Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 1:17 UTC
Post subject: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Mods note: The first few posts here have been split from the Fatal Crash at Torrey Pines thread. Please post to the appropriate thread.


I was a USHPA Regional Director when I witnessed a young student pilot flying out of control on a landing at Torrey near the hang glider setup area. The student clipped a top wire on one hang glider and bent a washout strut on another before finally coming to rest between a few other hang gliders. He was very lucky that he wasn't impaled on a king post.

I waited a little while for everything to settle down (and the pilot to regain his composure) before I walked up, introduced myself, and asked the student who his instructor was. The words were barely out of my mouth when one of the Torrey instructors (Brad Geary) ran up telling the pilot not to say anything to me - a USHPA Regional Director. The young student pilot was obviously caught in the middle and I could see that he was really stressed, so I backed down from asking any more questions.

Of course, it later turned out that the student pilot was Brad Geary's brother and was flying without any rating or even a USHPA membership under Brad Geary's "supervision". I reported the incident to USHPA, not because of the accident, but because USHPA instructors shouldn't be telling USHPA students not to divulge who's training them when asked by USHPA Directors. No action was ever taken, and I never saw any report of the incident.

I don't think there's much to "cover up" in this case, and so I suspect that the report may be as accurate as they can produce. But the Torrey concession has a long history of covering up all sorts of events, and I think that's part of the ongoing problems at that site.

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 14:46 UTC
Post subject: Sad

So pathetic that Bob is using this as an opportunity to push his hate for Torrey. This was an unfortunate event and not the fault of anybody at Torrey.

FYI- Bob was the first director in USHPA history to be recalled and stripped of his position.

Rest in peace Pam.

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:20 UTC
Post subject: Re: Sad


Jonie, you are intentionally confusing a flying site (Torrey) with the current concessionaire that runs it (Robin/Jeremy/Jebb?). This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty that characterizes so many of the "insiders" at that site.

It's ridiculous to say that I have "hate for Torrey". You say that because you want to confuse people into thinking that I'm somehow against the flying site known as "Torrey" - which is totally false. I fly either my PG or HG there several times a week (take a look at my avatar right in front of you). So you're lying to people to say that I "hate" Torrey. If you want to see how much I "hate" Torrey, please check out the photos from my flight there just yesterday ( http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1045 ). Does that look like someone who "hates" Torrey?


Well, I guess you can save Jeremy the trouble of an investigation since you already know the outcome. Do you know who trained her? Could it be the folks operating the Torrey concession?


More intellectual dishonesty. I defeated David Jebb with more votes than any other Director in the entire country. That's a fact. And I actually got MORE votes during the recall election than when I originally defeated Jebb. So while you want to portray this as an embarrassment for me, the truth is that there are a very large number of pilots (maybe 40% of our Region?) who voted to keep me as their Director and who supported my reforms at Torrey. I guess those pilots (probably mostly HG pilots) don't count to you. Furthermore, I'll bet that I'd have done even better if you and the other Jebb lovers weren't spreading lies through your password-protected private site where I couldn't post any replies to your smears. For you to say I was "stripped of my position" rather than I "lost an election" is another example of your dishonesty. Is every Director who loses an election "stripped of their position"? Shameful Jonie.


On this, we agree. But I'll bet Pam will rest a lot better if we investigate what really happened and not cover it up for the sake of what you call "Torrey".

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 16:13 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


Unfortunately, the two are intertwined because the Torrey staff will be writing the report. They have an obvious conflict of interest in any incidents at that site, and their reports must always be viewed in that context.

I would personally like to see an investigation by the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board which includes representatives from all of the flight disciplines that fly at the site. Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen. As a second choice, I'd like to see an investigation by the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen either. But even if it did, many of the Soaring Council representatives have been 'bought off" by favors from the concessionaire, and any critical clubs (like the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club) have been kept off of the Soaring Council by the existing members. So the Council's report would be less objective than the Advisory Board's.

I'm sorry to say that the reporting and investigating of incidents at Torrey is one of the ongoing problems at that site. And unfortunately, it is exactly this "political situation" which makes it hard to learn objective lessons from such tragic deaths. That's a tragedy on top of a tragedy because it cripples our ability to learn the objective truth from these incidents and prevent their recurrence.

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 21:42 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


Ease up Bob,
You're making it sound as if Torrey Pines Soaring Council cover up stuff. Such as glider port is sitting a fault line and the tremors are causing shock waves through the atmosphere which could cause a catastrophic collapse while you're flying or UFO's are vectored over Torrey on their way to Area 51 causing wake.
They don't.....do they

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 16:42 UTC
Post subject: Thanks

Mods note: this post was moved from the thread about the fatality because a "call for the establishment of a more independent means of investigation" is not specific to that incident and thus belongs in this thread.

Thanks for splitting the topic. People need a place to express their sorrow and they also need a place to find out how we can learn from this ... and keep it from happening again (the new topic).

However, since this topic still contains Steve's post stating ...


