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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Chris McKeon » Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:51 pm

This Paraglider Hang Glider conflict I believe that much of This could of, and can have been avoided. Take when ParaGliders were allowed to join Our organization back in the eighties. Granted Hindsight is Twenty-Twenty. But Paragliders merely want to Fly. I mean as one's were already Flying. We should have understood and embraced their Desire, There Desire to be allowed to pursue the Dream. I remember writing a letter to U-S-H-G-A saying; That We should show Paragliders how we formed Our Own Organization, USHGA. Then They would have their own Organization. They could do anything they wanted to with their own organization. Yes We would still have Our Organization, They would have their Organization. No Problems, no Fuse no muse.

COSTAL RIDGE SOARING SITES: I myself have experienced conflicts while Flying with Paragliders. I know the solution to having a Conflict when Soaring. Heck when soaring with anybody for that matter. I say Fly XC. If I was say flying XC from a Mountain site. When I was 20-30-40-50 or more miles from where i started My Launch. I have never Flown into a conflict with
other Pilots, Hang Gliders or Para Gliders. I seriously doubt that a Pilot experienced a Mid-Air, say 50 Miles from launch. I could be wrong about this. But I seriously I doubt that I am wrong.

I say adopt the Motto "I Fly Safely, I Fly XC"
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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:57 pm

Craig Muhonen wrote:Paraglider type airplane, full of fuel, crashes into a bunch of people who were in a hot air balloon, almost killing everyone, but "nothing to see here". If a Hang Glider would have been the airplane, they would have done 15 minutes, with 25 photos &...

USHPA controlled media, by just another 5G "Non-Profit".


I sharpened up the image a bit to hopefully make it easier to read.

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This article is unbelievable. "Things are not always as they seem"??? :shock:

That entire article seems to be saying:

"No, the paramotor pilot wasn't irresponsibly buzzing the balloon and crashing into it. No, no, nothing like that. He was just flying along straight and level and didn't notice an enormous slow moving balloon rising directly ahead of him in his path."


Oh, right. That's a much better spin on things.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:17 pm

Chris McKeon wrote:This Paraglider Hang Glider conflict I believe that much of This could of, and can have been avoided.


My understanding is that the PG national club couldn't stay afloat financially. So they came to USHGA begging to be taken in. USHGA's leadership saw more members as more dollars and welcomed them in. I had first flown hang gliders in 1978 and paragliders around 1990. When I decided to "get serious" about both sports in 2004, I was happy to see that they had merged because it was one less club to join. That was a very short-sighted viewpoint.

The two sports should have separate organizations. They could share things like lobbying efforts and insurance, but they should have retained individual identities so they could market for their own sports without conflict. Period.

You will not see USHPA advertise the collapse problem because it doesn't serve the majority of their members. But a separate USHGA would have done so to help keep so many potential hang glider pilots from becoming paraglider pilots (or dead paraglider pilots). That's the way the free market is supposed to work. But by becoming a monopoly controlling both sports, USHPA has subverted the many benefits of free market competition.

The U.S. Hawks was created to fill that void and become an organization dedicated to supporting the sport of hang gliding. That is USHPA's worst nightmare, and that's why USHPA did their best to smear me as a founder of the U.S. Hawks. Does anyone remember the very first reason cited in my explusion? Here it is:

Expulsion_Reason_1.png
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There it is in black and white. I was expelled (in part) because I created "at least two national hang gliding organizations with the stated purpose of competing with USHPA" (one of which I still controlled). That's about as anti-competitive and monopolistic as an organization can get. So I was expelled from USHPA, in part, for creating this web site which hosts the U.S. Hawks Hang Gliding Association. Disgusting.

But you won't read any of that on hanggliding.org because Jack Axaopoulos doesn't want anyone to join the U.S. Hawks. If you even mention the U.S. Hawks, your post will be changed and you will be threatened. Yet Tom "Red" Howard and his cronies will bend over backwards to kiss Jack's behind to keep from being banned. Tom Howard was terrified when I offered to host a forum version of his web site because he thought Jack would see it and ban him on the spot. It's disgusting to see people crawling on their hands and knees to appease Jack. For anyone who's familiar with the movie "It's a Wonderful Life", you might think of hanggliding.org as the "Pottersville" of hang gliding where everyone has to go crawling to Potter (Jack).



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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Craig Muhonen » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:01 am

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"Expect Asymmetric Collapses"...??? what??
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"A Highly experienced acro pilot and instructor, took a collapse"... ?? what ??
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"Blackout happens so quickly", "It's absurdly dangerous", "A particularly lethal recurring theme". So why would any truthful instructor ever suggest flying a Paraglider?
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"A Paraglider is a Paraglider", "A Wing is an airframe". Who wants to buy a Paraglider every year or two?
A Hang Glider airframe can last 10 times that long.

