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Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:41 pm

I've been talking to Chris about his Predator, and we've decided to build a computer model for fun. The model will likely start out somewhat crude, but we can refine it over time.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:58 pm

Hello Everyone:

I am just about to eat Lunch, I prepare and I eat Lunch with My 86 Year old Mother every day. I also prepare Breakfast for the Two of US also. My sister makes Dinner each Day.

Well then I am going to get my Altair 158 Predator out along with My Cell-Phone, a length of Chord, a Tape Measure, and a Fifty foot tape. Bob And I are attempting to become better informed as to just how My Glider is shaped.

You know I have had My Predator for oh about Twenty Years. I am still blown away by what a World beater it is. john when You designed the Dredator You really did; "HIT ONE OUT OF THE PARK"
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:16 pm

That sounds great Chris.    :thumbup:

We'll be taking measurements to put into the JavaScript program at https://ushawks.org/designer/.

The first thing to note about the actual program is that many of the locations and lengths are relative to other locations and lengths. This is helpful for a program where you want to vary things and have them properly affect other things. But for taking raw measurements, this "everything is relative" approach is somewhat difficult. So I've created a form (below) that makes it easier to capture the raw measurements as absolute values. We can then convert those to the relative measurements that the program expects. With that goal in mind, here's how you should take the measurements to fill out the form (below).

You will probably want to print the form so you can have it with you. If you can't print it, then just write it down on paper so you'll have it in your hands when you do the measuring. You can use any convenient units, but it's best to use the units of your measuring tape to reduce conversion errors. In most cases that will be feet and inches. That way you can just write them down on the form. Also, there may be some things that are hard to measure. Just make your best estimate, and write it down. We can always change it later.

Start with the glider fully set up, and be sure that it is properly tied down and secured. We will need it fully set up to get the locations (x,y,z absolute coordinates) of the wing geometry. It might be convenient to have the keel be as level as possible.

The program assumes that the "y" axis lies along the keel, and that the "z" axis is up. That means that the "x" axis points out toward the right wing (for a right-handed coordinate system). The origin (where x, y, and z axes meet) can be anywhere along the keel. But for this procedure, we're going to pick the location where a line joining the two wingtips crosses the keel because it simplifies the measuring process. The easiest way to find this origin is to stretch a string from one wingtip to the other and mark the keel (using tape or marker) where that string crosses the keel. We will call that point the origin of our model.

Once you have the origin, you can begin to make the 18 measurements and fill out this form:


























Name Value                 Description
Length of Leading Edge        Length of the leading edge from nose to tip
Length of Keel        Length of the keel
Keel Front y        Distance from the origin to the front tip of the keel
Keel Rear y        Distance from the origin to the rear tip of the keel
Wing Tip x        Distance from the origin to the right wing tip
Wing Tip z        Vertical distance between the origin and right wing tip (this might be hard to measure, so just estimate it)
Control Bar Height        Vertical distance from the base tube to the keel (perpendicular distance from the keel to the base tube)
Control Bar Width        Width of the base tube from corner to corner
Control Bar Location        Distance along the keel from the nose to the apex of the control frame
Control Bar Rake        Horizontal distance along the keel from the apex of the control frame to the base tube (this may be hard to measure, so just estimate it)
Cross Bar at Leading Edge        Distance along the leading edge from nose to cross bar junction where the cross bar meets the leading edge
Cross Bar at Keel        Distance along the keel from the nose to the cross bar where it crosses the keel
Cross Bar z from Keel        Vertical distance between the keel and the cross bar (typically 0 to a few inches)
Kingpost at Keel        Distance along the keel from the nose to the kingpost (you can also measure from the rear of the keel and subtract from the keel length)
Kingpost Height        Vertical distance (perpendicular to keel) from the keel to top of the kingpost
Kingpost Rake        Horizontal distance (parallel to keel) between top and bottom of kingpost
Trailing Edge        Distance along the keel from the nose to the trailing edge of the sail
Rear Wire        Distance along the keel from the nose to the rear wire where it attaches to the keel

Please call or text if you have any questions.

Have fun!!
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Re: Predator Model

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm

https://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/64- ... edator.htm
Model 142
Model 158

http://upgliders.com/predator/
====================
Image

For archival studies:
PREDATOR

Predator on ground

The PREDATOR is an advanced hang glider designed to meet the exacting requirements of the advanced pilot. The Predator is strong, light weight, has excellent handling, performance and great landing characteristics.

The proven carbon fiber airframe enables the Predator to be both light and strong, and allows a dialed-in flex/rigidity distribution to give super strength, excellent wing shape definition and great handling.� To improve performance the Predator is designed with reduced twist and a myriad of unique design features that enhance the performance characteristics yet still maintain pitch stability and sweet handling. The Predator’s semi-symmetrical airfoil in the tip area produces less drag at low angles of attack which results in a higher usable top speed and improved high speed glide ratio. To further improve wing efficiency, particularly in the tip area, the Predator incorporates boundary layer energizers (vortex generators) that keep the airflow attached through higher angles of attack.

The Predator sail is made by the most experienced and meticulous sailmaking team in the hang gliding industry who use materials and techniques geared toward a higher quality and longer lasting sail.� The Predator has one of the highest aspect ratios (8:1) of any glider for better glide potential.

The Predator is a unique wing. Even with its exceptional performance, you will enjoy the feel of confidence in all flying conditions in your Predator.

We at UP understand that your choice of glider is important to you.� The Predator is a glider designed by a team that knows what it means to fly an exceptional glider.� From set-up to landability, your glider must be the best.� You will find that your Predator will meet or exceed your requirements, from subtle details such as comfortable static balance to performance characteristics such as the fastest documented acceleration of any glider in the world.