... then I would like this topic to also reflect my previously stated (and now removed) concern that the Torrey concessionaire has a conflict of interest in investigating all incidents at that site. I would like the topic to also reflect my call for the establishment of a more independent means of investigation - either through the Torrey Pines Soaring Council or the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board.

Thanks.

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 17:16 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Bob,

Now that the topic is split I will make a comment.

You have indicated that Torrey has a conflict of interest regarding the reporting of an accident at the site they manage and I certainly don't dispute that. However, many organizations have conflicts of interests but that does not automatically mean that they act unethically. It just means that they have an interest in the outcome of whatever the conflict relates to.

An organization with a conflict of interest can provide a balanced report on a situation. What is important is that the conflict of interest be disclosed and recognized by those that will be reviewing the report so that they can employ their own judgment.

I suggest that we wait to review the report before pointing accusing fingers.

As an aside, I don't know what your history with Torrey is so I am unable to judge if your very obvious animosity is warranted.

Paul

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 18:04 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Hi Paul,

For the record, I'm glad the topic was split. Both discussions are important and they deserve their own space.

With regard to this incident, I currently believe that the two spikes in the diagrams were the major contributing factor. There may be other issues related to the Torrey concession (like what kind of training she got, whether that wing was sold to her above her abilities, etc), but I don't anticipate that there will be any "smoking gun" implicating the concession in any serious wrongdoing.

However, that's just in THIS case. There have been other cases where it's very very clear that we need to have an independent body to review those incidents. For example, there was a relatively recent incident where two students collided - both presumably on the radio with the concession's instructors. I've never seen an investigation of that incident, and I am not aware of any action taken. The incident that I mentioned above (where Brad Geary was flying an unrated PG student - his brother - who crashed into the hang glider setup area) was another example where an independent review was desperately needed.

Now if the concessionaire were the only entity available for doing this, then we might have to accept the conflict of interest and try to mitigate it. But this role should fall to either the Torrey Pines Soaring Council or the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board. Both of those entities contain multi-disciplinary members and both are supposed to be representative of the flying communities at that site.


You are correct in this. You cannot deduce ethics from a conflict of interest. If my posts anticipate an ethics problem (which they do), that comes from 8 years of experience with that concession and not from the conflict of interest itself. But the conflict of interest alone is enough to ask for an independent investigation of all incidents. Indeed, if I were running the concession, I'd be requesting an independent investigation from the Soaring Council or Advisory Board to eliminate even the appearance of impropriety in my operation.

So while I don't know if an independent investigation by someone without a conflict of interest would reveal any additional information in this particular case, I do believe that is the standard to which we should aspire and work toward ... in all cases.


First, please don't confuse the name "Torrey" (a beautiful flying site) with "Air California Adventure" (David Jebb's concession). The concession likes to call themselves "Torrey" because it associates them with something positive. They are a business and not a flying site. That's why I'm generally careful to use terms like "concession" or "concessionaire" when referring to the business.

With regard to the animosity, I could give you a long history of abuses, but I think you might get a better sense of what's going on by reading posts by people like Jonie Millhouse. There's a gang-like clique there at Torrey, and they are the attack dogs for the concessionaire. Some are more subtle (like Steve Rohrbaugh), and others are more obvious (like Jonie). But they're all the pawns of the concessionaire. I suspect most of them (like Steve?) think they're defending "Torrey" (the flying site) because they've been told crazy thinks like "Bob Kuczewski is trying to close Torrey". That's why it's important to understand the difference between a beautiful flying site and a corrupt concessionaire.

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 18:10 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Let's just end this divisive debate over the aspect of Torrey Pines Politics and conclude that you are all pussies for flying Torrey Pines. Go find a thermal

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 23:38 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Torrey Pawn? Now that is almost comic and funny.
Robin and ½ of the staff do not know my name to face. Those on the staff only know me if they if they get out into to mountains or if they remember me as a past SDHGPA club president. It is either all or nothing with Bob. I have told Bob on more than one occasion, that some of his ideas are and have been good, and I agree with some of them, but his methods are what I do not agree with.

Patrick, I could not agree with you more.

Try this one on for size: http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/595781 Or this one: http://www.paraglidingforum.com/leonardo/flight/595781
Or any other of my typical flights on any given weekend.

The thing is, the more you fly XC and/or the more you work for site preservation, the more you realize that all of our sites are interconnected.

I have made intersecting Paragliding XC flight paths from almost each of our Sothern California sites when laid on top of each other: Little Black, Blossom, Horse, Laguna, Big Black, Palomar, the “E” / Elsinore, Winchester Bowl, Saboba, Mt Thomas, Vista Point, Marshal/ Crestline, Ord, and Black Hawk. On top of that, two HG pilots (Glen Volk and Mike Tryon) have flown from Horse to Laguna and on to Torrey. So yes, they are all connected from an XC point of view.

They are also connected from a site preservation point of view in dealing with the land owners and agencies that have the last say in whether we can use a launch and or landing site.

