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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Craig Muhonen » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:52 pm

Rick Masters wrote:County of Los Angeles
Department of Beaches and Harbors
13837 Fiji Way
Marina Del Ray
CA 90292

Dear County of Los Angeles,

It has come to our attention that, while hang glider pilots are charged to use Dockweiler Beach, enthusiasts of other sports are not. We are therefore submitting a formal Request for Proposal (RFP) for concessionaire for the following activities which are presently not covered under the current regulations:

Biking
Diving
Fishing
Surfing
Swimming
Volleyball

All these activities have produced greater accident numbers than hang gliding at Dockweiler Beach. Therefore, to be equitable and fair, we propose requiring each participant to buy insurance from us to use Dockweiler Beach facilities, using the same model required for hang gliding. Because we are self-insured, it will be necessary for each participant to buy a term of membership in our corporation. We will, of course, ignore California Recreation Law, which holds your County harmless, and maintain the pretext that insurance is necessary for all activities taking place on Los Angeles County premises. The extra money will help us to provide a living wage for the people we hire to regulate these activities. Any who refuse to buy insurance will be turned away or arrested by Los Angeles County police on our complaint. We will, of course, be free to establish our own rates.

Sincerely,
Predatory A. Hole

cc: ACLU

- reposted from another US Hawks forum thread -


??????????????????????????????????????????u$hpa¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

These are the kind of thought processes and articulated words that are needed more and more, to "educate", have fun with "issues" and make people think.

Submitted with a chuckle .
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:27 am

Thanks Craig. That was almost 3 years ago ... and still valid today.

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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:10 am

According to recent reports on the Oz Forum, the RRRG is facing a lawsuit that could bankrupt their insurance scheme. It's enlightening to review the comments in this topic including these two posts by Rick Masters and Joe Faust:

Rick Masters on Apr 26, 2017 wrote:Joe, there is no question in my mind that people who want to practice hang gliding freely in the future should stay as far away from the RRG and the USHPA as possible. There are legal obligations to members which have been discussed previously on this forum. You do not want to get stuck with debt obligations for years for actions that are someone else's or some other group's responsibility. People who want to hang glide should seek out hang glider pilots and drive for them. After a while they will teach you. It's not a mass market thing. The mass marketing forces led by USHPA certified schools teaching hang gliding and paragliding are destroying the sport. Hang gliding is an art. You can't mass market that. Teaching paragliding, because of the future potential of collapse, is a fool's errand. If you try, you end up with a lot of people who shouldn't be doing it. If you then take all the people who shouldn't be doing it and get every member of the USHPA to insure them, it's not going to end well. Don't get involved in it. Go outlaw or go home.

JoeF on Apr 26, 2017 wrote:Agreed. I got caught up in the legal challenge. Yes: STAY AWAY FROM THE RRRG, Joe and Bob ! Stay away.
Thanks. My gut is telling me that the RRRG is not going to be able to meet the financial health required by law; the mentality within the USHPA will surely grind out lawsuits from families that will collapse the funny parachute that the RRRG thinks it is. Stay away. Learn the art of HG by local methodical unrushed mentoring under recreational statutes.

Thanks again Rick. I hold you as one of my HG mentors, a group that includes Richard Miller and Bruce Carmichael. :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:


Recently on the Oz Report (http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64639)

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From https://recreationrrg.com/rrrg-governance:

RRRG_Board.png
RRRG_Board.png (22.19 KiB) Viewed 658 times


Board and Governance

Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. Board and Management

Recreation RRG is managed by a five member board of directors. The directors are chosen annually by a majority vote of the insured shareholders. Most of the directors are hang glider and paraglider pilots with extensive experience in corporate management. Two officers serve in a non-voting capacity as corporate secretary and as assistant corporate secretary.

Bill Bolosky
President and Board Member
Bill Bolosky is a former president of USHPA and of the Foundation For Free Flight, and a senior researcher at Microsoft Corporation.