SPECIFICATIONS
� PREDATOR 142 PREDATOR 158
Span 34' 35' 4"
Area 142.5 ft2 158 ft2
Aspect ratio 8.0 : 1 8.0 : 1
Pilot hook-in weight 140 - 220 lbs 220 - 300 lbs.
Nose Angle 132� 132�
Airframe Carbon Fiber/6061 Carbon Fiber/6061
Pilot skill Advanced Advanced
Weight 64 lbs. 67 lbs.
List Price (US $) $5900 $5995
View the sail diagram

Standard Features

Vortex generators on aft leading edge
Automatic kingpost system for hassle-free quick set-up - integral with rear haulback
Internal lacing system for inflight airfoil adjustment - integral with VG
Semi-symmetrical 100% double surface tip area
Low drag Sensor downtubes and king-post
No-kink side wire attachment - machined corner fitting to allow side wire rotation during fold down
Plastic teardrop tip fairings
Profiltm, or X-ply leading edge cloth with Mylar inserts for improved sail shape and durability
Heavy-duty polyester cover bag with polyurethane lining - padded in vortex generator area
Options

Speed ribs in tip area (recommended for extensive aerobatic or high speed flight)
Various Mylar types for the leading edge
Trailing edge string (anti-tear)
Lever style rib tips



:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: John noted in his resume: "Wrote flight manuals and service manuals for all gliders developed by Altair Hang Gliders - 1994-2000" So: [ ] seek manual for Predator ....
:salute:
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:19 pm

JoeF wrote:
predator_id64.jpg
predator_id64.jpg (59.26 KiB) Viewed 77 times

Thanks Joe!! That picture reminds me that my design software will need some upgrading to handle the double surface and the slightly curved leading edge. The measurements by Chris will help me with those changes.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:15 pm

I heard from Chris that he won't be able to do the measurements for a few days. So to kill some time, I figured I'd add a few images from a photo shoot that John supported a few years back. I was part of John's "glider management team" during the photo shoot. The full set of images are available here:

    https://www.johnheiney.com/additional/kevin_michael_schmitz.htm

Here are the 4 best shots showing John's Predator:

secret_agent_frame_3.jpg
secret_agent_frame_3.jpg (34.28 KiB) Viewed 72 times

secret_agent_frame_6.jpg
secret_agent_frame_6.jpg (59.79 KiB) Viewed 72 times

secret_agent_frame_9.jpg
secret_agent_frame_9.jpg (64.71 KiB) Viewed 72 times

secret_agent_frame_12.jpg
secret_agent_frame_12.jpg (56.35 KiB) Viewed 72 times
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 pm

This for Me is just so cool. For I definitely am going through a sort of Life Changing event in My life. Yes I did do the I; "Got too close to Death Deal" Eleven Years Five Months ago. Currently I am just chomping on doing this Measuring on My Predator on Thursday. Yes Bob and I hope that We can go forward with performing some Modifications that will Make the Predator an even better Glider than it already is.

It is Funny, well it is funny to Me anyways when I think back to Flying my Predator with Friends. On days when I would be going Flying XC with with Friends. Well every once in the While up on Launch a Pilot would say to Me; "Chris You should think about getting a Topless Glider." I would say; "That I was very pleased with the Performance of My Predator" Take note; I never heard a Pilot who flew a Topless Glider make this type of a comment to me After We both had Flown XC on a given Day. No I heard these comments only on launch while We were setting up our Gliders. To be Totally Honest I am really only say maybe I was a better than average Pilot. I would never say that I was a Hot Pilot. I got around, that is it. It was tHe Predator that gave Me the edge. One aspect of the Predators great ability to perform so well was that I could be so darn low, while I could Still climb back up to go back on Glide.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:23 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:This for Me is just so cool. For I definitely am going through a sort of Life Changing event in My life.

Yes, in my opinion, you've been making amazing progress in the time that I've known you. I think you joined the U.S. Hawks back in 2013, and I've seen a great difference since then.

Chris McKeon wrote:Currently I am just chomping on doing this Measuring on My Predator on Thursday. Yes Bob and I hope that We can go forward with performing some Modifications that will Make the Predator an even better Glider than it already is.

Let's walk before we can run. The initial model will be mostly eye candy. But it will be a start. We won't know where we will go from there until we get there. So this is just the first small steps in a much longer journey. But the good news is that everything you do like this is helping you to reconnect your neurons. I'm really glad to be able to help.
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Chris McKeon » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:40 pm

Check this thought out. I have been on one Heck of a Journey. For I not only survived when I pounded myself into the ground 11 Years ago. But here I am going forward with a project with which I may be able to improve My Predators Performance. You Guys really do not have any idea how this feels for Me to be doing this. But then again How could You guys know how I am feeling? My Physical abilities are returning. Each day weather I am pulling weeds, Working on My road Runner. It really does not matter what endeavor I am doing. But each day I regain more and More dexterity. One thing that I do so as to improve the Finger dexterity on My left Hand. I play My Gibson SG Guitar. Playing my SG has really been a great way for me to be able have my Left hand and fingers acquire more dexterity.


[ MARSHALL IMPROVEMENT]

I do not know who does the work that I want to have done on My Marshall 100 Amp Tipple Lead Amplifier. I want my Amplifier modified so that it will go to TWELVE!
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Re: Predator Model

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:31 am

In Banned of Brothers, Chris McKeon wrote:I just simply love My Predator. My Predator is laying i9n the shade by the Back Garage. First thing Tomorrow I will Set the Glider up. I will tie a line onto one wing-Tip. I will then run that Line to the other Wing-Tip. Thisway I will have the line act as a reference point so that Measurements can be taken. Yes come tomorrow morning I will be calling Bob.


I look forward to it.   :thumbup:
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