One of the hardest things to do is active relations building and working positively with the Land Owners and Agencies to build trust and have them allow us to use their land and to assure them that they are covered from a liability perspective if doing so. This is especially tough in the US and even more so in CA.

So why does an XC pilot that that has no connection to the Torrey site business what so ever, one that has been critical of operations there in the past, one that rarely flies there and calls it Boring Pines, one that can fly from almost any were to anywhere and just set the SoCal XC PG record of 89.8 miles care about what happens at Torrey?

Well, what happens at Torrey can and will directly affect our other flying sites that we fly XC out of.

The City of San Diego has a direct influence not only over Torrey, but also Little Black, Big Black and Blossom. The City Parks for Torrey and Little Black Open space. The City Water authority for Little Black and Big Black. City and County Parks for Blossom (old park LZ and future open space park).

I have a vested interest in that I want to keep all of our flying sites open and many in our community have put in many hours of their time in proactive positive ways.

It took us 14 years of actively pursuing and working within the political system and groups to get Little Black established as a legal Flight Park. That site was almost lost 10 years ago.

Big Black was lost and shut down due to the City Water authority and environmental activist fighting a water dam in the valley. It took us 15 years to regain the ability to fly there in working with the National Forest.

It took us 15 years for the ability to fly Palomar again, but most recently the Palomar LZ has been lost due to land owner apprehension.

Laguna landing options on our typical XC routes have always been and continue to be on the sensitive side requiring continued and active relations building.



I have told Bob on more than one occasion that some of his ideas are and have been good and I agree with some of them, but his methods are what I do not agree with.

I do not have a problem with having the Soaring Council review incidences and to help review and set site rules and policies. In fact it is a good idea, as that is what it was set up to do, and they will probably do that as normal part of business. If Bob took ½ of his energies and just tried to create a positive working relationship vs creating and inciting an adversarial one and did not take differing points of view as personal attacks, he and all of us would be better off.

What I do have a problem with is having an individual in our community being aggravative, ranting and trying to incite reactions and create issues through guerrilla monkey wrenching tactics in the public eye, taking things out of context and word entrapment, and or pushing cameras in people’s faces can easily tear down the trust and relations in a single afternoon that may have taken years to build and establish. One individual from this standpoint has done more damage than good to all of our flying sites when taking things up with the City and crating public disturbances in the past. It now looks like this individual has started at it again.

I have helped deal with sensitive and hard to deal with tragic accidents like this in the past when encountered at two of our other sites when I was club President. It is not an easy process. I saw where this was going and felt a need to step in and help keep things remain respectful and on topic. The last thing we need is a false which hunt in the public eye. Call it what you like, but I really do not think that is being a pawn.

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 0:54 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Bob,

I am responding here to the post you made on the other thread.


I am being trained by Torrey and am close to finishing my P3. Not surprisingly, most of my instruction has been at the Torrey site. However, the instructors have often taken students to Mountain sites to continue training there. I haven't made them all but I have been on radio with the instructors several times at Blossum and also at Laguna. In addition, we were encouraged to take an SIV course which I have done. Of note, I saw that although Pam was flying an advanced wing she had not done an SIV course. That certainly is not the fault of the instructor, taking an SIV is a personal decision and I have met longtime pilots who have not done one. Finally, we have discussed weather, thermals and other topics with our instructors.

I don't have another school to compare the Torrey school to so I can't say for sure how high or low the quality is. However, I can attest to the fact that I have received mountain/rough air training. Of course, if I was training in Utah I suspect I would have received much more mountain training but less cliff soaring experience.

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 17:55 UTC
Post subject: Responding to Paul and Steve


I got all of my training (up through my P3) in the mountains. My pre-P3 sites include Little Black, Horse, Marshall, and Otay. In fact, I didn't fly Torrey until after I got my P3. I got my P3 through Rob in Crestline, and he required 50% collapses at altitude (2 on each side) as part of his P3 requirement. He required that we be able to hold the canopy on a heading throughout the 50% collapses. I can only hope that the Torrey P3 pilots are getting that kind of training.


If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck ...

Steve, you've been kissing the posteriors at Torrey from Jebb through Robin. All of your posts here have been defending them. I don't know if you're defending them on some general principle of standing behind the "flying establishment" or if you've been misled by your peers, or if you have some other personal/financial motive. But whatever your motivation, the only observable coming from you for 6 years now has been "quack quack".

Steve, let's cut to the chase. I've stood for these principles at Torrey:

1. Review of incidents by an unbiased committee.
2. Participation by pilot community in making rules.
3. Fair review of pilots banned from the site.
4. Resolution of disputes by a jury of our peers.

You've given "lip service" to those principles, but you haven't done a damn thing to actually uphold them. Now if you want to make a public commitment to work toward implementing any of those - and follow through right here on this forum, then you'll get my respect. Until then, you're just another butt-kisser saying "quack quack".

