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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:00 pm

When they started doing pitch testing on trucks...I wonder if anyone bothered to test any standard Rogallos (or John Lakes "Sailfeather"). Standards were pretty much phased out by then, but it might of resolved a few lingering questions.


This is a quote from Merlin back on April 4, 2012. I just ran across it.

Yes, I tested John Lake's Sailfeather and was so impressed that I made one (too cheap to pay $5 for his) for my Eipper Flexi Floater. It was on the glider at the recent 44th anniversary meet. May 23,2015 at Dockweiler Beach CA.

To test the concept built a 5' model of a "standard" Rogallo. Weight was added to the base tube of the control bar to ballast and set the CG. I also made a scale sized Sailfeather that I could attach and detach easily.

Without the Sailfeather: I made drops from my second story window into my back yard. With each drop I would release the model with decreasing angles to the ground. When the release angle got to a certain low point the model would go into full luff and dive straight to the ground. No sign of any pitch recovery action.

With the Sailfeather: Doing the same drops the angle could go vertical, into full luff, and the glider would still recover high enough above the ground to glide. Then I discovered I could even drop it at a negative angle and it would still rotate to a positive gliding angle. So in the latter case, the sail isn't just luffing, it is starting to invert and still rotates to a positive full sail.

I was convinced and after I made the one for my Eipper I never flew without it. It made the pitch much more docile at fast flying, low, angles. When Paul MacCready saw it on my Eipper Flexi Floater at the September, 2000, vintage HG meet at Dockweiler he told me he thought John Lake's Sailfeather was the single most important improvement ever made to the Rogallo type gliders.

Frank Colver

BTW - I think someday people will start flying "standards" again for sport fun flying when they can be made extremely light with newer materials. Image if you could run off a hill and fly with a 15 lb, large, airworthy, simple, glider. One with safe attitude recovery characteristics. Dreaming? Maybe.
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby ARP » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:46 am

Frank or Merlin,

"John Lake's Sailfeather" have you details please?

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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby BigBird » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:30 am

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:32 am

Few notes around:
Red: 2015:
SailFeathers were okay back in the day, with very long keels and long tailwires. Now, I think the rear cables are angled up too steeply to mount a SailFeather, unless there were some angled mounting plates that set the SailFeather angle to some reasonable value. I think it will make some extra drag, even if set to the correct angle. I'm not convinced that a modern glider needs one, if the luff lines and anti-dive sticks are set to the factory (owners' manual) settings.

====================
Skypix, 2007: We went through this in the early 70s with the full luff syndrome, where rogallos would stall, fall off on a wing, or in some other way enter a steep dive which was unrecoverable. Devices like the Sailfeather (a piece of fabric attached to the rear flying lower wires) was popular for awhile, for the same reason a tail could be today: it damped the forward pitch rotation by exerting a downward moment on the aft part of the airframe, i.e. a kind of crude up elevator.

=======================
Red: 2013:
His power is lightweight and adequate. The thrust line is fairly close to the center of mass. The props are well clear of the landscape. His dive recovery system does more with two luff lines than most gliders do with four. That tail assembly in the rear wires is comparable to the SailFeather, an early attempt at HG dive recovery. I might add some fixed washout tubes at the tips, because they aid in slip recovery as well as dive recovery, but I would bet he could Certify that design, as is.

=========================
Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:16 am Post
Cloudhopper:
The triangular piece was called a "sailfeather", and was attached to the rear wires to provide "up elevator" effect if the glider was to go into a full luff dive. Sort or the predecessor to luff lines and sprogs
.
===========================
ALTERNATIVES:
=Bowsprit-mounted pitch-control canard device [ See the various bowsprit topics in our forum for some images)] http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1666
=Lake's Sailfeather
=Firm washout using various means
=Operable horizontal stabilizer
=Firm reflex
=Reflex-holding upper wires
=High-hat fixed or variable
=Girard 1966 (clip attached)
=Reflexed sail and batten with guys
== Effinger 1962, clip provided hereon
= Colver tip inverted airfoil

== ... other?
Girard1966.JPG
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Girard1966Landgraf1966planview.JPG
Girard1966Landgraf1966planview.JPG (30.69 KiB) Viewed 6093 times

1962Effinger.JPG
Effinger 1962, clip provided hereon
1962Effinger.JPG (18.49 KiB) Viewed 6093 times

Image
Last edited by JoeF on Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby ARP » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:31 am

Thanks Joe, I see anti luff dive devices but what was the set up of "John Lake's Sailfeather" in particular?

