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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:09 pm

TJW
I spent most of the summer of 1976 working on an inflatable hang glider for Jim Bede.
This was not the helium-filled wing. I saw pictures of it then, and there are pictures on the internet now, but I never saw that in person.
The wing I worked with was a low-pressure energy structure, in the sense that you could maintain the structure as long as you had battery for the fan to pressurize it. It was a very low pressure system, so leaks were not really an issue. Think of a bounce house in the form of a Marske plank wing as a hang glider, and you wouldn't be far off.
It used a rudder with lines to the swing seat to turn, something like a Quicksilver.

It was easy to set up in the hangar -- unroll it, attach the control bar and power up the fan.
In the field, on a training hill, with wind and rocks, it wasn't so simple. When partially inflated, it would try to beat itself to death on the rocks.

It weighed in at about 75 pounds, and would fit in the trunk of a passenger car, though it was probably a little bulkier than a paraglider because the cloth was a lot stiffer.

Unfortunately, there was a sink rate -- don't remember exact values, it was fairly high but in the realm of values I'd actually experienced in other hang gliders -- at which the fan couldn't maintain the differential pressure to keep the wings stiff. I imagined sinking, the structure getting floppy, increasing the sink rate, which would increase the floppiness... so I only ever flew it on a small hill.

But it was an interesting experience, overall.

My takeaway from that is that if the pressure is high enough that atmospheric pressure is a negligible variable, then sealing and leaks are a critical problem. If the pressure is low enough that leaks are not really a problem, then rapid descents become a problem.
===
Just to reiterate: that wasn't the wing I worked on. I saw pictures of it on the Newton airport runway, but I never saw that one myself.

It would have been either horrendously expensive to fly, or extremely slow to deflate, I think. How much helium to inflate? How long to compress it all back into a cylinder?

Still, I have to admit it solves the problem of collapsing paragliders pretty neatly.
One of my first thoughts on seeing paragliders collapsing lo those many years ago was a spar made of a Kevlar sock with a urethane liner. The idea was to keep it fairly small volume, so that it could be inflated to fairly high pressure with a CO2 cartridge. It would run tip to tip, so that while you might lose ram air pressurization and the normal airfoil shape, it would be less likely to wind up as a wad of fabric after encountering turbulence.

TjW,
Thanks for any and all your recall on your experiences in the Bede realm!

Fabric, pressure-keeping valves, over-pressure valves, pumps, porosities, ...worth continued explorations.
=================================================

James R. Bede
https://www.google.com/patents/US3944169 FILED: July 12, 1974
and
https://www.google.com/patents/US3400904

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_Wing
=================================================

Bede:
See image at site: http://www.bd5.com/BDWing.JPG
Caption at site: "Now here's something most people haven't seen -- Jim Bede's Flying Wing. It is inflatable, and survives to this day. In fact, it was auctioned in mid-1998."
========================
Sept. 1975, Popular Science:
BEDEinflatableHG.png
BEDEinflatableHG.png (252.58 KiB) Viewed 4325 times


=================
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:13 pm

Sock 2
Red found and shared:

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/doc/sock-2-doc.pdf
Also same attached in PDF:
sock-2-doc.pdf
(650.07 KiB) Downloaded 312 times

Red wrote:That .PDF file is a scanned image, and not good enough in quality for my OCR to work reliably. Does anybody have a source (link) for that article? Is anybody here willing to translate the article into English?

Now really, folks, a 160 sq. ft. (15 sq. m.) rigid wing, 80~96 lbs (37~44 kg), made with repairable and affordable aluminum and sailcloth?
The composite crew is going to have kittens over this heresy! :lol: I can't wait to hear it!

I think the glider pictured has a bit of Twinkie Effect going: lots of pieces which are not that heavy, but they add up to a large number in total mass. I'd fully expect the production units to be close to that 80 lb. target weight in the specs.

Just when a guy might be thinking that glider evolution may have slowed or stopped, here is a whole new species emerging!
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Bill Cummings » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:22 pm

JoeF wrote:Sock 2
Red found and shared:

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/doc/sock-2-doc.pdf
Also same attached in PDF:
sock-2-doc.pdf

Red wrote:That .PDF file is a scanned image, and not good enough in quality for my OCR to work reliably. Does anybody have a source (link) for that article? Is anybody here willing to translate the article into English?

Now really, folks, a 160 sq. ft. (15 sq. m.) rigid wing, 80~96 lbs (37~44 kg), made with repairable and affordable aluminum and sailcloth?
The composite crew is going to have kittens over this heresy! :lol: I can't wait to hear it!

I think the glider pictured has a bit of Twinkie Effect going: lots of pieces which are not that heavy, but they add up to a large number in total mass. I'd fully expect the production units to be close to that 80 lb. target weight in the specs.

Just when a guy might be thinking that glider evolution may have slowed or stopped, here is a whole new species emerging!

The PDF is difficult to copy text from. My plan was to run it through Google Translate (copy/paste) but it won't copy.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:25 pm

Bill, someone might one day generate a translation of that article! Thanks.
====================================================================

The "sock" technique (put a sock over your feet in the morning) for "sailing" a base frame has high potential, IMO. Focus on presto-changeOH! frame. Then "sock it from left and from right; zip it closed. Fly.
Unzip; unsock. Presto-chango-bring-in-frame. Use socks to bag all.
=======================================================

Consider socks for modules, say five modules that butt to each other: central and then two modules for left and two modules for right.