Mark Forbes
Treasurer and Board Member
Mark Forbes is an electronic design engineer, hang glider, paraglider and ultralight pilot, and served on USHPA's board of directors for many years.

Timothy Herr
Secretary, Risk Management Officer, and General Counsel
Tim Herr is a practicing attorney in California and serves as corporate counsel for USHPA.

David Leggett
Board Member
David Leggett is a business owner in Pennsylvania, hang glider pilot and former president of both USHPA and the Foundation.

Timothy Sullivan
Board Member
Timothy Sullivan has over 25 years of experience in management and profitable growth in the Professional Liability Insurance industry including reinsurance, marketing, compliance, product development, claims, underwriting, IT project oversight, and agency sales management.

Patricia Henderson
Assistant Secretary
Patricia Henderson is an insurance industry professional based in Burlington, Vermont, specializing in the management of Risk Retention Groups.

Calef Letorney
Board Member
Calef Letorney is a Paragliding flight school owner in Vermont, who has served on the board of directors of USHPA.

Recreation Risk Retention
Group, Inc.
159 Bank Street, Fourth Floor
Burlington, VT 05401
P: (802) 383-1541
info@recreationrrg.com


It's always Mark Forbes with his fingers in the money, and it's always Tim Herr providing the "counsel". No one in USHPA or the RRRG is actually working to stop the dangerous practices that fuel these law suits. Instead, USHPA retaliates against expert witnesses who testify against them. That may make them feel better in the short run, but it is unsustainable in the long run.
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:56 am

Mark Forbes responded:

Mgforbes
Re: RRRG Litigation?
Post Thu, Mar 10 2022, 05:51:35 pm

Mark Forbes here. I serve as CFO of Recreation RRG. I can't answer most of the questions that you're all about to clamor for answers to, so don't bother asking.

What you saw in the announcement from the RRG is what can be released at present. What you read from people like Hanning and Mcaleer is misinformed ranting. This litigation is a long way from being over, and meanwhile Recreation RRG continues to operate, insuring pilots, schools, chapters, landowners and USHPA.

The fundamental understanding within our sport must be the belief that we're all responsible for our own safety, and on ourselves alone falls the duty of care to stay safe. We all agree as a condition of USHPA membership that we will not sue or make a claim against landowners, pilots or anybody else if we get hurt. The plaintiff in this case broke his promise and sued. He found a judge and jury sympathetic to his argument that his promise should not be binding. If pilots feel that they can break their promise not to sue others, then it's difficult to see how insurance could remain viable even with a massive increase in premiums. That's just not sustainable. When members of our flying community actively encourage one pilot to sue another, or make public statements casting blame and calling for retribution, it damages us all.

The insurance policy now excludes claims between pilots, so a future mid-air collision would not be an insurable event. It also excludes claims for gross negligence, in addition to criminal negligence previously excluded. As we continue to gain experience, the insurance policies continue to be refined, expanding coverage where it's feasible, restricting it where unacceptable risk becomes evident.

Recreation RRG continues to operate normally, and I expect that a final resolution of this case is many months in the future. Claims are something that happens in the insurance business, and they don't generally rise to a level of concern within the pilot community. Perhaps once this is finally settled out and fully 'done', we can have an in-depth discussion about what happened and how it was handled. For right now, "I can't comment on pending litigation."

MGF


As usual, Mark Forbes ignores important aspects of the topic. For example Mark Forbes made this statement:

The fundamental understanding within our sport must be the belief that we're all responsible for our own safety, and on ourselves alone falls the duty of care to stay safe. We all agree as a condition of USHPA membership that we will not sue or make a claim against landowners, pilots or anybody else if we get hurt.


That sounds pretty good on the surface doesn't it? But think about what it means. We have a court system to protect the innocent and to punish the guilty. It's not a perfect system (believe me on that), but imagine what we'd have without it. We'd have all kinds of shysters preying on people in our sport. We'd have flagrant violations of laws and safety rules. We'd have extreme and reckless behavior In the sky. In a word, we'd literally have lawlessness. Any sane and responsible person would avoid getting into the sport.

