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 Post subject: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:38 am 
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So I have looked at the Torrey Pines Videos Posted on this Forum. I have not seen this issue that could very Well come up if should indeed go down to Sothern California to do some Flying. My Question is this; if I were to launch from some other San Diego site. Then Fly around. When it was Time for me to Land I chose to land at Torrey Pines. What is the Procedure for when A Pilot After Flying Xc, lands at Torrey Pines. Should said Pilot already have some sort of permission slip in His or Hers Wallet?


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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:15 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_landing
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... y-landings
https://www.quora.com/Under-what-circum ... is-refused

Consider that landing is a kind of "stopping" hang gliding operations. End of flight matter. Done deal.

Consider the key FARs for emergency landings of "aircraft" but that hang gliders may not always be considered "aircraft".

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Last edited by JoeF on Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:28 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_landing
https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... y-landings


Consider that landing is a kind of "stopping" hang gliding operations. End of flight matter. Done deal.

Early modern hang gliding newsletter: "Low, Slow, and Out of Control" Though we get better at landing where we want, the fact is that we do not in hang gliding have full control over our landing spot; we seem ever in emergency mode for landing; we must finally come down when lift is absent. The CA84 note: http://www.airnav.com/airport/ca84
Quote:
Gliderport use: Private use. Permission required prior to landing
But the question regards emergency landing, not normal operations.
Code:

FAA INFORMATION EFFECTIVE 08 SEPTEMBER 2022
==================
Gliderport Ownership and Management from official FAA records
Ownership:    Publicly-owned
Owner:    CITY OF SAN DIEGO
202 C STREET MS 2A
SAN DIEGO, CA 92101
Manager:    MAX MARIEN
2800 TORREY PINES SCENIC DRIVE
JO JOLLA, CA 92037
Phone 858-452-9858
WORK PHONE 619-535-9505 EXT 1585
Additional Remarks
-    GLIDER PORT IS LEASED FM CITY TO THE ASSOCD GLIDER CLUB OF SOUTHERN CALIF FOR STUDENT TRAINING & RIDGE SOARING.
-    ALL ACFT ARE TRAILERED GLIDERS.
-    ROLLING RWY .6 PERCENT GRADIENT.
-    EXTENSIVE HANG GLIDER OPERATIONS ON WEEKENDS AND WEEKDAYS.
-    FOR CD CTC LOS ANGELES ARTCC AT 661-575-2079.
Instrument Procedures
There are no published instrument procedures at CA84.
Some nearby airports with instrument procedures:

KNKX - Miramar MCAS (Joe Foss Field) Airport (5 nm E)
KMYF - Montgomery-Gibbs Executive Airport (7 nm SE)
KSAN - San Diego International Airport (10 nm S)
KNZY - North Island Naval Air Station (Halsey Field) Airport (12 nm S)
KSEE - Gillespie Field Airport (14 nm E)
KCRQ - Mc Clellan-Palomar Airport (14 nm N)
KRNM - Ramona Airport (19 nm NE)


===================
Some interesting discourse regarding ultralights might mold discussions:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... _103-6.pdf
===================
Caution: Perhaps plan to land at some site where one has permission to land; then, if emergency circumstances present, then landing out of that plan might occur, that is, perhaps make Torrey NOT THE PLANNED LANDING SITE, but have some other site planned.
===================

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... h_ch17.pdf
===================
If a landing injures persons or poperty or causes costs of special services, then some notes:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/855.14
===================
What are the rules, if any, about landing a hang glider on the roof of a car that parked on a public road or moving on a public road? [ ]
===================
We HGs are expected to know the nuts and bolts of FAR Part 103 Ultralight Vehicles
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aviation-intere ... ltralights
===================
Get any ATC permissions that might be needed in for a planned XC flight. Consider filing your XC plan; an emergency landing might be that which occurs outside of the plan.
===================

===================

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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:27 pm 
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OK I am fully aware of the fact that Flying an XC flight that would begin from launching from an inland site. Then the Flight would end a number of Miles away at an inland site, then head East towards the Coast {Torrey Pines} would be a difficult Xc Route. For we all know that Flying heading into an Ocean born wind would not be the recipe for Success. But the route would not be a long route. i believe it is only 20 Milers East of Torrey Pines. Any other Site to Site Flight, normally I would not Give the THought of being able to traverse Twenty Miles a second thought. But being that I will be Bucking an Westerly Costal Head Wind. It really in reality be a difficult XC route. Normally I would think nothing of Flying 20 Miles. But I also think that it would be Cool to End My Flight there at Torrey there on the Beach. So as part of doing something like this at all properly. I just now called (858) - 452- 9858 Torrey Pines Gliderport, and I got Permission to Land there.


I once flew an very short Xc Flight from My Home Site of Mount Diablo, I flew XC to Byron California. Google says that it is only `14.95 Miles. Look it is only about a Three Thousand feet High difference between Diablo and Byron.

Si I know that Fifteen Miles is really only a Sled run. Irtt would be a Sled-run for any Top-Less Glider, right? But antways it is just so fun, it will be Awesome for Me to be back in the Air, For up in the Air is My True Home.


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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:01 pm 
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Chris,
Consider getting the permit-to-land in writing. Watch the fireworks.

