[Rick Masters]

[Bob Kuczewski]

In my opinion, Warren's post is the best so far:

I have no affection for liars (and thieves) and do not believe they should be the people that write history.
Following strategy of the dissenters here allows liars (and thieves) to write their lying version of history.

That is exactly right.

Its doubtful Jack Axaopoulos was ever going to give a fair shake to Joe.
The chances were slim to none as Jack had to lie to justify his actions in the first place. Liars like that usually keep piling on deceptions to cover their tracks. If people are too concerned for political correctness, or whatever, to call out the lies, then the lies will probably stand as the neo-historical record.

That is also exactly right.

Its doubtful there was any hope of working behind the scenes to affect a different outcome.
Prove me wrong and I will argue to remove Jack from the wall of shame.
Otherwise, let the truth be told

That is also exactly right.

Some of you may not know, but I believe Warren might have a longer history with Jack and hanggliding.org than anyone else here. Maybe he can elaborate on some of that history.

[Rick Masters]

History will find that USHGA dilluted its focus and embraced failure.
History will find that Jack ruined his site with haughty manipulation and it cannot be trusted.
History will find that Davis turned off his forum and concealed it to search engines. It vanished.
History will find that US Hawks was transparent and honest, and that Joe Faust built a great history of hang gliding there.
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=22
Actions have consequences.
Have faith. Everything is okay.
Focus on the road ahead.

[magentabluesky]

The shinning post of this thread:

Bob, some pretty respectable pilots who are fed up with both the USHPA and hanggliding.org have asked me to request of you to focus on the important work that must be done.
They are tired of this endless confrontational battle with the established hang gliding heirarchy and they want to see pilots presented with the opportunity to join a new organization dedicated exclusively to recreational hang gliding. They want to see that hierarchy replaced, not confronted.
Piling negative upon negative complaints on "Hot Topics" can not create the attraction we need.
Building a "Wall of Shame" is the last thing we need. It will dissuade participation.
No matter how substantial these complaints are, a never-ending gripe site cannot promote, protect and serve recreational hang gliding.
In fact, those who should be concerned about an alternative organization drawing away pilots from USHPA are cheering every gripe post because these posts continue to erect an unattractive bulwark against ever accomplishing anything meaningful.
___________________

In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good.
So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans;
the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces;
the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
    -- Sun Tzu

Back in the mid 1980’s Rick Master’s formed the Cross-Country Hang Gliding Association in the Owens Valley. He actually had a brick and mortar building, a place for Hang Glider Pilots to gather. It was a place to share Hang Gliding information, instruction, walls covered with maps, a place to network, driver and retrieval plans, messaging exchange, search and rescue. He was providing services to the Hang Gliding community, and the people gathered. The doors were wide open and everyone was welcomed.

The very same came be said of Joe Faust in the early days of Hang Gliding when he took over “Low and Slow”. Joe was offering support, information, a communications network to support Hang Gliding. Joe’s heart was (and still is) open and warm to all who were interested in simple self soaring.

So what is the biggest Hang Gliding News Story today and I mean today? It is not on Jack’s site. Not a word has been spoken about it on Jack’s site, Nothing. What does that say about Jack’s site?

The biggest news story affecting the future of Hang Gliding today is “The USHPA BOD Reform Vote”.

If “The USHPA BOD Reform Vote” passes, there are going to be a lot of disgruntled Hang Gliding Pilots. Where is there an oasis for them? Where are the open arms of support? A warm friendly home for Hang Gliding?

I would venture to say that when Joe Faust was doing world record high jumps, Joe was not focusing on the competition setting the bar at four feet. Joe Faust’s focus was on clearing the bar for his personal best and that was so much higher than anyone else. Joe Faust continues to place the bar even higher in his life’s goals and delivers.

Stop setting the bar so damn low.

Focus on what matters most and deliver.

[Frank Colver]

Fantastic!!!!! Right on to both rick and MBS.

If Hawks becomes the bitch, bitch, bitch, forum only those who love to bitch will be here.

I got a phone call from a well known hang glider / paraglider pilot a couple of evenings ago and he said there a lot of PG pilots who are also completely dissatisfied with the strangle hold USHPA has on both sports. I think the momentum is building toward the formation of a new national org or perhaps two if we seperate HG and PG. With that momentum we can begin!