Steve, most of your post is either telling us how great you are (how much XC time you have, how many routes you've flown, how hard you've worked, blah blah blah) or making unsubstantiated innuendos directed at me. Neither are helpful to solving the problems at Torrey and I won't address them other than to say that your innuendos are false and misleading. But you did make one comment worthy of a response:


If some of my ideas are good, then why haven't you lifted a finger to implement any of them? You were the SDHGPA president during many of the Torrey problems, and you did nothing. If you don't like my "methods", then what has stopped you from using your own "methods" to implement those good ideas?

Steve, your words are not aligned with your actions. If you're serious about fixing problems at Torrey, then just say that right here on this forum and I'll be more than happy to work with you. Otherwise, you're just another arm of the Torrey concession running interference for them. "Quack, quack."

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 19:08 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

You know what.........Its now understandable why there is such a blame culture in the USA, if this is the attitude of supposed Adults.......to bitch and whine and say how they defeated such and such and blah blah blah.....
SHUT UP!!!!!

Yes we know safety is paramount in our sport and we know knowledge is power......especially when it comes to flying, more knowledge should make safer flying but as we know human error can always stop safe flying.
and we cannot always predict what the wind is doing or going to do......

but to keep on whinging is just crap and boring........get out and fly.......be safe.....enjoy, stop whinging!!

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 19:22 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Hi all,

This is mostly directed to Bob K but I would also ask other US PG'ers the same question:

Is this amount of in-fighting in a public forum going to make it more or less likely that sites will be opened up as opposed to closed down?

Is this sort of public vitriol good or bad for the sport in general?

Does it worry you that a landowner will see free flying as a lot of hassle on their land to be avoided?

Is the National Association prepared to adjudicate or provide some sort of conciliation service?*


Training should be to the National rating system, it should not be down to the individuals to decide what the standard is. The minimum standard should be set by the USHPA rating scheme, and all instructors should be getting to that level. Are you saying that the ratings are being set locally by individual instructors?

IMV in-fighting in public is bad for keeping sites open in the long term. The last thing you need is for public bodies to see you as a PITA.

Footnotes:

*I realise this might not be an option.....
_________________
SteveU "Never more to sing again, the Forty Shades Of Green."

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 20:37 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

I also think that Bob's anger at "lack of training" should be directed at USHPA standards, not Torrey. Please review P3 USHPA requirements here http://www.circlinghawk.com/p3ushga.html

I have earned my P1-P3 there during 2009-2010 and can only say that Brad and Max have went above and beyond of what can be asked from an instructor for their students. Torrey is a coastal site so naturally most graduates fill their required hours with ridge soaring. Never the less they organized trips to local mountain sites for anyone able and willing to get thermal experience. Mind you they did this on their own dime and time, and often did not even get a chance fly themselves, coaching on the radio, lecturing, and monitoring launches and landings. SIV courses that they offer are frequent and flexible. There were no "bro" rating handouts, I only received my papers when they were satisfied with my actual flying, not the official minimum requirements. The adherence to the site rules and safety was strict, I was chewed out and grounded more than once for unsafe gear or my wannabe acro pilot behavior. Even after my official training period they remained helpful and contributed to my progression.
Torrey is hands-in-your pockets, go-around carousel, pretty ridge site. If the pilot does not make an effort to progress and learn beyond the bare minimum despite all the available resources that is their own fault.

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 21:46 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


I share Steve's concern, while this should be a forum where all views are expressed and debated, we would all be better off if we did without the name calling and vitriol.

Bob, I can't comment on the legitimacy regarding your obvious anger and disgust with the TPG crew. However, do you really believe that you will convince someone to cooperate with you by calling them an a** kisser? That approach to debate is not constructive and while I recognize you are frustrated, I really believe you will persuade more of us to consider your ideas if you tone it down a bunch.

As others have said, you provided helpful analysis of the recent tragic accident and made good points regarding actions that might be considered. However, your contribution runs the risk of being overshadowed by the way you deliver it.

This is just my humble opinion.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 17:01 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


There's obviously a lot of history at Torrey that's not easily expressed in this topic. People have been bullied, and banned, and generally mistreated at Torrey for a long long time. Maybe you didn't know Lyne Perry, but she took her own life in 2011 (after I had been recalled as Regional Director by the "in crowd" at Torrey). Here's a letter that she had written to me prior to that (when I was Director and while I was trying to right the wrongs at Torrey). In this letter, she's responding to my request to feature her site preservation work in a newsletter I was preparing at that time:


Imagine coming to a beautiful sport like paragliding and finding the kinds of bullying and abuse that would cause her to disengage from the sport. Imagine turning to flight as something to uplift your soul and finding the kinds of "vicious verbal assaults" and bullying that she reflected in this letter. Read where she wrote that the bullying by David and Gabe Jebb was so common that she accepted it because "they bullied most everyone". Tragic. And what hurt her the most was other pilots (like many of you reading this post) who "just stood by and let it happen".

Steve Rohrbaugh was president of the SDHGPA (and/or part of the "in crowd") during this period and he did nothing ... nothing. Just like so many others, he "just stood by and let it happen". Now Lyne is dead.