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"A highly accessible Fun Hobby"....????
That's why there are so many lazy paraglider pilots.
"A Hobby". common' man.

============================================================================================================================
Bob, show us how to sharpen up a screenshot image, and fit it on a post. TY.

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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby DaveSchy » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:19 am

When the USHGA was approached by paragliding, it was after they were unable to obtain insurance on their own, or through the skydiving clubs.
USHGA had stellar insurance through Lloyd's of London for many years and that is what the PG community needed.
USHGA got greedy, drank that grape Kool aid and as soon as Lloyd's got a sniff at paragliding actuarial data, it was so bad compared to hang gliding, they quickly dropped the entire shebang.
That's what happened
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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Craig Muhonen » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:49 am

How the words, ""Hang Gliding Masters", was Co-Opted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ6jbR8xSkA


Watch closely, then start watching at 0:41 thru 1:57. and especially 1:09 thru 1:30.! "they are a broken code, and they don't have it in them", while showing music videos of Master Hang Gliders. How dare they say that, but they are talking about themselves. 1:16 of pure Op-Ed, Co-Opt.

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Hello Dave, I have a friend who lives in Blane since we got out of high school, in 1964, a wooden boat builder.
In 1967 I got to spend 3 months on Whidbey Island, wow. I think I would have stayed, but the Marine Corps had a different idea. :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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Must be paradise.
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===========================================================================================================================================
I think that LLoyds of London would absolutely underwrite all "Air Frame Hang Gliders" again, like it did at the very start. Telluride Hang Gliding set the standard, a very high bar was set. IF enough push was made . a $ecret group should get it done, and then, "spring it like a trap". U$HPA hang gliders will flock to better insurance,
that's not U$HPA Insurance. they can have their Non-Profit, anything goes mind set.

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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Craig Muhonen » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:49 pm

=================================================================================================================================================
take out between, 0:39 and 1:54, and you have a perfect, Telluride "HANG GLIDING" video, with great music and art work.
(some of the hang glider pilots in this video now fly both Paragliders and Hang Gliders)

Dino Dinaso is talking, 1:10, (while showing a Hang Glider flying over Telluride) and saying, "They are missing a few lines of code, and people say don't do it, it's not a natural thing. and "These People, they don't have it in them".

John Heiney still has the best advice, "don't be a hamburger, and build a
solid foundation of fundamental maneuvers and practicing to Grow from".

The Aeronauts, & Hang Gliding Masters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ6jbR8xSkA

=============================================================================================================================================
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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Craig Muhonen » Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:35 pm

There are many many examples of "Hang Gliding" youtubers
inserting "paragliders".
Here is just one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgFSHyykeoI

===================================================================================================================


Dan Gryder is on to something, and has an excellent way to improve all
Aviation Youtube Videos and get quality vids out there. (including Hang Gliding hint hint) , called Aviation Content Creators and qm (quality metrics).
How many Hang Gliding Youtubers are out there? Maybe US HAWKS could be a good pallet for some for them.
Their videos could be the core of historical Hang Gliding, and a true "buffer" to, "paragliding co-opting Hang Gliding",
but more than that, "inspirational" training videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNC-RUDb21c


Aviation Content Creators, many many,
Hang Gliding Content Creators, few few,
why why?



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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Craig Muhonen » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:26 pm

It is so subtle, this is what HG is up against. HG is being edited out and stolen by “big money” PG media.
“So what”, you can pack a PG in a bag and hike, It’s just foo easy, that’s why so many “Lazy” people adopt this form of “gliding”. A high performance parachute is not a “Wing” or a “Hang”glider,

The practically non existing HG Media must come alive for it to survive.

CBS 8 News:

Watch this "Hang Gliding" video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHExOcI4ZB8 and at 0:05 it says, "what goes up doesn't have to come down" showing a PG taking off. Then at the end 2:52, showing PG's and saying, "oh, you can't beat the view".

A commenter noted:

blastman8888 wrote:You notice all those guys are 55-65 plus years old Hang gliding is hobby that is dyeing being replaced by paragliding and paramotoring. The one thing is hang gliders are not easy to transport have a big pole and parts wing has to be folded up. Paraglider can fold it all up into a backpack hitch a ride, or have uber pick them up.


This is what we’re fighting. It is so subtle.