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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:17 am 
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Look, I have Flown around the Block a couple of times. Well being that when I am Flying again, and I will Fly again. In fact My First Flight just might happen on Sunday providing up here in the Bay Area, We do not have that Dreaded Four letter Word, RAIN. Yes if it is a clear Day. I so hope that Pilot-X and I head out on Sunday where I will take "One Giant Leap for this Predator Pilot". Yes I will Be heading over to the Coast, where I will return to My true home, The Sky!


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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:47 am 
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Location: The Canyons of the Ancients
Yes, and take a film crew with you, and a Torrey qualified HG pilot, and film the whole thing including the flying. "I'm a Master Hang Glider Pilot , why can't I land here at this public park?? oh, I'm not a member. well sue me here I AM.
edit and publish videos (maybe Music) on other platforms. Give it a try, Who knows, You and your team could become a "Steven Crowder", hard hitting type investigative reporter for HG, especially at TPGP, not saying you would want to land there, but if you did, you'd do it in old school style.
What questions could we ask A USHPA member, on film for all to see. Would they even take the challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:28 pm 
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Location: Las Cruces NM 88005 (Region 4)
I can’t remember what the HG/PG flight ceiling is at Torrey Pines due to its close proximity to restricted airspace. Is there a glider that has the glide slope to fly from a mountain launch, stay under the restricted airspace and make it to Torrey Pines?


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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:18 am 
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https://www.flytorrey.com/site-rules/
There seems to be contradictions in the set of rules.
It seems that CA84 communications and "site-rules" of the concessionaire have inconsistencies; there may be over-stepping and contradictions with FARs regarding what happens in the air.
Map:
http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=32.890 ... r48DlAP2qQ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_ ... ted_States)

https://ticc.tamu.edu/Documents/OtherIn ... ymbols.pdf

https://www.californiabeaches.com/attra ... t-soledad/

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/c ... -F/part-91

[ ] Is there an "operational control tower" at CA84 ???????

I am eyeing Del Mar near their beach, just north of Torrey Pines. Del Mar is apparently not "San Diego." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar,_California

Launch from some point in Del Mar Heights; catch thermal lift to gain altitude enough to negotiate reach to main soaring cliffs south of such position????

Del Mar is not in San Diego City, but is part of San Diego County. What does the "County" say about hang gliding in contrast to what San Diego City does about hang gliding? "the city has a total area of 1.8 square miles (4.7 km2)" Tiny! But at its south end, notice some elevations. See: https://www.topozone.com/california/san ... y/del-mar/ Notice the tool at the site that gives various versions of the map: terrain, trails, satellite, topo, and more...
Del Mar surf cam: https://hdontap.com/index.php/video/str ... _mar_beach

Caution on dated information, circa 2010: https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/rfitpg.pdf
Torrey Hawks mentioned in the the document as acknowledge stakeholder. Document has many bits of information that might be massaged to good effects for hang gliding.

Distinguish Torrey Pines State Beach from south Black's Beach of San Diego City Beach. Consider the boundaries involved. Consider authorities over distinctions.

In the future, hang gliding operations that begin and end on ocean-surface platforms may become influential regarding flying the cliff lift at Torrey Pines.
Ocean Hang Gliding.

Stay attentive to Joe Foss Field, Miramar MCAS. The field is close to the soaring cliffs; FARs matter; communications?
https://www.airnav.com/airport/KNKX
http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=32.869 ... r48DlAP2qQ
=====================================================================
Distinguish San Diego City from the County of San Diego

County of San Diego ordinance talks about "in any County park" regarding hang gliding. Focus on "in."
Code:
SEC. 41.129. AIRCRAFT.
   No person shall bring, assemble, take off, land or use any aircraft or any other device capable of carrying a person in the air, including a hot air balloon, hang glider, kite or motorized craft in any County park without written authorization from the Department.
(Amended by Ord. No. 9890 (N.S.), effective 10-26-07; amended by Ord. No. 10412 (N.S.), effective 2-26-16)

================================================
Consider that emergency landing on a parcel of land from the air (distinguish as from the land-to-land entering; maybe some give regarding aerial navigation emergencies has to occur in order to carry out federal airspace navigation matters) might not be trespassing; but to remain on the parcel after the emergency landing might be trespassing; such matter is handled in various ways around the world. Pick up all gear and wing and exit without reentering the parcel, perhaps. Here is a County of San Diego note that guides on lands managed by the County but which lands might be parks:
Code:
SEC. 41.143. OTHER LANDS MANAGED BY THE DEPARTMENT.
   It shall be unlawful for any person to enter or remain on any land the Department manages or controls, that is not designated as a County park, without written authorization from the Department.
(Amended by Ord. No. 9890 (N.S.), effective 10-26-07; amended by Ord. No. 10412 (N.S.), effective 2-26-16)


==================

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 Post subject: Re: Landing at Torrey Pines Question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:05 am 
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Location: Reseda California
I think they will let you land there once. The second time they will find out where you launched from and then ban the procedure of launching there and landing at Torrey. The Tree Toppers/Henson Gap/Lookout Mountain have dealt with this same issue out in Tennessee. It is not a new issue and it is resolved the same way each time.

For safety reason you can land once because the alternative creates danger etc.
Doug Martens


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