In general we have laws and courts to discourage the kinds of behavior that would destroy our society. We have them for good reason. What makes Mark Forbes think that removing that system of accountability will somehow benefit the sport of hang gliding? Removing that accountability is like advertising to the world:

"Hey all you shysters, criminals, and reckless people, come join the sports of hang gliding and paragliding where we will do our best to protect you from the consequences of your illegal and/or reckless behavior."


Sadly, that's pretty much what has happened. The result is similar to the results of the misguided "defund the police" efforts. Criminal activity goes through the roof. Fortunately, the laws of our nation still stand regardless of any attempts to carve out so called "autonomous zones" of lawlessness. USHPA and Forbes discovered that (the hard way) in the Shannon Hamby case.

Now the USHPA/Forbes model to avoid the courts might have had a prayer of sustainability if USHPA had made a legitimate effort to keep irresponsible criminals out of the sport (self-regulation). But that's another area where USHPA failed. In a healthy organization, my February 2010 report to the USHPA Executive Committee (including Mark Forbes) and to USHPA's Chairman of Safety and Training should have triggered an investigation into the Torrey business that would have prevented Shannon Hamby's injuries in 2011. But USHPA and Mark Forbes did nothing. So when self-regulation fails, the courts take over. That's the lesson that Forbes should have learned from the Hamby case and from USHPA's subsequent loss of insurance. Sadly, his recent comment (just yesterday) reflects differently.

Of course, this is a perspective that should be posted to the Oz topic where Forbes is spewing his propaganda. But Davis Straub has banned anyone who will challenge Mark Forbes. That's what makes these bannings so significant. They silence the very voices (Faust, Masters, Reese, Wise, Narron, Kuczewski, and many others) needed to keep the sport from going off the rails. Frank and others can claim "vive la différence" with regard to the major hang gliding forums, but they are ignoring the consequences of trying to sustain a sport where important perspectives are suppressed in any venue.
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby DaveSchy » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:21 am

Shysters like MGF, who makes $60,000 annual salary bilking what's left of a once great club. Better than a real job!
Like USHPA president squeezing $100,000 annual salary, plus expenses, from a shriveled husk of a once great club. These 2 bozos alone account for roughly 10 percent of annual revenue.... Disgusting
The thing about them is that their own words are proof of their greed and total disregard of the people who actually pay for this Forbonian-Boloskian drivel.
Well, they're consistent!
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby DaveSchy » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:43 am

WHEN the RRRG goes bankrupt, every USHPA member will be on the hook for liabilities incurred. Its in the bylaws
WHEN Vermont finally rules the RRRG as illegal and predatory, TH, MGF, Dweebus Blob and their icky ilk will undoubtedly slink away scot free, it's already started
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Craig Muhonen » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:54 am

JoeF wrote; Agreed :salute: :salute: :salute: in reply to Rick Masters :salute: :salute: :salute: and BobK :salute: :salute: :salute:
"Thanks. My gut is telling me that the RRRG is not going to be able to meet the financial health required by law; the mentality within the USHPA will surely grind out lawsuits from families that will collapse the funny parachute that the RRRG thinks it is".

USHPA will surely GRIND OUT THE LAWSUITS
=====================================================================================================================
Time for somepeople in the core of the "50" to step forward and organize, before it's too late. use FOIA hard, and the courts, and your own innate wit, (camera phone) and make your case for all "Hang Gliding".
USHPA uses ( DELIE), and misspells it as, "DELAY", either way.

C:+o)
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby DaveSchy » Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:36 pm

It's actually to be expected that the boneless (airframe less) abused will continue to submit to incessant bullying. That's been going on for so long now that the abusers claim status quo!