This org needs to start like the original USHGA started with a complete BOD and a phone / email contact and probably a Facebook account (I personally don;t do Facebook). The person who called me said he didn't think we could use forums anymore, to start a new organization. Also in order to even get a start Bob needs to be completely unassociated with it other than being a regular member, if he chooses. Bob, I love you, but you have poisoned the water and anything associated with you gets slammed before it can get born. Joe and I and others get shut out because we are your friends. Any new national org has to be independent of Bob and not have Bob's "fingerprints" on it so that its life can begin.

Believe me, from the bottom of my heart, it hurts to say that but it has become completely apparent to me.

Sorry Bob,
Frank

[Bob Kuczewski]

Frank if you want to step up to create a new organization, I will be happy to join it as soon as possible. Please let me know how long you think it will be until I can fly Torrey and Crestline and Sylmar and Funston as a member of your new association.

That's the most important part of my message, so if you read any further, please come back and read that again when you're done.

Here's what you're going to find with your new organization. You will quickly find (as Joe Faust has recently discovered) that all the "Bob blaming" is a smokescreen to hide the fact that a lot of people (Jack, Davis, USHPA, Torrey Concession, Soaring Council, etc) are desperately clinging to the power they have with the status quo. If you begin to be at all successful (as Joe's USHGRS has) you'll find yourself being shunned by Jack and Davis and USHPA as well.

You see, I've been through this before. In 2010, Joe Spinney became president of the Torrey Hawks with my endorsement. The Torrey Hawks had been requesting a seat on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council since 2007, and those existing Soaring Council members didn't want to add another club. Of course, they used the "Bob" excuse. Joe Spinney was trusting enough to believe them and he sent this letter to the Soaring Council on September 20th, 2010:

Hello Angelo and members of the Soaring Council,

My name is Joe Spinney and I'm a regular hang glider pilot at Torrey Pines. If you don't know me by name, you likely know me as the sole hang glider pilot zooming around among the sea of paragliders, usually in a bright orange wing.

I've been a member of the Torrey Hawks and recently became President with the hope that a different approach in leadership will yield different results. With that in mind, I'm requesting you add to tonight's agenda the topic of adding the Torrey Hawks to the Soaring Council. If the Hawks were added, then as President I would either attend myself or select a current member to represent the club. I can promise you that person will not be Bob Kuczewski.

I look forward to tonight's meeting.

Sincerely,
Joe Spinney

Yup, Joe Spinney threw me under the bus in the hopes of getting some traction with the Soaring Council. I didn't mind because if it worked, then we'd have a hang gliding seat on the Soaring Council. And if it didn't work then Joe Spinney would learn a lesson about finding people's real motives before throwing his friends under the bus.

Did it work?    Nope.

No one on the Soaring Council wanted to add any other clubs to dilute their own power. It wouldn't have mattered if I were 10 years in the grave. They didn't want any competition, period. Does that situation sound at all familiar?

Furthermore, what kind of people will you bring into your "Bob cannot be a Director" club that wouldn't join an "Any Member can be a Director" club? Do you really want those people? If you do, then stick with USHPA and the "doppleganger" sites because that's what you've already got.

Frank, I know you're mad at me right now because you know your name is likely to end up on this list for not continuing to speak up for Joe Faust. But if you're serious about starting a new organization, don't do it just to spite me. Do it because you want to do it very badly and you're willing to give it all the resources you have. We desperately need a new organization and not a half-assed flash in the pan. You'll need to be a lot more dedicated to this than you have been to getting Joe reinstated. Otherwise you're just diluting our efforts. So if you start a new organization I suggest you start it with a public pledge of the resources and level of effort you're going to give it.

Finally, in case you don't follow my original instructions, let me end where I started. If you want to step up to create a new organization, I will be happy to join it as soon as possible. Please let me know how long you think it will be until I can fly Torrey and Crestline and Sylmar and Funston as a member of your new association. A rough estimate will be fine.

Thanks.

[Bob Kuczewski]

History will find that USHGA dilluted its focus and embraced failure.
History will find that Jack ruined his site with haughty manipulation and it cannot be trusted.
History will find that Davis turned off his forum and concealed it to search engines. It vanished.
History will find that US Hawks was transparent and honest, and that Joe Faust built a great history of hang gliding there.
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=22
Actions have consequences.
Have faith. Everything is okay.
Focus on the road ahead.

