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Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:09 am

I suppose it was inevitable ...

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ID: 7066
name: Bob Hawk
time: 2015-09-17 02:56:26
ban id: 26366 U
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DavisStraub.com
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby DaveSchy » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:42 am

Coming from Dweebus, it is an honor, Bob. Consider the source... :srofl:
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby JoeF » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:14 am

Same day a very core HG topic was forced moved to "Off Topic".
Go figure.
A PG impolite interrupter came in on a topic to deride the poster instead of carefully facing the issue.
The Mark Forbes insertion about the openness of his old org to morph and change focus was being faced carefully by illustrations of fuel-less flight systems with aircraft launch-powered by human power alone. The old org of Mark F.'s has yet still such an inclusiveness and morphability that it can get away from hang gliding and into other disciplines; indeed, the canopy parachuting is taking over in a non-stop manner; one day Mark's org could become a golfing org where the aircraft is a ball launched by the pilot's power.

You may see and add to the now "Off Topic" discussion thread at Oz Report, if you like; it is fun.

But notice,
a new national hang gliding org would use the topic results to form language that could be fitting and appropriate to talk to the communities that are practicing those other fuel-less flight systems with aircraft launched by human power. The topic is not complete; anyone may add to the topic.
Topic title: Mark's org:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44151

Except Bob cannot post now on that topic.

Think of a fuel-less flight system where the aircraft involved is launched by human power. Post notes and references.
Fun.
Such activities may be seen as preambles to hang gliding.
And the topic is directly related to hang gliding via the Mark Forbes' seed.
It seems like to me that Davis may be protecting Mark Forbes in a favorite-son manner; no reason was given to me for the move to "Off Topic". Growing hang gliding may well have to face the morphability of Mark's old org. And a gem: growing hang gliding may arrive in large part by being able to tap into the flight dreams that may be swimming about in the activities of the topic thread.

I asked Steve F. to carefully study the matter and see if he will address his very impolite interruption to the topic that may have triggered Davis to take a hang gliding topic away from the hang gliding sector of his forum. Steve did not post on topic, but simply ripped in personal attack on the poster starter. I await Steve's reply; I asked Steve F. to request of Davis a move of the topic back where the topic belongs ... the matters directly affecting hang gliding. The issue is directly affecting hang gliding in US, at least, as the u$hPa Mark's org does not firmly focus and also holds out to reformat at any time to focus on some non-hang-gliding "fuel-less flight systems and aircraft capable of being launched by human power alone," which could include any of hundreds of activities that humans have discovered and are practicing.
Last edited by JoeF on Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:17 am

Mine was better.
It said, "You are banned forever!"
Image
Oz Report had become too much like Paragliding Forum so I packed up my cookies and went home.
That was several years ago.
I'm not sure what percentage of "forever" that is.
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby JoeF » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:46 am

Is it fact or not: It seems that Davis may have also deleted your post:

Bob Hawk wrote:There's a well-known saying: "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."

Look at the magazine every month and ask how long it will be until hang gliding is inconsequential to USHPA's business. Ask how long it will be until it's impossible to elect a single hang gliding Director in any Region.

Of course, everything's fine and dandy if there are no conflicts at your local site. Crestline is my favorite example of that situation and I'm sure there are many others.

But then look at a site where one wing (PG in this case) is squeezing the other out of existence. Torrey is my favorite example of that situation. That's when you see just how useless a combined organization can be.

There are 4 aircraft types at Torrey: sailplanes, RCs, hang gliders and paragliders. The Torrey Pines Soaring Council is supposed to be made up of a "fair" proportion of each. Here's how that looks right now:

Rep #1 - AGCSC (sailplane pilot)
Rep #2 - SSA (sailplane pilot)
Rep #3 - AMA (RC pilot)
Rep #4 - Gulls (RC pilot)
Rep #5 - SSS (RC pilot)
Rep #6 - USHPA (mostly PG pilot)
Rep #7 - SDHGPA (PG pilot)

Where's the dedicated hang gliding pilot? There is none because both of the "HG/PG" clubs have chosen primarily paragliding pilots.

The RC clubs would fight tooth and nail to keep each of their 3 seats. They don't let any of them be "RC/HG" or "RC/PG" seats. They ensure that those seats vote for RC issues. The same is true of the sailplane seats.

But because we're a "combined" organization, hang gliding gets essentially ZERO representation on that Council.

Davis will likely remember the day (back in the spring of 2010) when the USHPA Board voted to pass my resolution to work to increase our representation on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council so we could get more representation for our sports (presumably both of them). What has been done in over 5 years? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Now imagine if USHPA had been two organizations all these years. The early makeup of the Soaring Council (before PG came along) was 2 HG, 2 RC, and 2 sailplane. If PG had stayed in their own organization, do you think an all hang gliding USHGA would have given up their two seats to share with the PGs? No way. Of course not. What would have happened is that the PGs would have argued for their own representation, and if all went well, they would have gotten their own 2 seats. So the Council would have looked like this:

Rep #1 - AGCSC (sailplane pilot)
Rep #2 - SSA (sailplane pilot)
Rep #3 - AMA (RC pilot)
Rep #4 - Gulls (RC pilot)
Rep #5 - SSS (RC pilot)
Rep #6 - USHGA (HG pilot)
Rep #7 - SDHGA (HG pilot)
Rep #8 - USPGA (PG pilot)
Rep #9 - SDPGA (PG pilot)

Looky there. Our combined sports would have had twice the representation that we have now. Furthermore, we'd have had 2 representatives on the Council who would have cared exclusively about hang gliding. Instead, we have none.