And shame on hg pilots who continue to drink "insurance" Kool aid, who bully, ostracize and try to exclude legitimate pilots from accessing airspace from private land in their own quest for an ego shot (like Dog Mt). Offering any "insurance" to any land owner public or private, is counter productive, stupid and lazy, given outdoor recreation laws in place for more than half a century.
As Bugs Bunny said " what a bunch of maroons"!

Pay to play, prostitutes!
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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Craig Muhonen » Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:43 am

An email from a friend Jeff Campbell jcsystems42@gmail.com

Craig,
Food for thought. Both hang gliding and paragliding were adopted. The Rogallo re-entry wing and the Jalbert parafoil had little insight on what they would become today. Rick’s rants on “laundry” vs “airframe” are spot on. But I think it’s best to remember that both pursuits were borrowed. Both are inexpensive means to get off this rock and enter another dimension. All aeronauts should applaud that.

I bought my Jobe 16ft hang glider from Jeff Jobe at the base of Heavenly Daze in Steamboat. It was a 90 degree nose Rogallo with 135 sq ft of sail. The control bar had hook and release mechanism in the middle for water ski rope attachment. Bill Moyes and Bill Bennett were demonstrating hang gliding at Cypress Garden water ski events. Jobe adopted it to snow skis.

My training was me. No USHGA. Self-taught with many a tale. Initially took the kite back to Michigan and taught myself over water (Jobe’s recommendation). After many crashes and rebuilds, ta da! Flight. Crashes and rebuilds continued in Telluride that first winter. It was a very entertaining time, for some.
Take care. Stay safe.
Jeff
====================================================================================================================

I find it interesting that the end of "The Cold War"(1990), brought Chinese built, Jalbert type "paragliders" to the world, and just by sheer numbers of these "adopted" wings, formed an "easy class" of aeronauts, by the ten's of thousands, and they go their own way.

Being in an airplane (airframe) with my dad since I was born, and then becoming a private pilot, taught me a "Master" trade which is Hard to learn but "easy" to master, only because of the confidence I developed with the "airframedcraft" that I chose.
Same with HG over PG.
====================================================================================================================
oh by the way, my dad :salute: commanded a, very low flying, "conventional" war plane which helped win the war in the Pacific. They were the 499th, Batts Outta Hell. The Ukrainians could use these "straffers" to full advantage.... ha..

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Re: Recreation Risk Retention Group, Inc. (RRRG)

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:11 am

This link from the Oz Forum topic has more information:

https://tluvirtual.com/event/firtat-v-p ... russ-gold/

Funar v. Pavlik – $7.44M Verdict for a Mid-Air Paraglider

This case involved a mid-air paraglider collision. Defendant Peter Pavlik, flying above and behind plaintiff Alex Funar, crashed into the rear edge of Funar’s paraglider wing. Funar’s wing collapsed and he fell approximately 100 feet to the mountainside below. Funar suffered a severe spinal fracture requiring a 4-level spinal fusion.

All paragliders must sign a broad waiver agreeing not to sue other paragliders and assuming all risks of injury while participating in the sport. Therefore, Funar had to prove that Pavlik’s conduct was (1) grossly negligent to avoid the waiver, and (2) so reckless it was entirely outside the range of ordinary activity involved in paragliding. Pavlik contended that Funar was in Pavlik’s blind spot and Funar should have been more aware of Pavlik’s location. Therefore, according to Pavlik, the collision was an unfortunate accident that did not give rise to liability, and Funar was also at fault for failing to “see and avoid” Pavlik.

Before reaching trial, Funar prevailed on Pavlik’s motion for summary judgment based on federal pre-emption, waiver, and primary assumption of risk. Then Funar prevailed on Pavlik’s petition to the Court of Appeal seeking a peremptory writ of mandate.

At trial, the jury returned a verdict finding Pavlik grossly negligent and reckless without any comparative fault by Funar. The jury decided total damages of $7,443,369.74, which included $1 million for past non-economic damages and $5 million for future non-economic damages. The judgment will exceed $9 million after CCP §998 costs and interest.
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