=====================================
Notice that one may deploy inner structure within a sock.
Or deploy inner structure and then bring sock over the deployed structure.
Examining the differences of the two methods may be profitable.

=====================================
Notice that the bladder-encasement tactic is actually a "sock" method; the encasement socks the bladder.

And notice that "socks" may be in parts that zip or Velcro together for complete socking. Also, consider tucked-in edges of sock or sail parts as a frame sits ready for for being "dressed".

======================================
Look to solutions that are for DIY. Look to a return to "plans" given away free to public domain. Look to a collection of many DIY plans. Notice the niche use of the fast Woopy Jump. Well, niche hang gliding has hundreds of specialized activities; there need not be one super glider only. Designs for micro hang gliding at coastal sand dunes need not have all the bling of designs for thermal play.
=======================================
Bow HGs have been explored; but the exploring is not finished.
=======================================
Reefable trailing-edge module (RTEM) that is 1 ft in chord on a 30-ft span HG would add 30 sq ft of wing while cleaning up the TE for flutter matters. Resolving the quick attach of RTEM. Reefing, depending on structure method of RTEM, could be section pressed-flats, or coilable full length, or drop-stitch inflated, ...
=======================================
Reefable leading edge module (RLEM) might be placed onto a base wing structure. "placing" might be done by zipper, Velcro, tongue-groove, magnetics, ...
=======================================
X methods. Series of joined Xs. Deployable structures.
==============================================
Image
===
Image
=====
Image
====
Image
====
Joining a discusssion:
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl ... 6919005/30
=================
Image
====

===
Goodyear dropstitch wing construction: Directions for HG wings?
See video short: https://youtu.be/fuHm6q9smR8
===
Study page: http://www.energykitesystems.net/Materials/Fabrics/DropStitch/index.html
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Bill Cummings » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:34 pm

Хboct писал(а) 08.02.11 :: 13:46:37:
Подавляющее большенство уток и летающих крыльев.

Володя, ты абсолютно прав. В истории действительно было много аппаратов с поворотными рулями на концах, одних Pterodactyl Acsender было выпущено больше тысячи штук. Освежил в памяти теорию, посмотрел видеоролики и пришел к выводу, что такой маневренности как на этих аппаратах, будет вполне достаточно. Еще понравилась спойлерная система как на жесткокрыле ATOS и других, но ее в данном случае сложнее организовать.

Хboct wrote: 02.02.11 :: 13:46:37:
The vast majority of ducks and flying wings.

Volodya, you are absolutely right. In the history there really were a lot of devices with swiveling rudders at the ends, more than a thousand pieces of Pterodactyl Acsender were produced. He refreshed the theory, looked at the videos and came to the conclusion that such maneuverability as on these devices would be quite enough. I also liked the spoiler system, like the ATOS and others, but in this case it is more difficult to organize it.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:57 pm

Regarding above post by Bill:
http://www.reaa.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1296919005/37
And from there:

and

and
Image

And some furthering from their lead:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3106373
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:10 pm

Hey Joe,

Have you considered purchasing a Woopy?

It might be a very good training glider for sites like Dockweiler.

Do you know what they cost? Are they busable?
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:22 pm

Bob,
Woopy may be made busable. Don't know the cost of Woopy HG.
I study Woopy for years.
Yet for me:================================
High value: design something new for a niche utility that is very easy to build.
High value: homebuilt
Buying finished wing does not attract me.
The sewing on the Woopy is beyond my first-level cares.
I am near a first version of Wing-5v1 :) High-Hat and Safe-Splat; busable tote-pack bag is actually of parts forming TE of Wing-5v1. Niche: Dockweiler. Today's estimate is about 190 sq. ft. Estimate of AR about 4.5.
Thanks,
Joe
=======================================
In 2010 photo, looks like designer is holding a Colver Basic Trainer:
Woopy founder Laurent de Kalbermatten
Image
Quote from 2010:
De Kalbermattan has developed a simple “Woopy Jump” hang glider that is popular on ski slopes to extend a skier’s jump, and the “Woopy Fly” trike powered by a small two-stroke engine or an electric motor.

He explained that the Woopy Fly fulfills his “one hour concept”: “During your lunch hour you can drive from your office to an open field, unpack and inflate Woopy, fly around for 20 minutes, deflate and pack everything back into the trunk of your car, and then return to your office, with a smile on your face.”

Recall video:



then
motorize UL

Water landing:
Last edited by JoeF on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby Red » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Bob Kuczewski wrote:Hey Joe,
Have you considered purchasing a Woopy? It might be a very good training glider for sites like Dockweiler. Do you know what they cost? Are they busable?
Bob,

Looks like a regular transit bus would be a very possible transport vehicle, especially for the glider alone. It is already about five feet long, in the bag. I have no idea about the true price, but I'd guess ~US$10K +/- a few, and a few K more for the power unit. Remember, in the HG world, R&D means Rip-off and Duplicate. ;) I could increase the performance of the wing with very little effort. YouTube:

https://youtu.be/4N2H2LvUV3A
.
Cheers,
Red

P.S. Free advice, maybe worth the price,
for new and low-airtime HG pilots, on my web page . . .

https://user.xmission.com/~red/
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Re: The 5 ft-packed-HG Movement

Postby JoeF » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:48 pm

RED, R&D :) Thanks!
=====================================
From the Goodyear patent, a clip:
GoodyearBlain.JPG
GoodyearBlain.JPG (52.67 KiB) Viewed 4298 times


Item 114 looks like a wide roller for Safe-Splat.
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