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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Chris McKeon » Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:21 pm

Well, I have been Mulling over this Short Pack Concept. If I could Break down the Predator into a more Manageable Size. I would Be More Willing to take an XC Route that if I were to sink out. I would be more likely to take an Route that would Leave Me Father away From a road. In the Past the Furthest that I have laundered oh about One and a Half, or Maybe Two Miles from a road. I was able to throw My Predator onto My Shoulder and hike it. It has been so Cool that when a Cloud Street said to Me; Go this way. and the conservative Route said had My mind say Go this way. I tended to say to Myself; " Damn the Torpedoes" I am going to Fly over this Stretch of No Man's Land. Inverta\bly by hook or by Crook. somehow I tended to get up when I needed to get up. Even loaded with My Body weight being as high as 298 Lbs. The Predator has such a tremendous ability to use light lift. So thanks Guys for doing what You have been doing, I appreciate what You Have/Are Doing. Maybe when I get to be an avid XC Pilot again I might benefit from Your in My opinion anyways, I applaud Your; "GOOD WORK".

When I think that I am on My Way to Flying My Predator again. Just thinking about Flying My Predator Cause Me to Smile. PREDATOR, What a Glider! John thank You for Designing such an Awesome Glider.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby ARP » Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:47 pm

JoeF wrote:Wing stuffers' positions may be set by a string to the leading edge (LE) in some HGs. Also, consider having the position-keeping string be continued to the (TE) trailing edge or nearly so. Between flights a stuffer could be pulled forward or rearward. Results are invited to be described by anyone. Wing stuffers may be designed to fit special purposes.
StufferInSock004controlledposition.jpg

Variable camber ...


For a single surface wing a simple bow line from leading edge of the aerofoil batten to a point approx a third along its length could be used and tensioned to form the aerofoil arc. Line length and attachment point are variable to change to the desired profile.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Chris McKeon » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:08 pm

I have been watching this Thread and it seems to where the Primary reasons for being able to short-Pack One's Glider so as to get the Glider back up a slope on the Beach. Or to be able to take Your Glider. I have Question isn't there anyone Who like Me have interest in being able to make their Glider More Manageable when One needs to move Their Glider across not so much an environment that to move Their Glider.

OK Look; I am can take a Hint. THe lack of response to My Posts, except the comments about How Somehow when a Pilot launches from a flying Site. Then they decide to head Off on an Cross Country Route on A given Day while another Pilot decides to stay Flying the Site\. That Somehow the Air that the Pilot who stayed Flying around the LOcal site. Well That Air is safer Air than the Air that the other Pilot who Flew off on an XC Route. For the Air that was being flown would be more dangerous than the O2 over launch.

Look I am not Brain Dead. While it is' true that i did pound and i sheered Brain Axons. Well then when I pounded was Local site O-2. The way I understand when a Flight becomes a Cross Country Flight is when One Must use Lift to get High enough to complete the Route. That Was not the case with Me that Day. I could have Quite easily gotten to where I pounded on Glide.

But it is obvious that No One here either Does, or wants to do, hear about, or discuss the Flying Subjects that I bring up.

Well the Day when I will actually have some Video of My Flying. I believe I will wait till that Day before I Put up another Post. Make No Doubt, I am definitely on the Comeback Trail. For there is no Question that this Phoenix Pilot will Fly again.

Well until then, Good By: Chris.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby ARP » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:15 am

ARP wrote:
JoeF wrote:Wing stuffers' positions may be set by a string to the leading edge (LE) in some HGs. Also, consider having the position-keeping string be continued to the (TE) trailing edge or nearly so. Between flights a stuffer could be pulled forward or rearward. Results are invited to be described by anyone. Wing stuffers may be designed to fit special purposes.
StufferInSock004controlledposition.jpg

Variable camber ...


For a single surface wing a simple bow line from leading edge of the aerofoil batten to a point approx a third along its length could be used and tensioned to form the aerofoil arc. Line length and attachment point are variable to change to the desired profile.
One of the issues of making a glider easier to fold is the pre-set battens have to be removed from the sail to allow folding with a c.f. flexible batten they could be left in the sail and the bow line then tensioned to form the aerofoil radius.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:48 pm

ARP wrote:For a single surface wing a simple bow line from leading edge of the aerofoil batten to a point approx a third along its length could be used and tensioned to form the aerofoil arc. Line length and attachment point are variable to change to the desired profile.


A particular stationed aerofoil batten using such arrangement could have its bowing line be a source of active in-flight control.
PilotAccessToBowingLineInBatten.jpg
PilotAccessToBowingLineInBatten.jpg (13.83 KiB) Viewed 494 times


Or in experiments, the bowing line could be changed between flights for experimental tuning of the aerodynamics of a particular HG.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:43 pm

A foundational structure that may be used in some hang glider builds to assist in tiny packs for pleasant totes:
LimitedDoubleAccordionFoundationalStructure.jpg
LimitedDoubleAccordionFoundationalStructure.jpg (86.69 KiB) Viewed 477 times

The pleats may be tapered. Final sets of lines at top and bottom may be anchored to the peaks so that the structure remains straight at deployment or may end up curved. When used as a rib with pleats set normal to wing chord, then the pleats may be seen as compression members maintaining designed airfoil; cavities of the double pleat structure may be kept empty or be with an insert, say, for added resistance to compression for flight loading.

