Directors to tell us how they voted. And we shouldn't have to trust that they'll tell us the truth. The votes should be recorded in the meeting and published for all the members to see (as they are with Congress). That's what Mark Forbes, Lisa Tate, Brad Hall, Dave Wills, and all their cronies have resisted for years. That's disgusting, and Angelo has every right to be outraged.

P.S. I hope someone will cross-post this to the Oz Report so Mark Forbes won't think he's getting away with his spin doctoring of the truth. And please post a link to this US Hawks topic where everyone is free to speak their minds.

USHPA has been run by liars for at least 10 years running. As I look back I can see the USHPA "presidents" being swapped out like sock puppets on the hands of the puppet masters: Mark Forbes and Tim Herr. They have been the two constants of corruption while the figureheads act as a diversion.

The large number of Directors has always been a bit of a "wild card" at the Herr/Forbes poker table. It was hard for Herr and Forbes to keep track of all the Directors coast to coast. There was always a chance that a true reform Director might get elected and propose openness and transparency (as I did). Now with the smaller Board it will be much easier for Herr/Forbes to weed out the "trouble makers".

Mark Forbes lost his election and the stupid Board kept him on as a "Director at Large" because they were all too lazy to dig into the insurance issues. Now Forbes and Herr will be kicking most of them out with the new governance structure. Poetic justice.

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:47 am**

It's been almost 14 years since this topic was started, and it's been over 5 years since the last post.

The history kept alive here at the U.S. Hawks gives us an opportunity to look back and see where mistakes were made. Lisa Tate could have greatly helped the sport of hang gliding by doing two simple things:

1. Allowing a vote on the Accountability Amendment
2. Ensuring that hang gliding was properly represented on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council

The first would have created a more open and accountable USHPA Board, and the second would have helped provide better oversight at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. Together, these might have prevented the Shannon Hamby accident at Torrey which was a factor in USHPA losing their insurance and their building.

Back on October 23, 2010, I wrote:

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Rich Hass as President - I've had hope with Rich and been disappointed several times. But it's possible he was acting under Lisa's thumb and wasn't free to do what he believed was right. So I'll reserve any judgement until I see what he actually does. The Torrey Hawks resolution will be a good benchmark. Last spring, the Board passed a resolution to add a new representative to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. But for 6 months nothing was done by the USHPA representative. I suspect that was due to some "behind the scenes" pressure from the EC (primarily Lisa). If Rich directs Ken Baier to actually follow through with the spring resolution, and if Rich actually contacts the other club's Presidents seeking their support, then that will tell me a lot. If he doesn't, then that will tell me a lot as well.

Rich Hass never directed Ken Baier to follow through with the USHPA's Spring 2010 resolution to balance the Soaring Council ... and the rest is history.

US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

Fall BOD meeting ... 2010

Fall BOD meeting ... 2010

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting

Re: Fall BOD meeting ... 2010