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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:29 am

ARP,
Two aft flying wires formed a base to set a sail triangle at aft keel region; negative lift device.
I am having no success finding a photo showing the Lake SailFeather. Quick add to early standards.
OlneyNOTESinbook.JPG
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JpF wrote:Guestimate today:
Perhaps.jpg
Red sail device sketched. Aft two flying wires form base for the small sail. The W. Simon like triangle control frame or A-frame (1908) is sketched showing the attachment of the aft flying wires.
Perhaps.jpg (12.07 KiB) Viewed 6086 times


Consider such reefable; that is, have such rolled up; then when wanted: Pull a string through pulley at aft keel to open the coiled small sail. Employ when wanted. Or trigger full uncoil on urgent need.
PerhapsControlled.jpg
Two ways to have controllable feather?
PerhapsControlled.jpg (19.22 KiB) Viewed 6086 times


=======================================================
Notice the pitch control of some parachutes
Attachments
Parachute.JPG
Pitch-stable
Parachute.JPG (56.38 KiB) Viewed 6084 times
Last edited by JoeF on Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby ARP » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:47 am

OK Joe,

Similar device shown here on the Wasp powered hang glider with additional vertical surface up to the keel:@- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS9EysNsGGI

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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:02 am

From the ARP -found video on Sharon:

CharlesSharonSonKeith.JPG
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CharlesSharonSon.JPG
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Sharon's tail ! Nice.

Keith Sharon is talking in the video.
His dad: Charles Sharon

Low-mass.
Angle of flying wire could be altered to give attitude change of the inverted-vee sail. Inverted V-sail tail part is keeled by the vertical fin coming down from the keel tube.

Related 2012 post: http://davisstraub.com/OZ/16.148.2

==================================
CharlesSharonSon.JPG
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PerhapsJpF.jpg
PerhapsJpF.jpg (25.98 KiB) Viewed 6078 times
Last edited by JoeF on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby Frank Colver » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:35 am

I am having no success finding a photo showing the Lake SailFeather.


Gosh Joe, why didn't you ask? Didn't it occur to you, that if I used one I might be able to find a photo? ;) Actually, of all the photos I have of my Flexi Floater I do have very few that are good shots of the "feather".

Here is Dave Kilbourne flying my Flexi Floater at the 10th anniversary meet at Torrey, May 23, 1981. The photo is fuzzy because it is cropped from a distant shot, but the Sailfeather can be clearly seen on the rear wires (which don't show). It quickly clips on the wires which have a couple of stop sleeves crimped on to prevent it sliding back and the rear point of the Sailfeather is attached by a string. This allows the Sailfeather slack to be adjusted depending on how much up-pitch force is wanted. My Sailfeather was an exact copy of John Lake's design, so performance would be comparable.

Frank Colver

Dave Kilbourne, my Flexi at Torrey.jpg
Dave Kilbourne, my Flexi at Torrey.jpg (205.6 KiB) Viewed 6079 times


Here's another view edge-profile to the Sailfeather.

Dave Kilborne, my Flexi at torrey 2.jpg


I picked these photos, instead of static ground shots, because they show everything under flying loads. Besides it's nice to post shots of Dave in better times of his life.

About trim: I should have rigged the base tube farther forward after adding the Sailfeather. Notice how far forward Dave is in trim glide. I was quite a bit heavier than Dave but my trim position was still pretty far forward. That limited my ability to get the nose down quickly when I needed to. :o I almost stalled into Little Mountain CA because of that. I had my stomach against the base tube and my feet straight out on that occasion and on several others. I have no idea why I didn't re-rig the control bar. One of those stupid things that fortunately didn't kill me. It's still in that position today. :problem:

FC
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Re: Doug Carmichael Recalls May 23 1971

Postby JoeF » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:21 am

And on May 23, 2015, Frank Colver showed the SailFeather on his Flexi-Flyer:

Image

It appears Frank installed a leadng edge beam that is broader than the separation of the aft flying wires at the sailfeather L.E. station.
ColverSailFeatherMod.png
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Confirm, Frank???
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