Let's use round numbers and say that USHPA has about 10,000 members, and it's roughly 6,000 PG and 4,000 HG. The sport of hang gliding would be much much better off to have the resources of 4,000 members fully dedicated to hang gliding than having the resources of 10,000 members mostly dedicated to paragliding. Remember the 2 wolves and a sheep? The vote of 6.000 members will always defeat the vote of 4,000 members when an issue becomes contentious. That's why we've had ZERO support at Torrey. We haven't had 50%, or 45%, or 40%. We've gotten 0%.

And if that wasn't enough, imagine how important hang gliding would be in a combined national "hang gliding and scuba diving" organization - using Angelo's estimate of 1,000,000 to 10,000? That's why each sport (whether huge or tiny) tends to form its own organization. That's what hang gliding needs to do if we want to survive and thrive again.

Back to Mark Forbes:

Mgforbes wrote:Our sport has many facets, and we on the BOD think that it's good to be inclusive of all the diverse aspects of foot-launched flight. Some may disagree with that; if so, we have elections for regional directors and you can run for the position and make your argument that we're doing it all wrong.


Elections for Regional Directors? Remember the "two wolves and a sheep" analogy, and you'll see right through Mark's "solution" to this problem.

The bottom line is that hang gliding needs an organization that will sink or swim on the survival of hang gliding alone. That's the only way we're going to get dedicated support and dedicated resources helping our sport. With USHPA, all of your money is in the hands of an increasingly PG-centric Board and membership. Think about it.

By the way, for anyone who's forgotten, I'm an H4/P4 pilot, and I would be speaking up for fairness to PG pilots if things were reversed. I'm not a "PG hater" or "anti-PG". I just want fairness for both sports and right now HG is in deep trouble. I do believe there are PDMC-related problems with paragliding, and that might be another reason for separation. But I'm not even having to rely on that argument for the analysis I've presented here. This is just by the numbers.

Thanks Davis.
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:45 am

Rick Masters wrote:That was several years ago.I'm not sure what percentage of "forever" that is.

:srofl:    Davis tightly controls what his readers are allowed to see. It reminds me of the Iron Curtian.

Joe Faust wrote:Is it fact or not: It seems that Davis may have also deleted your post

I can't tell since I can no longer view the Oz Forum. But the post you've quoted should still be there since I didn't delete it.

This was my last post amplifying my previos point about the difference between a purely HG organization and an HG/PG organization:

I'd like to put my point in more concrete terms …

- I have started a specifically hang gliding club at Torrey Pines

- I have worked to defend HG pilots like Dave Beardslee who was unjustly banned

- I have worked to increase hang gliding representation on the Soaring Council

- I have supported regular monthly hang gliding fly-ins at Torrey

- I have founded a national organization dedicated to hang gliding

- I have built (with help) a small outreach glider named Little Hawk

- I have used Little Hawk at UCSD to get students interested in hang gliding

- I have facilitated free HG tandem flights for those students

- I have used Little Hawk to invite public participation in hang gliding at Torrey

- I have supported the resurgence of the Otto Meet hang gliding celebrations

Now ask yourself how a purely hang gliding organization would view those actions. Then remind yourself that USHPA viewed them as … grounds for expulsion.

Each of those items starts with an "I", but that's not the point. It's not about me. It's about how we can build a future for hang gliding inside an organization that punishes such actions rather than rewarding them.

USHPA has NOT supported my efforts at Torrey because Torrey is a booming paragliding business and USHPA is just fine with that. Would a purely hang gliding organization take that same position?

I suppose that's gone too.

Did Davis make any announcement about the ban or deleting my posts? Or did they simply "disappear"?
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:23 am

DaveSchy wrote:Coming from Dweebus, it is an honor, Bob. Consider the source... :srofl:

Thanks Dave!!!

I just hope that pilots can see how Davis operates so those who value an open forum will look for an alternative.
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby JoeF » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:27 am

I've seen no explanation.
Seems disappearance without note occurred.

Davis seems also to permit severe personal attacks over persons.
Sad to lose a potentially good forum at Oz.

The deep censoring at Jack's site and the preferential censoring of even on-topic matter at Davis' site
results in a huge loss for the hang gliding community.
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:43 am

JoeF wrote:I've seen no explanation.
Seems disappearance without note occurred.


I think most repressive regimes have found that to be the best approach. While making a public "example" of someone (as USHPA has done) has intimidation value, there's always the risk of an uprising. The safe bet is to take them away in the middle of the night and never mention the deed.

JoeF wrote:Davis seems also to permit severe personal attacks over persons.


Yes, that's why it's so important for Davis to delete my "offending" posts ... so people can't even make the comparison.

JoeF wrote:Sad to lose a potentially good forum at Oz.

The deep censoring at Jack's site and the preferential censoring of even on-topic matter at Davis' site
results in a huge loss for the hang gliding community.


I agree on all counts. I also believe that the censoring at Oz has roots in Davis's connections to USHPA. You'll notice that Mark Forbes couldn't stand up to any of my questions or comments, so Davis had to give him a way out. He'll get his back scratched somewhere down the line.

It just confirms that we really do need an alternative. I was getting comfortable with Oz for a while there, and this was a good reminder as to why we've been building the US Hawks!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Banned from Oz ... again

Postby Frank Colver » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:44 am

GO HAWKS! :!:
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