Another co-opt is the word “free flying”, paragliding adopted this to include themselves with the aviation community. Free??, go add up all the money and time spent on "retrieving" these, "ozone warblers" as RM so aptly wrote, plus the funeral costs, not to mention the grief parents must feel because they must know how dangerous PG is, but said nothing when their, "child" asked to borrow thousands and thousands of dollars for a, High Performance Parachute.

How about just a “free spirited”, unafraid pilot, flying an air framed flex winged Hang Glider which was invented so long ago and still flying basically unchanged. They are that good.

KNSD-TV reports (http://bit.ly/152DUQ9):

Authorities don’t know if Ho intentionally launched or was accidentally lifted off the ground by the wind.
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has been told about the paragliding business involved in the fatal accident, and has been in contact with the business.


In another "news" article:

July 16, 2014 – David Norwood David Norwood (55), co-chairman of the USHPA Accident Reporting committee, a Master (P5) pilot and USHPA member since 2007, suffered fatal injuries during a flight at Chelan, WA. He launched a familiar site and suffered a thermic induced collapse, which he was unable to recover from. Fatal injuries resulted from a collision with the ground.

FREE FLYING (with my comments in red) wrote:I've received a sharp response to my previous post regarding paragliding safety prompted by the death of David Norwood, a highly-regarded flyer who crashed to his death at Chelan Butte on Wednesday.

Like all tragedies, the incident is causing some flyers to step back and re-evaluate. The discussion can only be healthy. But my previous post, in which I simply printed the personal perspective of Rick Masters of Owens Valley, California (who is now also publishing on substack.com) was not well received by some paragliders.

Masters contends that when choosing to fly paragliders or hang-gliders, one is a safer choice in iffy weather because of the frame that helps prevent canopy collapse. Masters suggests that frank discussions are hindered on chat rooms because paragliding sites often are controlled by people in the industry who don't want too much frank talk. But James Bradley of New York, the U.S. moderator on the worldwide online forum paraglidingforum.com, sharply disagrees. Here's his message:

Your acceptance of Rick Masters as an authority on paragliding, apparently without taking the time to learn anything about him, or talk to any people who are actually involved with the sport--we are all concerned about safety--is pretty disappointing.

I am one of a handful of US pilots who race on the Paragliding World Cup circuit. I am also the only US moderator on the worldwide online forum paraglidingforum.com (a volunteer position). Rick Masters was allowed to join there and post like anyone else. We learned that he is on an enduring anti-paragliding crusade. Like a religious zealot, he is not interested in facts or discussion unless they support his rigidly defined position. He behaved badly for some time on the forum and then we banned him, as we have a handful of other people over time.

Masters' disregard for facts is evident in his facile characterization of Paragliding Forum as populated mainly by people with a commercial interest in the sport. There are some of those of course but we have 30,000 registered members worldwide and an untold number who read without registering. The vast majority are simply enthusiasts in the sport. All light aircraft are dangerous. The accident and fatality statistics for hang gliding and paragliding over time are about the same. The most common accident types are different. Accidents come in clumps in all sports, probability predicts that. We are sadly in a clump of paragliding accidents in North America at the moment, (you mean since 1990?) much more than average. The last couple of years have been the other way, lighter (that's exactly why,.. PG's are just too damn light) than the average.


The USHPA's fatalities record (2013 to 2020 only recorded) is carefully edited to say "died while flying, and under investigation", but if you click on each fatality, you can go the actual news story which in most cases is uninformed and bias.


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Re: "Hang Gliding" being co-opted as Paragliding?

Postby Chris McKeon » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:29 pm

This tactic so as to insure safety, That is what it is, isn't it? If it really is indeed has been proposed as a means to keep Both Pilots who fly Paragliders and Pilots who fly Hang gliders safe. Then why has someone came up with this poorly conceived, non thought out Half Baked, Knee Jerk policy where Pilots Flying different types of Wings, each agree to only fly on alternative Days?

I mean come on! Why don't we simply ensure that Pilots, all Pilots basic "Right of Way Rules" Insure that Pilots do mundane things like looking around before they change direction. Here is a radical Idea; Why not insist that Pilots, ALL PILOTS clear their turns. This kind if lunacy is not limited to down there in Southern California. Up here in Northern California. We had a Mid-Air between a Paraglider and a Hang Glider. Where afterwards. The Paraglider wasa asked; Why did you take no action 0so as to avoid a Collision? The Paraglider Pilot said that when he was learning how to Fly His instructor said to not worry about having a Mid-Air. That Hang Gliders have so much more Performance and maneuverability. That not to concern themselves with the issue. That the HG Being in the position of having so Much More Performance and Maneuverability, the HG would avoid them. Talk about; The Blind leading the Blind.
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