Unfortunately, Lyne is just one example of many people who've been abused at that site. So if I seem a little angry after seeing 7 years of hell at Torrey, then maybe you should walk in my shoes for a bit before casting stones.

More importantly (and to the point) you might consider asking Steve why he won't publicly support the 4 simple items I've put forth above:

1. Review of incidents by an unbiased committee.
2. Participation by pilot community in making rules.
3. Fair review of pilots banned from the site.
4. Resolution of disputes by a jury of our peers.

Where are you Steve? Why won't you stand behind these 4 simple steps to make Torrey a better and safer site?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 17:54 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

As a newbie pilot in San Diego I never understood what all the commotion was about between hangies and paras. I was puzzled by snarky remarks from HGs when I would offer to carry some of their gear up from the beach when we all would get flushed.
I found it strange that Lyne would shy away from us and refuse rides at Blossom.
Now it makes sense:
"...Gliderport generates a huge number of new pilots (mostly paraglider pilots) in the San Diego area, and that means new members for USHPA. Many of these new pilots are infused with the same gang-like attitude that permeates the concession, and they end up being bullies..." - Bob K., US Hawks
I have not met a single new pilot that fits this description during my 2 years of almost daily training and flying there. For the lack of a better word, you sir, are full of sh!t. You instill mistrust, hatred, and division based on misinformation and lies among a group of people that would otherwise happily coexist, cooperate, and have fun together.
Do you discuss strategies with Rick Masters?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 18:54 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

I have never flown in the States, therfore never been to Torrey.

However what I read seems to be something which goes against the ethos of Air Sports PG or HG.

Bullying of anykind is deplorable, the fact that it sounds like there is a "Mafia" style movement at Torrey sounds absolutly infuriating.

Flying sites should have rules........it helps us all enjoy doing what we love doing.....FLYING!!!

People may need educating.....if they are low airtime pilots (help and guidance)......if they are doing acro in the middle of the stack (educating stongly! ).......if they persevere to break the rules knowingly, grounding/banning may be the last option.

People......DO NOT NEED BULLYING!!!!! Mafia style ruling of a site and bullying should be stamped out.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 20:32 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Wow, this is really sad and makes me sick. To stoop to such a level of even implying Lyne’s troubles, stability, and tragic demise were only directly related to and driven by some individuals in our flying community.

At the same time I am really continued to be surprised that Bob is painting the picture of such vindictive divisiveness in our community, when the community is anything but, largely positive and supportive of one another. With the exception of his propaganda.

I do not think Bob really knew Lyne personally and knew her conditions and life complications. I would have to say that our flying community was an overall positive and supportive impact on her life. Unfortunately her conditions lead to her isolating herself from the world at large in all of her interactions professionally socially and family life. It was members of our community and her passion for flying that would bring her out.

Shock factor and inciting reactions is not the way to build relations, only the opposite.

Sure, who has not been yelled at from the ground for flying through the window or doing over the top wingovers at Torrey. Those guys even reprimand themselves . . . I used to not enjoy flying there all that much due to that and the high visibility circus. We all fly for the good time and enjoyment; Right? The good news is that they have toned it way down from years in the past.

I think Bob’s 4 points have been supported and addressed more than once and actually happens.

When individuals repeatedly deliberately and blatantly break rules just to challenge the system even after they have been given “get out of jail” cards on multiple occasions by a jury of their peers; one has to wonder . . . what is up ???

It is very obvious that Bob for some reason feels that he personally needs to be on his own jury of peers, be his own representative on the TP Soaring Council, make not only site rules but concession business policy and will not stop at anything till he achieves that. Even if it means tearing everything down, even things not related to the concession operation.

The problem is, each meeting Bob shows up at any level becomes totally dysfunctional and drawn out to be 4 x + the time commitment and his methods have made no one want to work with him. Please, Bob just tone it down, try to work with people and don’t take this or differing views as a personal attack.

Note that the TP Soaring Council, SDHGPA, USHPA, or other clubs like the Hawks if created have no influence over the business policy of the concession.


On the note of Lyne and flying in general:

To have a good day of flying, one has to me mentally prepared and have a positive outlook on the day. If not, one should not consider flying that day.

Some Pilots will socialize and get excited before a flight, some others need to limit outside stimulus to get into a positive “A game” zone. I see this as entirely normal. Different pilots have different ways of getting into that zone before flight. Many pilots and top competitive athletes will start to limit their interactions in order to get into that zone and try to stay in a positive mind set.

The San Diego Mountain Hang pilots and XC PG pilots tend to be more serious before flights. So I see it as normal behavior for Lyne and especially with her conditions to try and limit interactions or before flight.