The double accordion stayed-elasticized structure might use papers, films, plates, struts for the zig-zag elements. The lines that limit length of the deployed cells could be textiles or films, depending on uses desired; anchoring lines to the pleated rigs could be permanent or temporary. Appraise material efficiency with other construction options. Failure modes of the optional structure will depend on uses, forces, fatigue, ...

Note on the drawing: All the red could be a pleated sheet, for example; all the black could be a pleated sheet; then the joins of the red to black could be via a flexible hinging.
Note: if the red and blacks are struts then one could consider de-coloring and have through structs pinned at rotating joint for obtaining an alternative result.

=========================
Without the stays and the elastic strategies mentioned above, here below is a cousin exploration of bidirectionally flat-foldable cellular origami structure:
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby KaiMartin » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:07 pm

ARP wrote:For a single surface wing a simple bow line from leading edge of the aerofoil batten to a point approx a third along its length could be used and tensioned to form the aerofoil arc. Line length and attachment point are variable to change to the desired profile.


This looks like a great way to achieve an airfoil with cost effective run of the mill straight carbon tubes. Unfortunately, the curvature does not quite result in a NACA airfoil. The section covered by the string will bend the most in the middle between the two attachments of the string. So the leading edge portion of the batten is bent only slightly. By contrast, the curvature of virtually every desirable airfoil bends the more the closer to the leading edge. There is a solid aerodynamic reason for this geometry: The curvature accelerates the airflow. Too much acceleration results in flow separation, i.e. a stall. The larger an angle of attack can be without stalling, the better.

To avoid flow separation you'd want the air to accelerate early and also smoothly. This results in airfoils with increasing curvature toward the leading edge. Put differently, an airfoil that deviates from this very general design principle will probably expose the pilot to some nasty stall behavior.

The curvature may be more like a desirable airfoil if the diameter of the straight tube diminishes toward the leading edge. This seems like a special and therefore expensive requirement. But maybe, there is a readily available mass produced product that fits the bill: Carbon fishing rods. These rods are thin and bendy at the tip ;)

JoeF wrote: A particular stationed aerofoil batten using such arrangement could have its bowing line be a source of active in-flight control.
PilotAccessToBowingLineInBatten.jpg


As drawn, reasonably stiff battens would exert a substantial pull on the pilot. This may be mitigated by pulleys and/or levers. I'd expect the associated complexity and weight penalty to be prohibitive.

JoeF wrote: Or in experiments, the bowing line could be changed between flights for experimental tuning of the aerodynamics of a particular HG.

This seems like a more realistic mode of operation for the strings.

---<)kaimartin(>---
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby KaiMartin » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:18 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:I have been watching this Thread and it seems to where the Primary reasons for being able to short-Pack One's Glider so as to get the Glider back up a slope on the Beach.

Well, for me, the primary motivation is to simplify moving the glider from home to the mountains. With current designs the necessarily involves a decent car and a road to the launch site. With the alps more than 500 km away and the sea in a similar distance, I'd much rather use a train for the voyage. I envy para gliders for their ability to just step into a regular airlift.

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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:28 pm

Kai Martin wrote: But maybe, there is a readily available mass produced product that fits the bill: Carbon fishing rods. These rods are thin and bendy at the tip ;)


Thanks, Kai.
taperedfishingrods.jpg
taperedfishingrods.jpg (6.05 KiB) Viewed 449 times


========================================
Explore multiple strings on same batten. Say, two strings; one for the tighter accelerations. The other for the slower accelerations.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:34 pm

Frank Colver reminded us of a fine MPA paper to be studied when aiming for an inflatable hang glider: PHOENIX A Polyester-Film Inflatable Man-Powered Aircraft by F.E. To
InflatableMPAlookToHG.pdf
(457.48 KiB) Downloaded 23 times

Thanks, Frank! :salute:

Pack of a HG version just might fit the topic billing.

The late Dan Perkins, an engineer at the
Royal Aircraft Establishment at
Cardington, had identified these two
problems in the early 60's and attempted
to solve them with designs using
inflatable wings. He built four of these
inflatable-wing man-powered aircraft;
the last, "Reluctant Phoenix" (Fig 1)
proved most promising.
The aircraft was a delta flying-wing
with a wingspan of 31 ft and an empty
weight of 391b. The envelope of the
wing was made of polyurethane-coated
nylon fabric. Due to the high power
requirement for cruise, the aircraft was
limited to short hops under man-power
as it was being flight tested inside an
800ft long airship hangar. About 90
flights were made
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