[Rick Masters]

[Bob Kuczewski]

I don't agree with the statement ... but your execution was excellent.   

[wingspan33]

In many ways I agree with your point as made by your witty illustration, Rick.

I've also long agreed with your idea to create a national hang gliding only association - one that stands on equal ground with the U$hPa.

In order to get there we need to incorporate. A corporate board of directors can't be held liable for the actions of the corporation. Were the US Hawks to incorporate then what's decided and published here would not be Bob K's fault and liability. It could be seen as the corporation's liability, but what assets do the US Hawks have? Even if we began collecting a modest membership fee, that would probably only add up to one or two K. Chump change some people would call it.

But a registered (not for profit) corporation verses a mere web site? I think the corporation with an interactive leadership + membership web site would garner much more respect. Individual liability would also, essentially, go away. The increased respect would likely lead to increase membership and increased membership could create the opportunity to accomplish more good things for the sport of hang gliding.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I agree that we should incorporate. But that's not a guarantee of protection from lawsuits. One lawsuit and we could lose the entire corporation. What do you think USHPA would do with our 20,000+ posts if they were to take ownership of this site through a lawsuit?

That's right, every word we've ever written would be gone. History would be re-written. I'm not even sure if I could keep a back-up since they could claim it was now their "intellectual property".

Incorporation is good, but it doesn't give us a license to do anything illegal. If it did, organized crime would have incorporated long ago!!

[Rick Masters]

What do you think USHPA would do with our 20,000+ posts if they were to take ownership of this site through a lawsuit?

This is an example of self-intimidation, where an imaginary threat becomes real in the eye of the beholder and Hawks turn into Hawkstriches.

I think the corporation with an interactive leadership + membership web site would garner much more respect.

There will be zero respect until this is done.
The previous website will exist here http://web.archive.org/web/20161119132507/http://ushawks.org/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics as a record, regardless what anyone other than Bob does.
The corporate website will probably focus more on procedure.
It needs to be a real website, not a forum.
After the first vote for Directors, the landscape may change.
Like a bird that is set free, no one knows where it will go.
Hopefully, it will lay an egg.

[Bob Kuczewski]

There's a well-known phrase in hang gliding ...

    "Looks good ... you go first."

For all the people urging us (me?) to "just use" USHPA's copyrighted materials, I don't see anyone openly posting them anywhere with a claim that they're in the public domian.

That would be an easy way to resolve the matter, but I don't see anyone doing it.

[JoeF]

Their body text is not in public domain.
The physics of flying are in public domain.
The skills needed for safe and skilled hang glider operations are in the public domain.
The FARs are in public domain.
The freedom to compose our own phrases to express graduated skill demonstration and learning is a public right.

[Rick Masters]

It isn't necessary to write a manual before incorporating.

§ 103.7 Certification and registration.
...
(b) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to airman certification, operators of ultralight vehicles are not required to meet any aeronautical knowledge, age, or experience requirements to operate those vehicles or to have airman or medical certificates.

Just let the manual evolve as a digital project.
No copyright concerns.

[Rick Masters]

Someone is going to form a national hang gliding association.

[wingspan33]

Their body text is not in public domain. . .

With all due respect Joe, there are multiple legal arguments that actually place U$hPa's Rating System/Procedures into the public domain. One would be that the US Copyright Office informed me (and has information on their web site) that Systems and Procedures are not copyrightable. Another is the Merger Doctrine, which states that one entity can't claim ownership of something that, while somewhat different, is also a similar yet necessary for another entity to do business. If you look it up you'll find a better explanation than the one I just gave.

And if some entity does hold a (non-system/non-procedural) copyright on something, then Fair Use is allowed connected with teaching/educational purposes.

I would also mention that a good way to compare something that is copyrightable and something that isn't is to take a look at Peter Cheney's "Hang Gliding For The Beginner Pilot". I have a copy and compared to the U$hPa's Rating SYSTEM, Cheney's book exemplifies and demonstrates the difference between a creative work (able to be copyrighted) and one that is simply a described "system" and/or set of "procedures" (not legally copyrightable).

One thing I would mention is that what the U$hPa has called its corporate guidelines for doing business, it's Standard Operating PROCEDURES. So, it might be said that all the procedures that the U$hPa has published are (contrary to what that document indicates) not copyrightable - including the "Rating System" within that document.