I think you are taking things out of context. Lyne and Josh had a heated passionate debate that went both ways regarding some actions she took for the betterment of a site, but that she had not gotten prior approvals for. I can go into more details but not on the forum. Yes, they were friends, but stopped speaking for a period of time.
Let’s leave it at that and not imply otherwise. Talk with Wes or Larry S her best PG friends that supported and looked in after her and that she most trusted if you have any questions.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 21:40 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

For the record -- primarily for those in other parts of the world that may be getting a distorted view of Torrey from these posts -- after flying at Torrey for a year I have not run into any significant interpersonal problems at the site. Quite the contrary, most people I interact with have been friendly and helpful, including the concessionaire staff.

That is not to say that I haven't been chewed out for not following the rules but I don't see that as a problem. This is a sport where not following the rules can be deadly so I view a bit of chewing out to be appropriate. In fact, on an SIV with the Torrey crew, I vividly recall being chewed out by Gabe for getting into my harness too soon a couple of times on a tow. That is a good thing, next time I tow I won't forget.

I can't speak for everyone, Torrey is a very active site and I am sure it has its share of problems. However, I certainly have not observed a culture of abuse as has perhaps been implied.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 21:42 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

To what extent do San Diego Mountian HG XC Pilots become more serious befroe flights.

TBH I just get out and fly, I dont have to psych myself up to fly........it comes naturally!! If im not concentrated I dont fly long but have some walking to do to get back to launch.

I do think that word like Defeat are very strong and confrontational and dont need to be utilised unless wanting an adverse reaction, but then the American culture is brought up on competetivness and pushing at every opportunity.......I watch some of those American TV programmes that get exported. Gotta laugh......you got some fat kids over there!!!!!

Any way bored of this topic now. BOB PLEASE DONT EMAIL ME ANYMORE, IM NOT SUPPORTING YOUR OR ANY OTHER TORREY PINES WHINGING!!!!!

IM FED UP OF THE BLAME CULTURE THAT HAS RUBBED OFF ONTO OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD!!!!!

GET A GRIP GO FLY, GO ENJOY!!

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 21:58 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


I was in French Polynesia a few years ago on a small island where just one home had a TV. People gathered outside in the evenings to look in through the windows and watch.... reruns of Dallas and Falcon Crest. To my horror they believed these programs showed real life in the US.

Please, no one should take exported television shows as representative or characteristic.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 22:07 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


Ok you are German like me and probably part Vulcan Wink . . . . A game comes naturally

Just a different scene and just a mellower group. That generally comes from more experience than the typical site flyers. No psyching up or anything like that, just more focus on the day the weather and prepping for flying. Not that they do not socialize or have fun, just more though prep work in setting up gliders and equipment.

Some of the lesser experienced PG groups, depending on the circles can be slightly excitable and just have some nerves energy going on or like to socialize a lot more before.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 22:31 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


Like most of us, I've never been to Torrey, but its reputation precedes it. What I've heard is that there more rules than pilots. Well, I exaggerate, but you get the drift. When pilots are shouted at because they've done over the top wingovers (what other kind is there?), there's something wrong with the place. Its a coastal site, FFS, not the Owens Valley in July at 2pm. I understand that beginner PG pilots are allowed there, but experienced HG pilots are not, hence the animosity. Is this true?

Maybe you guys should relax a few rules; it might actually make the place safer.
_________________
Regards Dave

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 22:35 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

During my time acro was ok as long as it was done by experienced pilots away from launch and student areas.
Beginner pilots are allowed to fly only under radio supervision and within sight of an instructor, again only in student areas.

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 0:32 UTC
Post subject: Relevancy

Guys - re-read James' post just above. It is entirely relevant.

You are all getting an insight into this situation that is as accurate as mushy fictional television.

Don't get too worked up about it.

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:00 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

James Bradley wrote:
look in through the windows and watch.... reruns of Dallas and Falcon Crest. To my horror they believed these programs showed real life in the US.

Real life is most probably more like a marathon of Jerry Springer shows. No?

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 18:10 UTC
Post subject: Response to Steve Rohrbaugh


What should make you sad ... and sick, Steve, is to hear the anguish in Lyne's letter. Here it is again in her own words:


Steve, you should read that letter about 100 times and with each reading imagine her about to put a gun to her head and end her life. Then ask yourself what you could have - and should have - done as President of the SDHGPA to fix it. That's what should make you sick.

I've said before that I suspect the bullying from the San Diego PG community wasn't necessarily the primary reason for Lyne's suicide. But she had turned to this sport for a joy in her life and she only found bullying and verbal abuse (her own words). If she were the only person to ever report this kind of abuse, then maybe you could put your head in the sand and blame it on her own shortcomings. But there have been many people who have reported the same kinds of mistreatment by the Torrey crowd and yet you've continued to pretend it doesn't happen. That's something you'll have to live with the rest of your life Steve. You could honor Lyne by recognizing the ongoing problems and work to fix them (as I have) or you can go on your happy way defending the Torrey crowd as you've done so far on this forum.


I am just publishing Lyne's own words to me Steve. Read them another 100 times and maybe you'll realize that this isn't "about Bob". This is about fixing a bullying situation that existed long before I came along. It existed under your watch and it grew under your leadership. Now it's become a festering sore in the flying community and I think you should stand up and join with me in fixing it. That's my challenge to you (although I doubt you'll take it).