Thanks Rick.

[Bill Cummings]

I'd like to hit the "REPORT" button on the Wall of Shame in banning of Joe Faust ---
Also Review:
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2035
I have only one post on this topic on the first page.
I agree with Frank about us bitching about other people will only turn people away.
I support Joe Faust completely but I had decided long ago that I was going to vote with
my feet, quietly back away, and never post at the hgdotorg again.
If my reference link above works I think we should follow the procedure already
discussed and move away from the Ad hominem posting.
Edit: the link doesn't work probably because it came from the Board of Directors Private Discussions,
or I forgot how to do a link.
I had scrubbed the SID information so maybe that is why the link doesn't work
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2035
Second Edit: Actually it was from Issues before the board of directors:

Freedom of expression on the Hawks forum
by Frank Colver » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Be Polite!!

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:10 pm
This soap box area is meant to be a free speech zone, but try not to post anything that will reflect poorly on the US Hawks.

Thanks.

[Rick Masters]

Frank, this forum is proof that BobK has done more than anyone in hang gliding to stand against the USHPA and get the ball rolling to form an alternative national hang gliding association.
I don't know where things will go from here, but I have a lot of respect for BobK for doing that.
He does, after all, have a history of mistreatment at the hands of the USHPA and we need to account for that.
None of us are perfect and at times we are bound to piss each other off. Let's not get carried away.
I am not willing to dismiss out of hand BobK's future contributions to this effort, despite the fact that I disagree with him on this topic.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks Rick.

Thanks also to Bill for reminding us that we do have a process for posts or topics that have been flagged by a member of the U.S. Hawks. Bill has flagged this topic so the Board should discuss it and decide what actions to take. I believe our active Board members include Bill, Frank, Scott, Sam, Rick, and myself. Maybe this is a good opportunity for us to demonstrate our adherence to our own rules.

I salute Bill 1,000,000 times for his levelheadedness. I'll spare your browsers all the icons , but if you close your eyes you can imagine all 1,000,000 of them saluting Bill Cummings.

For the record, this is the motion that we passed:

Let me try to repeat what I've read to see if I'm understanding everyones's thoughts.

I think Bill has suggested that when a member flags a post, the Board should vote whether the post is or is not off topic or inappropriate. I think Joe agreed with that procedure. I agree as well. Joe suggested that 3 of 5 votes would carry the motion to remove a post. I would prefer that the threshold for declaring something as "off topic" be a bit higher (maybe 4 out of 5 or unanimous by those voting within a predefined time period). But setting that threshold is certainly something we can decide with a vote.

Bill's preferred method of dealing with off topic posts is to move them to the Off Topic forum leaving a link that will fade with time. I tend to agree with that as well. Joe has suggested mailing the off-topic post to the person making the post. I think that's a nice point. When a person posts something - even if we don't think it's appropriate - it shouldn't just vanish. The person who wrote it might not have retained a copy and might want to save it or post it somewhere else. I think giving people a copy of anything that's removed is very important and consistent with our goals of being better than other organizations. Yet that's something I wouldn't have thought of, and that's why it's so great to have participating Board members. Thanks Joe.

Along those lines (and from a technical standpoint) it turns out that it's easy to move posts from one forum to another while preserving the author and the date. So I can move an offending post (or topic) to a "storage" area where it's not visible to the normal users of the forum. I can also restore those posts (or topics) by simply moving them back to their original location and they go right back as if they'd never been moved. This is important because we value our history, and it also allows us to take an "emergency" action to remove posts right away and then vote on them later. That addresses Joe's concern for archiving. Posts in the storage area are archived just like all the other posts on the forum - they're just not visible.

For the record, my original list wasn't intended to capture every case, so if there are other ideas, please feel free to bring them forward.

  Having said all that, I'd like to second Bill's first suggestion that when a topic (or post) is flagged, the Board will vote to decide if that topic (or post) is in fact off topic or inappropriate.  

Since Bill's first motion (nomination) now has at least 1 or 2 "seconds", let's vote on that first.

I vote   YES   .