You're either ignorant or outright lying in that statement Steve. None of these 4 points are happening at this time:

1. Review of incidents by an unbiased committee.
2. Participation by pilot community in making rules.
3. Fair review of pilots banned from the site.
4. Resolution of disputes by a jury of our peers.

In fact, the topic that spawned this one arose from a death where Jeremy Bishop (an employee of the Torrey Pines concession) has written the incident report!! So there's no "unbiased committee" reviewing anything that happens at Torrey Pines. There's no oversight at all by the pilot community there. They can cover up anything they want ... and you know it.

Similarly, there's no participation by the pilot community in making rules. There's no fair review of pilots banned from the site. There's no resolution of disputes by a jury of peers. There's none of that, and yet you have the nerve to tell everyone on this forum that "Bob’s 4 points have been supported and addressed more than once and actually happens". If that's true, Steve, then please describe for us how each of those 4 points are implemented at Torrey Pines. Go ahead. That's a challenge to you Steve. Do your homework and report for us how each of those 4 points are implemented.

The rest of your post, Steve, isn't even worth addressing. You are a puppet of the concession and you're here posting because no one from the concession itself has the guts to stand up to any scrutiny or questioning. Where is Jeremy or Robin? Why don't they post their own reports to this forum? Why do they send you as their "messenger boy" to the pilot community? The answer is that they don't want to have to answer any hard questions, so they send you here as their puppet.

Look, I may not be very "diplomatic" with my posts, but I've posted Lyne's own words ... not mine. They tell the story of what's happened to the San Diego paragliding community ... and it isn't pretty. The rest of you can turn your heads or dismiss this as just one person's problems, but I'm telling you it's bigger than that. This is a problem that could use help from the national and even the international paragliding community. We should all be demanding fairness at all of our sites. So I am asking everyone on this forum to stand behind (and demand) the 4 reforms that I've listed again below. These are reasonable demands and they would benefit everyone who flies anything at Torrey Pines:

1. Review of incidents by an unbiased committee.
2. Participation by pilot community in making rules.
3. Fair review of pilots banned from the site.
4. Resolution of disputes by a jury of our peers.

Thanks.
Bob Kuczewski

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 21:44 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


Who exactly is officially (whatever that means) banned from the site and what was the basis for the ban?

Bob you wrote:



Yet you go on to ask Steve and the rest of us (given this is a public forum) to --


In other words you are indeed implying that the reported "bullying" led to her suicide. That seems unfair and frankly disrespectful to her as I suspect that her tragic decision was based on much more than the fact that she was bullied by a few pilots.

It's a free forum and (subject to the moderator's tolerance) you can make your points any way you wish. It is clear you are very angry but it would be great if this could be a more civilized discussion. For instance, some of us might like to engage you by asking questions such as the one above about the ban. However, your style is not conducive to fostering discussion. I know you have it in you because your discussion of the accident itself has been very rationale and constructive.

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 19:29 UTC
Post subject: Hate Mail


I am not sure if anyone is banned right now since they don't advertise it. There may be many pilots who've been told to leave who just left and haven't been back. I do know that Dave Beardslee had been banned for life by David Jebb (with no written reason after multiple requests). I also know that I had been banned for a year (with no written reason after multiple requests). Eventually, I hired a lawyer who examined the lease and the law and basically said to us that if "Jebb won't give you guys a written reason, then go there and fly". We did (after I had defeated Jebb as Regional Director) and we were not challenged. But it was expensive and I'm not sure how many pilots who've been banned would go to that level of effort.

More recently, the current concessionaire (Robin Marien) called the police on May 15th, 2012 (about 2 weeks ago) to remove me just because I was helping a friend kite. He claimed to the police that I had been "harassing" his students which was totally false. When the police came and interviewed everyone, they saw no reason to evict me, and I was allowed to stay. This was a major breakthrough since in the past, the police had always sided with the concessionaire. But after the incident, I asked Robin directly if he was the one who called the police. He said "Yea, and this was just the first step" implying that he would be taking future steps to get me banned from Torrey Pines. This is the same garbage that Jebb used to pull, but Robin isn't a former police officer, so he doesn't have quite as much influence over them. Remember, that was just two weeks ago.

But the big point here is that there should be some form of due process within the pilot community (maybe within the Soaring Council) so that these disputes can be resolved before resorting to the police. Once the police are called and a pilot is evicted, it falls on the pilot's shoulders to go to take the matter to court or to the City Council or some other venue to have their rights restored. How many pilots are willing or able to go through that kind of expensive and time-consuming process? We should have a mechanism within the flying community to keep things from getting to that level.


I do believe that the bullying was a contributing cause to her suicide. You're probably familiar with the phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back". I believe that the bullying might have been just that straw. Someone who kills themselves is likely suffering from a variety of problems, and it's hard to know which problem was the one that caused the final decision. But if you read her letter, she is clearly depressed ... to the point of fear ... about her treatment by a number of people in the paragliding community. Most of them are part of the "in crowd" at Torrey, and I've seen that kind of behavior from them myself. Indeed, I've gotten email threats from someone telling me I should kill myself. If that's the kind of tactic they've used with me, it seems likely that they might have done the same with Lyne. As an example of what Lyne might have gotten, here are some email messages to me (with highlighting added) from someone using the email address "Hater bobk" (f-you-bob_k@hotmail.com) after I had posted that I would be leaving San Diego in late 2010 (note that this forum appears to obliterate some of the foul words which were not obliterated in the original messages):






Those messages were sent to me a few months before Lyne's death. Is it possible that same person was conveying similar hate messages to Lyne?

Also remember that these are the kinds of people that Lyne found at Torrey Pines when she turned to the sport of paragliding for joy in her life. How do you think comments like those would have affected someone who was struggling with other problems in her life? Now read her words again (maybe 100 times?) in the context of people who would send such vile messages.

But to the point of your original question (sorry for the detour), I don't see any inconsistency between my view that the bullying wasn't necessarily the primary reason for her death and still being highly convinced that the bullying was a contributing cause.


Paul, Steve Rohrbaugh is saying things that are not true. If you take the time to track down all of his statements, then I believe you'll come to that conclusion as well. Unfortunately, you (Paul) may be one of the rare exceptions on a forum like this who is willing to ask the hard questions and really evaluate the answers in light of the facts. If you're willing to do that, then you'll find me to be exactly what you said ... rational and constructive.

For now, I'd like to see how Steve replies to my challenges. Steve Rohrbaugh? Are you out there?

Bob Kuczewski

P.S. Thanks for the reply and the PM's Paul. I'll try to do better next time.

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 21:31 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Bob,

Why don't you give up forums for a while, try a hobby, maybe flying?
Seriously you are a disaster when online go away.

Steve Forslund

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 18:35 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics


http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1045
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1048
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1049
http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1050

Steve Forslund, maybe you should check the facts before making public statements that reflect poorly on your research. Furthermore, your post does not address any of the ongoing problems that we've been having at Torrey Pines (the purpose of this topic). Instead, your post reflects the kind of "shut up and go away" attitude that has kept those problems from being resolved for years. Please take a different approach if you want to participate in a constructive conversation. Thanks.

Steve Rohrbaugh, you've made the statement on this forum that you think "Bob’s 4 points have been supported and addressed more than once and actually happens." In response, I have asked you to report to this topic how each of those 4 points are implemented at Torrey Pines. This should be an easy task if you had any factual basis for your post. Your inability to explain how any of those points "have been addressed" is indicative of your lack of knowledge (or lack of honesty) about the situation. I am again asking you to either explain the implementation of those 4 points or admit that they are not being addressed and that you misspoke on the topic. I look forward to your response.

Everyone Else, I'm not sure what kind of forum you want to have here. I'd like to think this is a place where BS walks and facts prevail. If that's the case, then there should be some expectation that Steve Rohrbaugh actually answer the reasonable question that I've asked. He claims that the 4 points I've raised have been addressed, and I've simply asked him to be more specific. If the members of this forum actually want facts, then I ask for your support of my effort to get to the facts. But if you just want a place to swap "there I was" stories, then keep banging my "Karma" into the ground and that's all you'll have left. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps us get to the facts at Torrey Pines.

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 18:53 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Bob,

I think you should seriously consider the possibility that the reason that Steve and others have fallen silent is because they see no upside to engaging with you in what they have come to believe, right or wrong, will be an irrational discussion full of personal attacks on them. After all you have liberally employed name calling in past posts and have gone so far as to suggest that Steve and others were responsible, to some degree, for another pilot’s suicide. Wading back into that voluntarily is a bit masochistic.

Paul

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 20:07 UTC
Post subject: Getting to the Truth


Sure Paul, I don't mind considering that possibility ... as long as you seriously consider the possibility (or better yet, probability) that Steve Rohrbaugh has fallen silent because he knows I've caught him in a BIG LIE and he knows that NONE of the things I've listed are being done right now. Isn't that right Steve?

As I've suggested to you before Paul, if you think Steve can back up his statement - but is too timid to do so in public - then maybe you could ask him privately (via PM?) for a description of how those 4 items are implemented at Torrey Pines. I'd love to hear his response.

For everyone else, I know this probably seems tedious, but this is the painful process of getting to the truth when someone like Steve Rohrbaugh comes onto a public forum and tells a lie. If the paragliding community wants honesty, then we can't back away from holding our fellow members accountable for what they say on this forum. To give Steve a pass would discredit the reliability of all the information that's posted on this forum. Let's stand for getting to the truth and not covering it up. Thanks.

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 21:39 UTC
Post subject: RE: Torrey Pines incident reporting and politics

Okay, it seems this topic does not lead anywhere. This topic is now locked.

We seriously doubt that this international forum is a good platform to solve local problems.

Please don't spread this conflict into other topics.
_________________
The Moderation Team